Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[MaxwellSmart]

C's/Lakers Finals.

[Ernest]

Donnie Does gts hired by the Shanghai Sharks.

Watch on YouTube

[Fencer reregistered]

I don't think it was shabby at all. He's 33 years old, looking for his last big contract. He got the big offer and took it. The Sixers felt that they were one lucky bounce away from the NBA finals. They're in win now mode and were willing to overpay. Ainge did what Belichick does: he had a value for the player and would not be railroaded into paying more. Also, Horford's cap hold would have meant no Kemba.

Well, actually, there's a price in assets that could have gotten us both Horford and Kemba, mainly enough bribes to Brooklyn to make Irving a S&T, plus whatever else if anything would have been needed to both match Kemba's salary for trade purposes and stay under the hard cap. But that course would also have been costly in financial and some extent basketball terms because of luxury tax repeater penalties.

[Triple7]

Looking at Smart's shooting breakdown I think what we saw last year was first of all 80 games, the dude was healthy, he shot less off the dribble and more catch and shoot. This also at least to my minds eye cut down on the ill advised early in the shot clock 3 (he also had no half court heaves). I also think getting the contract done really helped his confidence and just let him play a little more free.

He really isn't all that far off the Chauncey Billups development path I have always hoped for him. Billups turned the corner at 24 years old and in his 4th season. He came into the league a year older than Smart and had more injury issues.

It will be fascinating to see how CBS handles the line up decisions and their impact. Coming off of the heels of last season's chemistry failure this year is going to be even more muddy. The team essentially has two starters in Walker and Tatum, and then you have 3 guys in Brown, Hayward, and Smart who are NBA starters and only one of them may be able to be in the starting line up unless they can combine with Tatum to rebound well enough to get by with him at the PF spot. Add to that you have 3 rookies in Langford, Williams, and Edwards who are locked and loaded offensively which is great but they have also been primary options since the minute the stepped on the floor.

What do you guys make of the Kemba signing in relation to Smart? To me it seems a pretty big no confidence vote to Smart as a starting PG. There's just literally no way he gets significant minutes running the team with the other starters to complete that Billups progression anymore. The FO has either resigned themselves to Smart always being just the ultimate glue guy/bench contributor, or pushed him to starting SG to make up for a short/defensively deficient scoring PG now? I really wanted to see a Smart/Brown/Tatum starting lineup and let all of them grow their playmaking skills and see what we had. Obviously, there's time with Kemba not out there, but it's not the same thing as handing him the ball and making him the starting 1.

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Smart can’t run the show on a contender, and most especially can’t be the point guard on a championship team. He’s just a really good role player, a 6th man on a contending team. His skill making is decent, but is no where near good. We need him for his excellent defense and leadership. If you think that the celtics would trade Kemba, even if its for an equal star, then you are highly mistaken. That would be a suicide move for a franchise, unless kemba demands it himself. No free agent star would sign here again if we do that. I like smart and his worth here is undeniable, but at the end of the day, he’s just a role player.

[Fencer reregistered]

Reddit sucks, but this is the first time on here that I wish we could down vote. Such negativity. End of the day- we have a good team. It will be a fun year. Good owners. good management. Calm the duck down!

Larry Bird said no players listens to coaches after was it third season.. I will side with Larry Bird. Vote down Bird and tell me why you think you know more about NBA basketball than Larry Bird?

Red Auerbach disagrees. So does Greg Popovich. Those coaches did fine.

Tommy's tenure was well shorter than either of theirs, but it was longer than 3 years. So was Doc's, but that one may not count against the Bird dictum, since what he won with was a substantially new roster. But then, the Celtics roster is substantially new as well -- the only guys on the roster who've been here more than two seasons (and this amazed me when I first realized it) are Smart and Brown.

[Shak_Celts]

That's definitely not what is happening here. I'm a big Marcus here guy since forever ago. What I am saying here is that (a) Marcus been doing it for years now, (b) that a bunch of stat-biased people here hated on him and his supporters super, super hard for multiple seasons, (c) the truth came out in the wash on that, (d) those same folks are trying to not only duck that L they clearly earned by pointing to scoring efficiency stats that are insignificant relative to his scoring usage, and that (e) despite being asked to do too much the season before last due to us missing two All-Stars, he actually had a significantly bigger contribution to a a team that was significantly more successful.

Tell me what part of that you are confused about, and I will be happy to educate you.

Couldn't shoot, now he can, where's the issue? Saying that he couldn't shoot and he should have taken less, has nothing to do with what else he brings. I wish everybody would just take this supposed L, even people who don't deserve it, because it seems like it means a lot to you. I'll be the first! *hugging* the L. Satisfied?

I don't like to get into these types of "arguments" because they are nothing more than spirit drainers. I'm not bothered when a "told you" comes out (right or wrong) but to drag it on and on is so petty.

We'd never have these conversations if people didn't go in for years on people for takes they weren't even wrong about. I got dragged for years and years by IT fanboys over supporting Smart and saying we should have tanked a little harder. And now we are going to pretend they were right all along because Smart makes an extra basket every five games?

Nope!

No problem, keep it going. Just thinking aloud that it's supposed to be about the Cs not who is the most right and now let's shove the crow down the throat at every turn. Still have no problem with the occasional "I told you so!" but it went beyond that and started to Jack the thread. I have no issue with you, this isn't a big deal. I had many debates about IT4 and how I thought his play was overrated in some ways, trust me, I know how they roll. Can't take it to heart.

[Fencer reregistered]

Couldn't shoot, now he can, where's the issue? Saying that he couldn't shoot and he should have taken less, has nothing to do with what else he brings. I wish everybody would just take this supposed L, even people who don't deserve it, because it seems like it means a lot to you. I'll be the first! *hugging* the L. Satisfied?

I don't like to get into these types of "arguments" because they are nothing more than spirit drainers. I'm not bothered when a "told you" comes out (right or wrong) but to drag it on and on is so petty.

We'd never have these conversations if people didn't go in for years on people for takes they weren't even wrong about. I got dragged for years and years by IT fanboys over supporting Smart and saying we should have tanked a little harder. And now we are going to pretend they were right all along because Smart makes an extra basket every five games?

Nope!

No problem, keep it going. Just thinking aloud that it's supposed to be about the Cs not who is the most right and now let's shove the crow down the throat at every turn. Still have no problem with the occasional "I told you so!" but it went beyond that and started to Jack the thread. I have no issue with you, this isn't a big deal. I had many debates about IT4 and how I thought his play was overrated in some ways, trust me, I know how they roll. Can't take it to heart.

In fairness, Cave has cut back on the frequency with which he poisons discussion. I wouldn't be here now if he were still doing it at his old rate. Perhaps we can learn to tolerate this level of awfulness. And of course -- presumably with a few exceptions -- none of us knows much about the other's lives. Perhaps he has some demons that drive him relentlessly to do this.

[Shak_Celts]

C's/Lakers Finals.

No. Cs/Clips! I don't want them to have any chance if we sustain an injury or something. Too many things can go wrong and I'll hate the bball gods forever!

[Shak_Celts]

I don't get the ire, though. If Horford re-signs, do the Celtics have the ability to acquire Walker? Does Kanter come to Boston if Horford is here? Perhaps there exists some scenario where they retain Horford and then they get a guard with the same salary exception they acquired Kanter with. So like the options are Horford+guard or Kemba+Kanter. Which is better? I'm thinking the latter. Also, who cares what players do with their free agency? Maybe he just wanted to play on a team he thought had a better shot at a championship, maybe he flipped a coin, maybe he liked the idea of playing next to Embiid as opposed to Aron Baynes, maybe his wife likes Philly more than Boston. Philly could have easily said, sign this now or the offer is pulled, we have other players we have to go pursue if you turn it down.

Also I really wouldn't have wanted the Celtics to match that 3+1/100 deal anyway, would you? The downside seems significant, especially if Hayward doesn't return to form and you're paying 70 million to Horford+Hayward in 2021 and also now you have Jaylen Brown+Jayson Tatum on, or seeking, max RFA tenders. A similar downside exists with Walker, sure, but he's proven to be much healthier than Horford and also four years younger.

Oh, I don't have any special animosity toward Horford. I will think about him like I do all non-Celtics players. That's not kindly.

You are correct, though, getting Kemba Walker would have been almost impossible if Al had resigned in Boston. There was a S&T possibility, but I never thought Irving/Nets would have helped the C's pull that off. I'm disappointed Horford isn't back, not angry about it. <shrug>

Personally, I think Kemba + Kanter is going to be an improvement on offense and not much of a step back defensively, so I'm happy with what Danny was able to do. I'm optimistic that the Celtics are going to surprise a lot of experts this year. As a normal pessimist that's a strange situation for me to be in, too.

Oh, and as for Hayward, I am completely convinced that he'll be 100% back to his Utah level of play this year. Why am I being so optimistic? That's not normal...

At least you aren't staking your RGM life on this, I say go over the top in your predictions and optimism, it's fun!

[Shak_Celts]

We'd never have these conversations if people didn't go in for years on people for takes they weren't even wrong about. I got dragged for years and years by IT fanboys over supporting Smart and saying we should have tanked a little harder. And now we are going to pretend they were right all along because Smart makes an extra basket every five games?

Nope!

No problem, keep it going. Just thinking aloud that it's supposed to be about the Cs not who is the most right and now let's shove the crow down the throat at every turn. Still have no problem with the occasional "I told you so!" but it went beyond that and started to Jack the thread. I have no issue with you, this isn't a big deal. I had many debates about IT4 and how I thought his play was overrated in some ways, trust me, I know how they roll. Can't take it to heart.

In fairness, Cave has cut back on the frequency with which he derails discussion. And of course -- presumably with a few exceptions -- none of us knows much about the other's lives.

No, don't say this, it's going to start again. Come on, we don't have to get along but please no attacking people!

I'm glad I'm not a mod, woo y'all can bite!

[jirrit]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Ray took less money to go to the team we just lost to in a 7 game series instead of coming back and trying to beat them.

Horford took more money to go to a team we've owned daddy style for a decade.

Nobody is really mad at the sixers locking themselves in to one of the worst contracts out there for a guy clearly on the decline.

I mean, at 15-20m for 3 years we could still use Al. for 109m over 4 years, 91m guaranteed... Have fun in Philly AL!

I was gonna answer this

To me a lot had to do with the hard fought series we had - and lost - with Lebron. The loyal competetive person in me just can imagine joining the enemy at that moment in these exact circumstances. Just no. Never ever would it even cross in my mind, not for 1 billion even. I’m battling with my guys. And I know business is business and he could have gotten traded.

[Triple7]

Has the Horford Tampering article been talked about yet? Kind of a who cares, but I was thinking about Horford earlier. It's amazing he's not getting any hate on here after Ray got so much hate for so long for a somewhat comparable thing.

Ray took less money to go to the team we just lost to in a 7 game series instead of coming back and trying to beat them.

Horford took more money to go to a team we've owned daddy style for a decade.

Nobody is really mad at the sixers locking themselves in to one of the worst contracts out there for a guy clearly on the decline.

I mean, at 15-20m for 3 years we could still use Al. for 109m over 4 years, 91m guaranteed... Have fun in Philly AL!

I was gonna answer this

To me a lot had to do with the hard fought series we had - and lost - with Lebron. The loyal competetive person in me just can imagine joining the enemy at that moment in these exact circumstances. Just no. Never ever would it even cross in my mind, not for 1 billion even. I’m battling with my guys. And I know business is business and he could have gotten traded.

What Ray did was what KD has done, and deservingly had the same reactions from fans. Of course what KD did was worse doing it in his prime.

[eris]

C's/Lakers Finals.

No. Cs/Clips! I don't want them to have any chance if we sustain an injury or something. Too many things can go wrong and I'll hate the bball gods forever!

How about Cs/Rockets and everybody can laugh at both LA teams?

[Shak_Celts]

C's/Lakers Finals.

No. Cs/Clips! I don't want them to have any chance if we sustain an injury or something. Too many things can go wrong and I'll hate the bball gods forever!

How about Cs/Rockets and everybody can laugh at both LA teams?

Lol yep! I'll take it. Was only thinking about LAC rubbing more salt into LAL wound.

Let's go with teams I don't dislike instead, Blazers/Den/Sactown

I'd take OKC too considering what they'd have to do to get there, even though I'm not too fond of CP3 anymore.

[amory87]

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Thank you! That's how I feel. And it feels weird that no one is saying it. I think it's because he just smiled all the time and his dad was always in the audience and shown on camera.

But if we want to really dive deep. And, no, we don't. But, who cares, we are now: Rays mom was also always on camera and Ray was also always smiling. Get out your aluminum caps folks! We got something here!

The horfords loved Boston. Anna Horford was having a meltdown for a week after Al announced he was leaving. It was a business decision and frankly it was the right move for him, moneywise and winning wise

[Darth Celtic]

Do what we did with Smart. Let him hit the market with the threat to match any offer sheet. Try to drive down his market value that way.

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.

It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

[Captain_Caveman]

In fairness, Cave has cut back on the frequency with which he poisons discussion. I wouldn't be here now if he were still doing it at his old rate. Perhaps we can learn to tolerate this level of awfulness. And of course -- presumably with a few exceptions -- none of us knows much about the other's lives. Perhaps he has some demons that drive him relentlessly to do this.

In fairness, this has nothing to do with you. And some of these discussions were poisoned looooong ago. These dudes were allowed to tee off on anyone who defended Smart, just like they teed off on anyone who didn't think IT was the savior, or anyone who thinks we should have maybe tanked for players better than Smart in the first place. I don't think any of that worked out too well, but guess that's me.

FWIW, been reading your posts for almost 20 years and have never gotten personal with you. You don't need to start now just because I am calling out others on their sports takes.

[Darth Celtic]

The FO has to be kidding, getting pissed about tampering. They pretty blatantly tampered to get Kemba. It happens with every player worth having, and it sounds like they're mostly just grumpy that Horford got a sneak peek at his open market value which killed their chances of signing him to a sweetheart deal. Boo hoo. Good for Al.

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Why would anyone with half a brain want to return to Brad Steveen's **** show? I bet if you were buddies with Tatum or Jaylen Brown they would be telling you they want off the Celtics. How would any normal person want to show up at work that day knowing their boss wants them gone? That is Danny. I would also want to go even to Utah and be wanted than work for Danny. I could not wait to get away from bad Brad and Smart also. The only reason Tatum and Brown stay with Brad and Danny running the Celtics is money and they are stuck here. Hopefully some of these new players make playing ball again fun.

Another quality post.

Good thing nobody wants to play here with Stevens and Danny, would hate to have to pay multiple time all start Kemba Walker and Kanter all that money.

Sometimes takes are so bad on this board it hurts my eyes to even read them.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't think it was shabby at all. He's 33 years old, looking for his last big contract. He got the big offer and took it. The Sixers felt that they were one lucky bounce away from the NBA finals. They're in win now mode and were willing to overpay. Ainge did what Belichick does: he had a value for the player and would not be railroaded into paying more. Also, Horford's cap hold would have meant no Kemba.

Well, actually, there's a price in assets that could have gotten us both Horford and Kemba, mainly enough bribes to Brooklyn to make Irving a S&T, plus whatever else if anything would have been needed to both match Kemba's salary for trade purposes and stay under the hard cap. But that course would also have been costly in financial and some extent basketball terms because of luxury tax repeater penalties.

The Nets had no incentive to do a sign-and-trade on reasonable terms. Just because something is theoretically possible doesn't mean that it can be achieved in the real world.

Al's a good player and his departure will hurt the Celtics for the next several years. After that, his contract may become a millstone for the Sixers. Al also wanted to play pf, which means that Hayward, Brown or Tatum would have to come off the bench. If you believe that Hayward is back to where he was in Utah, and if you believe in the development of Tatum and Brown, that's not a good outcome. In effect Al wanted better load management with Baynes or a Baynes type doing the dirty work. Ainge wasn't willing to pay top dollar for that.

[zoyathedestroya]

Useless Stat Time!: Kanter and Kemba were both drafted in 2011. Ever since they came into the league, no point guard has played in more regular season games than Kemba Walker (605 games). The only centers who have played in more regular season games than Kanter (583) are DeAndre Jordan (616) and Robin Lopez (588). I imagine Enes had a bunch of DNP-CDs in his time in NY.