Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[Captain_Caveman]

This is why stats are important because they stop memory bias from gas lighting you. I know what you are talking about Smart's hustle and effort nailing down a couple of wins but it was in fact a couple of wins. First of all he was only involved in 38 wins the whole season. The team was 6 and 5 with him as a starter. They were better with him in the line up but that line up also included Irving.

17/18 seasons split's almost sum up this situation. Smart scored more ppg (12) and shot the ball better (40%/38%) in the teams losses than its wins (9ppg/35%/25%). His ORTG in both the wins and losses that year was a gross 96 the difference is on the defensive end where he had a DRTG of 102 in wins and 110 in the losses.

Now this past season we saw a player whose production was the same in wins and loses for the most part shot the ball better in the wins on lower usage. He had a DRTG of 103 in the wins and 117 in the losses and actually added an ORTG of 114 in the wins against a pretty respectable 108 in the losses. He was a +13 in the wins and a -11 in the losses.

While last year wasn't a great year chemistry wise for this team it was a fantastic year for an effective and efficient Marcus Smart in stark comparison to the offensive **** show it had been previously.

OK, but two years ago, Smart had a bigger role and more impact on a more successful team, despite them being younger with far less talent and depth. Do we agree on that?

And this year, he likely had more favorable scoring opportunities playing in a starting lineup that was far more talented offensively than the bench unit he had led the previous season? And that there was also a lesser need for him to try to force the issue make up for injuries compared to the year before? And that this difference in role and offensive teammates would naturally have a positive impact on his scoring efficiency all by itself?

I mean, I get stats as well as anyone here. They are a great tool that can provide nice insights. But there are often used to lend a fake validity to arguments. I mean, I have laid out comprehensive, basic, and repetitive arguments here that put those stats into a larger context that some of you here are not even addressing at all.

[cloverleaf]

Yeah, all that's pretty much the way I see it, but I think part of the problem is Al really didn't give the C's a chance to match Philly's deal. It sounds like the C's might have matched the 3 year deal with team option on year 4, but (a) that's not how it was stated prior to the signing and (b) it appears Horford didn't negotiate with the C's at all.

We all thought Horford liked it in Boston and would prefer to stay there. He clearly didn't and how he left felt like a slap in the face. From Irving it was almost expected, but not from Horford.

Leaving like he did feels shabby. Not Ray Allen shabby, but shabby none the less.

Thank you! That's how I feel. And it feels weird that no one is saying it. I think it's because he just smiled all the time and his dad was always in the audience and shown on camera.

But if we want to really dive deep. And, no, we don't. But, who cares, we are now: Rays mom was also always on camera and Ray was also always smiling. Get out your aluminum caps folks! We got something here!

The horfords loved Boston. Anna Horford was having a meltdown for a week after Al announced he was leaving. It was a business decision and frankly it was the right move for him, moneywise and winning wise

Anna, like Danny, brought up that Al had hoped to be able to play more 4 here and basically had to mostly play the 5. So from that perspective this may be a self-inflicted wound on the team's part--or a dodged bullet, if you think an expensive extension would have become a drag on the team as his level of play continues to decline.

And it is yet to be seen if it was the right move for Al, winning wise.

[MagicBagley18]

Have a few thoughts on this. Smart is really good, and it certainly is in the teams interest and Smarts interest to let him start and the 1. But we just signed Kemba. If there was a Kemba who played the 4 or 5 and wanted to come here, I think we would have din that instead. I think Ainge just tought, I need to get the most talent possible. Walker was free. Better than any big we could have got. That's why I'm interested in Walker deals around the deadline. I think Smart could run the show. If we could make the super rare lateral move, whre we get a good big, I'd probably be for it.

I got **** all over on the main board for asking what possible deals for Walker could be on the table around the trade deadline. It's a fair question.

Man, if ainge wanted assets he could have taken on bad contracts for draft picks with the cap space. No disrespect but use your head.

But then we'd suck. And our chances of getting good free agents next year would be much lower. How about you use your head. If we are going to be rude. Think about it- once you get to be a good team, you really need to stay a good team. We had a quick bounce back after the big 3, but that's not the norm.

Let's not be rude, though. I really like your posts on here.

Yea...the way to get more free agents is to trade away the free agent you just signed in 6 months. Smart move. The guy just committed 4 year of his life here, moved his family and bought into us and then we trade him. I can see the free agents just flocking to sign here after that. Genius move.

I’m sure his agent (one of the most influential in the league) will be pushing guys here again soon.

[MagicBagley18]

If you trade him, smart and filler for Beal with maybe the Bucks pick, sure. You don't dump him for another pick or prospect. You don't know what he is yet, or what he will be offered. Not a lot of cap space next year as teams are saving it for 2021 mass market again. Who offers him this max? Worst thing is you match it, wait a year, then trade it for a Max you feel is better and the griz top 3 pick.

There was no reason to dump rozier/smart/ or JB early. They are not unrestricted free agents and max for him is only like 27m.

Smart got us Smart on a great contract. Rozier got us a 2nd round pick cheap insurance in case we didn't get Kemba/Kyrie. JB is our Hayward still Sucks insurance.

It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

[zoyathedestroya]

It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

Salary cap is already projected to go up. The final numbers are determined just before the beginning of free agency (June 30th 2020 next offseason), but the numbers below are close estimates.

https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/info/salary_cap

So Jaylen's max is really closer to $29.25M (25% of salary cap next season).

[Triple7]

It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

How much is he really worth? I mean, Rozier did get 19M. I fully expect him to get better next season, but not so dramatic, especially with kemba, Tatum, a much improved Hayward, and possibly Kanter.

[MagicBagley18]

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

How much is he really worth? I mean, Rozier did get 19M. I fully expect him to get better next season, but not so dramatic, especially with kemba, Tatum, a much improved Hayward, and possibly Kanter.

I mean yes terry is making 19...remember whose signing the checks tho. The hornets. Arguably the most inept team in the league. I agree I don’t think he’s goimg to get dramatically better either that’s why I’m a fan of seeing what’s out there and if it’s the right fit and a talented player- trading him.

[Triple7]

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

How much is he really worth? I mean, Rozier did get 19M. I fully expect him to get better next season, but not so dramatic, especially with kemba, Tatum, a much improved Hayward, and possibly Kanter.

I mean yes terry is making 19...remember whose signing the checks tho. The hornets. Arguably the most inept team in the league. I agree I don’t think he’s goimg to get dramatically better either that’s why I’m a fan of seeing what’s out there and if it’s the right fit and a talented player- trading him.

I agree. Its a wait and see for Brown. Same goes with hayward i guess.

[sam_I_am]

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

How much is he really worth? I mean, Rozier did get 19M. I fully expect him to get better next season, but not so dramatic, especially with kemba, Tatum, a much improved Hayward, and possibly Kanter.

I mean yes terry is making 19...remember whose signing the checks tho. The hornets. Arguably the most inept team in the league. I agree I don’t think he’s goimg to get dramatically better either that’s why I’m a fan of seeing what’s out there and if it’s the right fit and a talented player- trading him.

Every team can accommodate 2 max players. Some can have 3-4 like GSW planned if Durant stayed. Easily 60 players get a max. To think Jaylen will get less as FA is insane. However, security might make him accept a little less. If he doesn’t love Boston or want to stay here long term....no way he accepts less.

[MagicBagley18]

How much is he really worth? I mean, Rozier did get 19M. I fully expect him to get better next season, but not so dramatic, especially with kemba, Tatum, a much improved Hayward, and possibly Kanter.

I mean yes terry is making 19...remember whose signing the checks tho. The hornets. Arguably the most inept team in the league. I agree I don’t think he’s goimg to get dramatically better either that’s why I’m a fan of seeing what’s out there and if it’s the right fit and a talented player- trading him.

Every team can accommodate 2 max players. Some can have 3-4 like GSW planned if Durant stayed. Easily 60 players get a max. To think Jaylen will get less as FA is insane. However, security might make him accept a little less. If he doesn’t love Boston or want to stay here long term....no way he accepts less.

Exactly why I’m trying to trade him...that’s what we are saying

[Darthlukey]

It’s 29 according to zoya and that’s not exactly cheap....I agree trade him for an all star who fits if u can. I’d like Beal. Don’t think we can get him.

This year it was 27.2m. Look at what DLo signed for. That's the max for that year of player. Sure, it's a % of the cap and if the cap makes a huge jump next year it could go up. Zinger also signed for 27.2m. Unless the cap goes up, it will be 27.2m. not 29. Not like 1.8m is worth splitting hairs over, but it's not currently 29m.

You’re right let’s not split hairs. Anything over 20 I’m not paying to brown unless he makes a dramatic leap this season.

I actually fully agree with this, as annoying as it is

[Curmudgeon]

Brown isn't stupid and he's his own agent. Offer him 20 with max raises and a trade kicker and he'll take it.

[Slartibartfast]

I mean yes terry is making 19...remember whose signing the checks tho. The hornets. Arguably the most inept team in the league. I agree I don’t think he’s goimg to get dramatically better either that’s why I’m a fan of seeing what’s out there and if it’s the right fit and a talented player- trading him.

Every team can accommodate 2 max players. Some can have 3-4 like GSW planned if Durant stayed. Easily 60 players get a max. To think Jaylen will get less as FA is insane. However, security might make him accept a little less. If he doesn’t love Boston or want to stay here long term....no way he accepts less.

Exactly why I’m trying to trade him...that’s what we are saying

I think we should trade Tatum. Highest trade value. And so much of his value is in his high-end scoring potential, which doesn't have as much value for us with Kemba on board and so much offensive talent on the wing (Hayward and JB both capable of 18 ppg). To be sure there's more to Tatum than his scoring potential (his excellent team D and his prospects for developing as a passer), but that's where his bread is buttered.

To Toronto for Siakam would make a lot of sense.

Toronto gets a burgeoning go-to scoring option to build around. We get a championship grade supporting star who balances our roster better.

Then follow that up by packaging our center platoon for Cody Zeller to shore up the 5 spot.

Kemba/Carsen
JB/Smart
Hayward/Langford/Semi
Siakam/Grant
Zeller/RWIII/Tacko

That's a deadly team. Rock solid on both ends. Great balance offensively with Kemba and Hayward as the creators and JB and Siakam as the elite secondary attackers. Zeller one of the better and unheralded utility centers with great chemistry with Kemba. Too many young guys after Smart, but we'd be a natural destination for vet buyouts to give us insurance against youthful unreliabilty.

[Green89]

Every team can accommodate 2 max players. Some can have 3-4 like GSW planned if Durant stayed. Easily 60 players get a max. To think Jaylen will get less as FA is insane. However, security might make him accept a little less. If he doesn’t love Boston or want to stay here long term....no way he accepts less.

Exactly why I’m trying to trade him...that’s what we are saying

I think we should trade Tatum. Highest trade value. And so much of his value is in his high-end scoring potential, which doesn't have as much value for us with Kemba on board and so much offensive talent on the wing (Hayward and JB both capable of 18 ppg). To be sure there's more to Tatum than his scoring potential (his excellent team D and his prospects for developing as a passer), but that's where his bread is buttered.

To Toronto for Siakam would make a lot of sense.

Toronto gets a burgeoning go-to scoring option to build around. We get a championship grade supporting star who balances our roster better.

Then follow that up by packaging our center platoon for Cody Zeller to shore up the 5 spot.

Kemba/Carsen
JB/Smart
Hayward/Langford/Semi
Siakam/Grant
Zeller/RWIII/Tacko

That's a deadly team. Rock solid on both ends. Great balance offensively with Kemba and Hayward as the creators and JB and Siakam as the elite secondary attackers. Zeller one of the better and unheralded utility centers with great chemistry with Kemba. Too many young guys after Smart, but we'd be a natural destination for vet buyouts to give us insurance against youthful unreliabilty.

Danny's kept Tatum out of every potential trade we've been linked to. He certainly won't trade him now.

He wouldn't move him to get AD or Kawhi, so he'll just trade him now for Siakam? Laughable.

[Slartibartfast]

Exactly why I’m trying to trade him...that’s what we are saying

I think we should trade Tatum. Highest trade value. And so much of his value is in his high-end scoring potential, which doesn't have as much value for us with Kemba on board and so much offensive talent on the wing (Hayward and JB both capable of 18 ppg). To be sure there's more to Tatum than his scoring potential (his excellent team D and his prospects for developing as a passer), but that's where his bread is buttered.

To Toronto for Siakam would make a lot of sense.

Toronto gets a burgeoning go-to scoring option to build around. We get a championship grade supporting star who balances our roster better.

Then follow that up by packaging our center platoon for Cody Zeller to shore up the 5 spot.

Kemba/Carsen
JB/Smart
Hayward/Langford/Semi
Siakam/Grant
Zeller/RWIII/Tacko

That's a deadly team. Rock solid on both ends. Great balance offensively with Kemba and Hayward as the creators and JB and Siakam as the elite secondary attackers. Zeller one of the better and unheralded utility centers with great chemistry with Kemba. Too many young guys after Smart, but we'd be a natural destination for vet buyouts to give us insurance against youthful unreliabilty.

Danny's kept Tatum out of every potential trade we've been linked to. He certainly won't trade him now.

He wouldn't move him to get AD or Kawhi, so he'll just trade him now for Siakam? Laughable.

AD and Kawhi were major flight risks/rentals. Siakam will be hitting RFA - very different context.

But yeah, I don't think Ainge would do that trade either. Tatum the more valuable commodity than Siakam and Toronto probably wouldn't give extra assets. Do think the swap makes clear basketball sense tho.

[Green89]

I think we should trade Tatum. Highest trade value. And so much of his value is in his high-end scoring potential, which doesn't have as much value for us with Kemba on board and so much offensive talent on the wing (Hayward and JB both capable of 18 ppg). To be sure there's more to Tatum than his scoring potential (his excellent team D and his prospects for developing as a passer), but that's where his bread is buttered.

To Toronto for Siakam would make a lot of sense.

Toronto gets a burgeoning go-to scoring option to build around. We get a championship grade supporting star who balances our roster better.

Then follow that up by packaging our center platoon for Cody Zeller to shore up the 5 spot.

Kemba/Carsen
JB/Smart
Hayward/Langford/Semi
Siakam/Grant
Zeller/RWIII/Tacko

That's a deadly team. Rock solid on both ends. Great balance offensively with Kemba and Hayward as the creators and JB and Siakam as the elite secondary attackers. Zeller one of the better and unheralded utility centers with great chemistry with Kemba. Too many young guys after Smart, but we'd be a natural destination for vet buyouts to give us insurance against youthful unreliabilty.

Danny's kept Tatum out of every potential trade we've been linked to. He certainly won't trade him now.

He wouldn't move him to get AD or Kawhi, so he'll just trade him now for Siakam? Laughable.

AD and Kawhi were major flight risks/rentals. Siakam will be hitting RFA - very different context.

But yeah, I don't think Ainge would do that trade either. Tatum the more valuable commodity than Siakam and Toronto probably wouldn't give extra assets. Do think the swap makes clear basketball sense tho.

I think Tatum will have a better year fitting in this season. He has to as Danny's pretty much labeled him untouchable now, for flight risk players or not.

[Triple7]

Danny's kept Tatum out of every potential trade we've been linked to. He certainly won't trade him now.

He wouldn't move him to get AD or Kawhi, so he'll just trade him now for Siakam? Laughable.

AD and Kawhi were major flight risks/rentals. Siakam will be hitting RFA - very different context.

But yeah, I don't think Ainge would do that trade either. Tatum the more valuable commodity than Siakam and Toronto probably wouldn't give extra assets. Do think the swap makes clear basketball sense tho.

I think Tatum will have a better year fitting in this season. He has to as Danny's pretty much labeled him untouchable now, for flight risk players or not.

I agree. I would like to stick with Tatum and see how he turns out. If we’re trading someone, it would be hayward or brown. I’m also sure the raps won’t trade siakam for anyone other than a star level player.

[FlatearthZorro]

Brown for Bamba. Who says no? Also there were rumors CBS Florida I believe I just read it that Hayward for Fournier and Bamba has been discussed between Cs and Magic. No idea how true it is.

[Fencer reregistered]

Brown for Bamba. Who says no? Also there were rumors CBS Florida I believe I just read it that Hayward for Fournier and Bamba has been discussed between Cs and Magic. No idea how true it is.

I think Hayward/Fournier/Bamba is just somebody having the idea and various blogs running with it. The underlying article, indeed from CBS, seems to be https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-block-kevin-love-kyle-lowry-among-11-big-name-players-that-could-be-moved/

[SmartWentCrazy]

Brown isn't stupid and he's his own agent. Offer him 20 with max raises and a trade kicker and he'll take it.

Saying he isnt stupid while expecting him to take nearly 70M less than Jamal Murray [or 1M more per annum than Rozier] is quite conflicting.