Trade Thread Tread pt.2 2023-24 - (Off-season)

[The Corey's]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

Over the past 2 years, we went to the NBA finals (the first 2 years of Tatum/Brown's prime) we went to the NBA finals and came up just 1 game short of the NBA finals - both times with a rookie head coach... That's pretty darn good!

Look, the Jays are still young. Their average age is 25.5 right now. If you look at the last 18 teams to win a title and look at the average age of each team's 2 best players, here's what we see...

-Youngest pairing = average age of 26, which is older than Tatum and Brown right now (2015 warriors, with Curry and Klay)
-Average age of the 18 pairings = 29.4, which is much older than the Jays are right now

The window to win titles starts next season.

Hal is on record boys. Celtics are still young but next year if they don't have a title it won't be because of their age!!!

Nevermind that Brown can't dribble, Tatum can't figure out how to beat a double team and Smart can't shoot to save his life!!!

Something tells me all of the above will still be Hal.take next year when they get bounced before the ECF.

[ddb]

Listen, I have no idea what Brad Stevens is going to do this offseason. Thus far in his tenure he's been fairly aggressive in roster building. So, with that said, I wouldn't be surprised if Brad made a substantial move or two this offseason. BUT, when you look at the roster, who's under contract, etc. it just seems more likely that any changes will come around the edges.

I'd say Joe Mazz stays. Brad will hire established NBA coaches to round out the coaching staff. Silas being an obvious choice as one of those coaches.
I'd say Jaylen Brown signs the extension and stays in Boston. Remember, that extension doesn't kick in until the 24-25 season. Jaylen is under contract for 23-24. So, his max deal isn't going to impact the 23-24 books.
I think Grant Williams comes back as well. 3-year deal. Reasonable money.

Pritchard and spare pieces/picks are available. My thought is Brad will find a way to bring in another useful rotation player. Once Brogdon was injured the Celts were down the 6th man of the year. Major blow that not enough people are talking about. Injuries are obviously part of the game....Depth, depth, depth. Brad needs to add guys that can play.

Celts were close to another finals trip. Again, I'm not opposed to a blockbuster deal.....but I think it's a pretty safe bet that this core group is coming back with added depth, more experience, a chip on their shoulder, and a bolstered coaching staff.

[hugepatsfan]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

Over the past 2 years, we went to the NBA finals (the first 2 years of Tatum/Brown's prime) we went to the NBA finals and came up just 1 game short of the NBA finals - both times with a rookie head coach... That's pretty darn good!

Look, the Jays are still young. Their average age is 25.5 right now. If you look at the last 18 teams to win a title and look at the average age of each team's 2 best players, here's what we see...

-Youngest pairing = average age of 26, which is older than Tatum and Brown right now (2015 warriors, with Curry and Klay)
-Average age of the 18 pairings = 29.4, which is much older than the Jays are right now

The window to win titles starts next season.

I don't think age of the two best players on a championship team should be broken down to a statistical average the way you've been doing it. I think it's a good subjective point, but being so statistically rigid is a mistake IMO. I think it's unfair to say the window "starts now". They were in the finals last year. This year they almost were. If you want to say they weren't experienced enough in 2018 vs. Lebron or even the 2020 bubble series, then totally fair. But I'm sorry, I can't look at this as not a failure in their "window to win titles" because their average age is 25.5 instead of 26.5. Each set of circumstances is different.

Tatum and Brown as top of the lottery talents were blessed to go to a unique situation where they got drafted to a good team. So they were each able to accumulate deep playoff run experience that most great players don't get to at such a young age. So they should be a little ahead of the timeline.

[Hal14]

Ime thing looks like a big overreaction. Squeaky clean, zero-tolerance, Princeton Wyc, Wholesome Brad and the Boston Pilgrims.

Not knowing the full details it's totally ridiculous for you to say this.

So the fact that Ime hasn't been sued, hasn't been accused of a crime, the fact that not only does Houston not care but the staff members who worked UNDER him but also his players still go to bat for him isn't enough?

We don't know what happened but all those guys do. They're fine with it.

We know he was fired due to shifting culture beliefs and the power dynamics of bosses banging their staff but really at the end of the day it doesn't feel like anything nefurious happened. Looks like some organizatios can live with it and others can't.

Yeah because Udoka banged (and harassed) a female subordinate staffer / team executive's wife within the CELTICS organization...not the rockets organization.

[The Corey's]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

[The Corey's]

Not knowing the full details it's totally ridiculous for you to say this.

So the fact that Ime hasn't been sued, hasn't been accused of a crime, the fact that not only does Houston not care but the staff members who worked UNDER him but also his players still go to bat for him isn't enough?

We don't know what happened but all those guys do. They're fine with it.

We know he was fired due to shifting culture beliefs and the power dynamics of bosses banging their staff but really at the end of the day it doesn't feel like anything nefurious happened. Looks like some organizatios can live with it and others can't.

Yeah because Udoka banged (and harassed) a female subordinate staffer / team executive's wife within the CELTICS organization...not the rockets organization.

You're missing the word allegedly from your accusations. You speak without the facts and it shows.

[zoyathedestroya]

I don’t mind taking too many threes. That’s just the NBA today and you have to adapt. But there’s a difference with how the Warriors, Nuggets, Kings, Heat get their threes and how the Cs do it. I wish we had available data, but if I had to guess, players shoot a higher percentage via multiple passes vs. one-pass or no-pass possessions. Diversify the offense.

Commit to ball/player movement and defense. Prioritize team play and BBIQ. Replace/acquire players accordingly.

[Andrew McCeltic]

So the fact that Ime hasn't been sued, hasn't been accused of a crime, the fact that not only does Houston not care but the staff members who worked UNDER him but also his players still go to bat for him isn't enough?

We don't know what happened but all those guys do. They're fine with it.

We know he was fired due to shifting culture beliefs and the power dynamics of bosses banging their staff but really at the end of the day it doesn't feel like anything nefurious happened. Looks like some organizatios can live with it and others can't.

Yeah because Udoka banged (and harassed) a female subordinate staffer / team executive's wife within the CELTICS organization...not the rockets organization.

You're missing the word allegedly from your accusations. You speak without the facts and it shows.

Wasn’t even alleged.. rumored it was an owner’s wife. Other specifics are reliable - relationship with “inappropriate language” at the start.

[Hal14]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

Over the past 2 years, we went to the NBA finals (the first 2 years of Tatum/Brown's prime) we went to the NBA finals and came up just 1 game short of the NBA finals - both times with a rookie head coach... That's pretty darn good!

Look, the Jays are still young. Their average age is 25.5 right now. If you look at the last 18 teams to win a title and look at the average age of each team's 2 best players, here's what we see...

-Youngest pairing = average age of 26, which is older than Tatum and Brown right now (2015 warriors, with Curry and Klay)
-Average age of the 18 pairings = 29.4, which is much older than the Jays are right now

The window to win titles starts next season.

I don't think age of the two best players on a championship team should be broken down to a statistical average the way you've been doing it. I think it's a good subjective point, but being so statistically rigid is a mistake IMO. I think it's unfair to say the window "starts now". They were in the finals last year. This year they almost were. If you want to say they weren't experienced enough in 2018 vs. Lebron or even the 2020 bubble series, then totally fair. But I'm sorry, I can't look at this as not a failure in their "window to win titles" because their average age is 25.5 instead of 26.5. Each set of circumstances is different.

Tatum and Brown as top of the lottery talents were blessed to go to a unique situation where they got drafted to a good team. So they were each able to accumulate deep playoff run experience that most great players don't get to at such a young age. So they should be a little ahead of the timeline.

That still doesn't change the fact that this was only the 2nd year with the Jays in hitting their prime - as the 2 guys leading this team. The guy I replied to said it was the 6th year.

It also doesn't change the fact that out of the last 18 teams to win a title, 0 of them had its 2 best players who who were younger than the Jays are. You can try to poke holes in the data if you want. But it's hard to dispute the data. Teams simply don't win titles who are led by young guys. Jordan and Pippen had to lose to the pistons three years in a row before they finally broke through and won their first title. Shaq and Kobe got embarrassed by a duo that had less talent but was much older than them (stockton and malone). Experience matters. This was only Tatum and Brown's 6th year in the league together. Middleton and Giannis didn't win the title till their 8th year together.

Sure we were in the finals last year but we didn't win it. A major reason why we didn't beat the warriors was because they were MUCH older, more experienced than we were. So by bringing that up, you're only strengthening my argument.

[Andrew McCeltic]

I don’t mind taking too many threes. That’s just the NBA today and you have to adapt. But there’s a difference with how the Warriors, Nuggets, Kings, Heat get their threes and how the Cs do it. I wish we had available data, but if I had to guess, players shoot a higher percentage via multiple passes vs. one-pass or no-pass possessions. Diversify the offense.

Commit to ball/player movement and defense. Prioritize team play and BBIQ. Replace/acquire players accordingly.

Josh Giddey would be a dream.. Or Lamelo. Healthy Lonzo Ball would be a nice fit.

[hugepatsfan]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

It's definitely accurate. Brown wasn't even a full time starter until after Kyrie left. The bubble year, 2020. And in that year w ehad two all stars, but Brown wasn't one of them... people forget Kemba was exactly what we were hoping for until he hurt his knee midway through that first year. Heck, even Tatum got off to a slowish start that year and for the first half of the year Kemba was really our go-to guy. It wasn't until the 20-21 season where Tatum and Brown emerged as the clear top 2 on the roster. And even then Kemba was still there.

Hard to argue that this is anymore than year 3 where the team has been built around Tatum and Brown.

[The Corey's]

Yeah because Udoka banged (and harassed) a female subordinate staffer / team executive's wife within the CELTICS organization...not the rockets organization.

You're missing the word allegedly from your accusations. You speak without the facts and it shows.

Wasn’t even alleged.. rumored it was an owner’s wife. Other specifics are reliable - relationship with “inappropriate language” at the start.

Hal is allegeding it though. And I doubt he would be so comfortable doing so if he was hosting a radio show.

[zoyathedestroya]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

If we’re going by usage, this is the 4th postseason the Jays have led the team — 2018, 2020, 2022, 2023. 2019, it was the Kyrie show. 2021, JB was injured. If it’s Smart as a starter and both Jays available, then yeah, just the 2nd postseason — 2022, 2023.

[The Corey's]

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

It's definitely accurate. Brown wasn't even a full time starter until after Kyrie left. The bubble year, 2020. And in that year w ehad two all stars, but Brown wasn't one of them... people forget Kemba was exactly what we were hoping for until he hurt his knee midway through that first year. Heck, even Tatum got off to a slowish start that year and for the first half of the year Kemba was really our go-to guy. It wasn't until the 20-21 season where Tatum and Brown emerged as the clear top 2 on the roster. And even then Kemba was still there.

Hard to argue that this is anymore than year 3 where the team has been built around Tatum and Brown.

This has been the Jays team since Irving left. I don't care that Brown didn't make all star or all NBA. Those things aren't a reflection on who's team it was.

Kemba was never a core piece. It was a major overreaction from the GM who lost not one but TWO major pieces in one off-season for free.

Giving Brown excuses is weak ass ****. This dude has been at the party long enough.

[165bows]

I don’t mind taking too many threes. That’s just the NBA today and you have to adapt. But there’s a difference with how the Warriors, Nuggets, Kings, Heat get their threes and how the Cs do it. I wish we had available data, but if I had to guess, players shoot a higher percentage via multiple passes vs. one-pass or no-pass possessions. Diversify the offense.

Commit to ball/player movement and defense. Prioritize team play and BBIQ. Replace/acquire players accordingly.

Right, the solution to shooting 30% from three isn’t to spam more 45% shots from two. The offense just wasn’t working that last game and that’s happened against too many elite defenses where the offense hasn’t just struggled but completely collapsed.

They need more movement (ahem D’Antoni) and a guy in the front court that can play versatile defense but also isn’t allergic to diversifying his scoring output like Al and Rob have become.

[BK_2020]

They've tried for 6 straight years putting various supporting casts around Tatum, Brown and Smart and they haven't won. It's time for a change.

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

Bruh, Jaylen Brown came off the bench until 2019-20 season. Did you just start following the Celtics? Welcome to the club. Misery loves company.

Edit: Real talk, the main issue with trying to think of the Celtics as being led by the "Jays" is that putting Tatum and Jaylen together into a unit offers zero heuristic value. They do not play similarly in style and do not same similar levels of impact. It's like combining Kobe and Odom and calling them Odobe, when in fact one is a star and one is an elevated role player.

[CelticFaninLBC]

I think the 3 guard combo of Marcus, White and Brogdon aren't the problem, that's actually a pretty strong group.

I personally disagree. I think it's a waste of resources.

Smart/White/Brogdon - $59.5 million
Smart/White/Pritchard - $41.0 million

In my opinon, I just don't think you are getting the productivity justified for $18.5 million. Celtics went to the Finals with Pritchard playing. Celtics didn't go to the Finals with Brogdon.

I'm not saying Pritchard is a better player than Brogdon. I'm just saying the resources could be put to better use in my opinion.

Brogdon probably has the lowest trade value and Smart seems like the odd man out, if the plan continues to be taking half their shots from 3.

Smart & Rob should net a nice return...

[zoyathedestroya]

I don’t mind taking too many threes. That’s just the NBA today and you have to adapt. But there’s a difference with how the Warriors, Nuggets, Kings, Heat get their threes and how the Cs do it. I wish we had available data, but if I had to guess, players shoot a higher percentage via multiple passes vs. one-pass or no-pass possessions. Diversify the offense.

Commit to ball/player movement and defense. Prioritize team play and BBIQ. Replace/acquire players accordingly.

Right, the solution to shooting 30% from three isn’t to spam more 45% shots from two. The offense just wasn’t working that last game and that’s happened against too many elite defenses where the offense hasn’t just struggled but completely collapsed.

They need more movement (ahem D’Antoni) and a guy in the front court that can play versatile defense but also isn’t allergic to diversifying his scoring output like Al and Rob have become.

Rob was taking it to the rim more when he gets a smaller guy inside. He was looking for his offense more compared to previous years. I thought he was effective as a high PnR roll man and someone who flashed in the middle of the zone. Except he usually got pulled out in crunch time or is ailing (G7) and playing limited minutes.

EDIT: Our two most impactful players, Rob and White, are still underused/misused imo. I’d try to run more PnR using those two. White was really good at it when he had Poeltl as his PnR partner in SA. In Boston, he’s getting possession scraps with Jays/Smart as priorities.

[The Corey's]

lol not really. This was only the 2nd year that those 3 guys have been THE core of the team, with supporting pieces around them.

The year before that, Brown was out for the playoffs - and we still had Kemba on a max contract, as a core piece (who couldn't defend to save his life).

Before that we had some combination of Kemba/Kyrie/Hayward/IT as a core piece, with the Jays not yet in their prime and Smart was merely a supporting piece.

This is such a gross misrepresention of the truth that one has to argue if you watch games or just read math.

IT has never been a core member of the team during this entire run.

Irving participated in one playoff run with us and it wasn't very good.

Kemba and Hayward were NEVER ahead of the Jays on the depth chart.

Not one time ever. Period.

You're trolling lolol.

Bruh, Jaylen Brown came off the bench until 2019-20 season. Did you just start following the Celtics? Welcome to the club. Misery loves company.

So what? After Irving left it was their team.

Smart came and went as a starter too, do you wanna ignore the 7 years before that just because he couldn't hold down the starting position?

[CelticFaninLBC]

I don’t mind taking too many threes. That’s just the NBA today and you have to adapt. But there’s a difference with how the Warriors, Nuggets, Kings, Heat get their threes and how the Cs do it. I wish we had available data, but if I had to guess, players shoot a higher percentage via multiple passes vs. one-pass or no-pass possessions. Diversify the offense.

Commit to ball/player movement and defense. Prioritize team play and BBIQ. Replace/acquire players accordingly.

Nothing wrong with shooting lots of 3's, if you have a great shooter or two. Unfortunately, neither Jay is a great shooter and both take ill advised 3's.

As for the difference with Denver, they take 10 less 3's per game than Boston.