"WCIHAoTDP?" - 2016 Draft Thread P.2

[OFWGKTA]

[Envelope]

If the Celtics don't draft Maker,
he could be a Thon in their side in the coming years...

If the Celtics do draft Thon though, he could be a big time shot Maker in the coming years

big time shot Maker and Thon some.

[brackdan70]

I have an idea. lets draft somebody who rebounds.

[rony zeira]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

LOL, I'm from Israel, seen lots of Maccabi lots of times both in the euroleague (Likely the best basketball league in the world outside the NBA) and Israeli league (Which is usually a pretty decent Bball league, but is pretty weak this season), Bender really struggles this season most of the time vs. pros, I don't know who you've seen play against, but right now he has a lot in common with Bragniani. I think he's athleticisim isn't as bad as some people here might think it is, but he is very soft and gets overpowered by much smaller opponents all the time without much of a fight, he doesn't rebound well, deosn't defend well, he loses focus and overall lacks a lot of intensity.

To his defense, I must say that Macabbi is a mess for most of this year with no good coaching an lots of injuries, and Bender does have a HUGE upside, really, great quickness for someone his size, great shooting touch and form, good ball handeling and his shot-blocking is surprisngly decent. The thing is, if his problems were only things that improve with time and experience, I'd be all over the Celtics taking him at 3, but if I compare him to Omri Casspi at the same age (Which I've also seen a lot of), Casspi was WAY more intense and WAY more focused. Casppi at that age made lots of stupid mistakes and his outside shooting was really really bad, but no one doubted his heart, desire and work ethic, with Bender, I just didn't see it this year, he gets lost on the court WAY too often and I didn't really see him improve much over the year.

So yeah, I completly stand by my Andrea Bragniani comparison, that's where he is right now (Mind you, Bragniani maxed-out as a 21-7 guy in Toronto, that not terrible).

[radcot]

^^^ I haven't seen him play, but from this scouting report Bender sounds like someone you take a flier on mid-first round or later, not with the third pick in the draft. Thanks for posting.

[rony zeira]

That really depends on draft strength, if you take for example the 2000 draft which was really really bad, you could make a case for someone like Bragniani being a top-5 pick, if you'd do a re-draft of a normal draft, he would likely be somewhere around 8-15 and on really deep drafts he might even drop to the 20's, but I wouldn't take him as a top-3 pick on any draft.

I'm no draft expert but from what I heard, this draft isn't considered strong, so I can totally see why Bender is talked about as a very high pick, he has that kind of upside, I'm just pointing to the flaws I've seen from him this season, most prospects who come into the NBA with those flaws usually don't end up as superstars or even regular all-stars. I really hope I'm wrong with Bender and that the flaws I've seen from him are more related to just him being young and his team having a mess of a season with some very poor coaching, he seems like a really good kid with lots of talent.

[Mustinjo]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

LOL, I'm from Israel, seen lots of Maccabi lots of times both in the euroleague (Likely the best basketball league in the world outside the NBA) and Israeli league (Which is usually a pretty decent Bball league, but is pretty weak this season), Bender really struggles this season most of the time vs. pros, I don't know who you've seen play against, but right now he has a lot in common with Bragniani. I think he's athleticisim isn't as bad as some people here might think it is, but he is very soft and gets overpowered by much smaller opponents all the time without much of a fight, he doesn't rebound well, deosn't defend well, he loses focus and overall lacks a lot of intensity.

To his defense, I must say that Macabbi is a mess for most of this year with no good coaching an lots of injuries, and Bender does have a HUGE upside, really, great quickness for someone his size, great shooting touch and form, good ball handeling and his shot-blocking is surprisngly decent. The thing is, if his problems were only things that improve with time and experience, I'd be all over the Celtics taking him at 3, but if I compare him to Omri Casspi at the same age (Which I've also seen a lot of), Casspi was WAY more intense and WAY more focused. Casppi at that age made lots of stupid mistakes and his outside shooting was really really bad, but no one doubted his heart, desire and work ethic, with Bender, I just didn't see it this year, he gets lost on the court WAY too often and I didn't really see him improve much over the year.

So yeah, I completly stand by my Andrea Bragniani comparison, that's where he is right now (Mind you, Bragniani maxed-out as a 21-7 guy in Toronto, that not terrible).

You obviously don't remember what was Bargnani as a prospect, that's why I said they are different. His upside was mainly all about offensive end, combination of scoring both by driving to the basket and by spotting up. As a defender he was solid on-the-ball shot blocker and was mobile for a big, but his defensive awareness was (and still is) terrible. Bender has a much higher defensive upside because he can switch on screens and has really quick feet, not to mention he is very good weak side shot blocker. Offensively he'll never be a main scoring option on a good team (what everybody thought Bargnani could become) but is a miles better passer and facilitator, Bargani never developed that part of his game.

[FlatearthZorro]

I have an idea. lets draft somebody who rebounds.

Rebounds, blocks shots and can run the floor(has some athletic ability).

[rony zeira]

You are right, I don't remember Bragniani as a prospect, I do remember him as an NBA player, and though there are differences between them, I do see lots of similarities to establish the comparison. Bender, IMO, has just as big of an upside as bragniani on the offensive end, his ball handling is very good and his shooting touch is also great, but at the moment he is too weak and too passive to do much outside of making shots at a good clip when open, he won't beat any physical NBA defender at the moment and so far I haven't seen enough aggressiveness to think he will do that in a few years even if he bulks up.

As for his defensive awareness, I have to disagree, it's not good at all most of the time, he misses his man way too often, he doesn't rotate well, doesn't do a good job of boxing out his man and even though he can block shots (Not a "Very good weak side shot blocker" though, especially not at the pro levels), he also jumps on fakes way too often. As for passing and facilitating the offense, he might have done that on the high school level vs. inferior competition, but I haven't seen much of that on the pro level, he can handle the ball well enough in the open court but is way too passive to be counted on as a facilitator on half-court sets.

[Mustinjo]

Bargnani was also 2 years older then Bender is right now during his draft.

Here's a quote about his defense -

Defense: Largely mediocre on this end of the floor. Will put in a decent effort, but has a hard time being effective. Lacks the strength to deny centers position on the block—gets pushed around, and is fairly foul prone. Not agile enough to defend perimeter oriented power forwards or be effective switching on the pick and roll. Lateral quickness is average at best, making him very susceptible to being beat from the perimeter. Awareness, experience level need to improve substantially. Gets out of his stance quickly at times and tends to lose his focus. Gets very few steals or blocks either considering his length.

Besides issues about strength (with Bargani having at least 20 pounds more), I don't see many similarities with Dragan. Offensively, yes, there are some similarities, but I already said, Bargnani was primarily a scorer, Bender is much more versatile and isn't a shoot first guy.

[Wes-J]

I have an idea. lets draft somebody who rebounds.

Rebounds, blocks shots and can run the floor(has some athletic ability).

Last night caused me to shift my focus towards Davis. I'm paying close attention to him at the combine. Others include Diallo, B. Johnson, Gabusele, Jeanne, and Zubac.

[Wes-J]

I should say we need to give that Chinese kid Qi a very strong look. 9'6" reach is crazy. He looks very fluid to me. Lot of 2 way potential it's just hard to tell how tough he is.

[Envelope]

When someone compares Bender to Bargnani you know that person who said that has never ever seen him play. They have only two things in common - they are both tall and white.

LOL, I'm from Israel, seen lots of Maccabi lots of times both in the euroleague (Likely the best basketball league in the world outside the NBA) and Israeli league (Which is usually a pretty decent Bball league, but is pretty weak this season), Bender really struggles this season most of the time vs. pros, I don't know who you've seen play against, but right now he has a lot in common with Bragniani. I think he's athleticisim isn't as bad as some people here might think it is, but he is very soft and gets overpowered by much smaller opponents all the time without much of a fight, he doesn't rebound well, deosn't defend well, he loses focus and overall lacks a lot of intensity.

To his defense, I must say that Macabbi is a mess for most of this year with no good coaching an lots of injuries, and Bender does have a HUGE upside, really, great quickness for someone his size, great shooting touch and form, good ball handeling and his shot-blocking is surprisngly decent. The thing is, if his problems were only things that improve with time and experience, I'd be all over the Celtics taking him at 3, but if I compare him to Omri Casspi at the same age (Which I've also seen a lot of), Casspi was WAY more intense and WAY more focused. Casppi at that age made lots of stupid mistakes and his outside shooting was really really bad, but no one doubted his heart, desire and work ethic, with Bender, I just didn't see it this year, he gets lost on the court WAY too often and I didn't really see him improve much over the year.

So yeah, I completly stand by my Andrea Bragniani comparison, that's where he is right now (Mind you, Bragniani maxed-out as a 21-7 guy in Toronto, that not terrible).

You obviously don't remember what was Bargnani as a prospect, that's why I said they are different. His upside was mainly all about offensive end, combination of scoring both by driving to the basket and by spotting up. As a defender he was solid on-the-ball shot blocker and was mobile for a big, but his defensive awareness was (and still is) terrible. Bender has a much higher defensive upside because he can switch on screens and has really quick feet, not to mention he is very good weak side shot blocker. Offensively he'll never be a main scoring option on a good team (what everybody thought Bargnani could become) but is a miles better passer and facilitator, Bargani never developed that part of his game.

Rony has clearly watched Bender more than you, and his observations match those of many others who have watched him.

You say Bargnani had terrible defensive awareness, and by way of comparison you say Bender has really quick feet. What do quick feet have to do with awareness? Listen to Rony when he tells you that Bender has poor defensive awareness, regardless of his quick feet.

Jon Givony is so busy he isn't watching Bender closely. 4 months ago Draft Express had Skal and Bender in their top 4.
The only reason Bender hasn't moved down in the DX mock draft is because he's been glued to the bench and hasn't been exposed as much as Skal has.

[brackdan70]

I have an idea. lets draft somebody who rebounds.

Rebounds, blocks shots and can run the floor(has some athletic ability).

Last night caused me to shift my focus towards Davis. I'm paying close attention to him at the combine. Others include Diallo, B. Johnson, Gabusele, Jeanne, and Zubac.

Davis is very intriguing. he seem like a stretch at top 5 though and may not be around for 16. trade back in the draft?

[Murta]

Rebounds, blocks shots and can run the floor(has some athletic ability).

Last night caused me to shift my focus towards Davis. I'm paying close attention to him at the combine. Others include Diallo, B. Johnson, Gabusele, Jeanne, and Zubac.

Davis is very intriguing. he seem like a stretch at top 5 though and may not be around for 16. trade back in the draft?

Please no. If Danny wants Davis, he has to trade UP to get him.

[Bluewhale]

That really depends on draft strength, if you take for example the 2000 draft which was really really bad, you could make a case for someone like Bragniani being a top-5 pick, if you'd do a re-draft of a normal draft, he would likely be somewhere around 8-15 and on really deep drafts he might even drop to the 20's, but I wouldn't take him as a top-3 pick on any draft.

This is very true.
http://hoopshype.com/2016/01/28/2006-nba-re-draft-the-way-it-should-have-been/#slideIdslide-7
1 Aldridge (#2)
2 Rondo (#21)
3 Millsap (#47)
4 Lowry (#24)
5 Gay (#8)
6 Roy (#6)
7 Redick (#11)
8 Bargniani (#1)
In a recent redraft article, Bragniani was listed at #8 pick. This just said the 2006 draft is so weak, especially for the top 10 prospects.

[Bluewhale]

I should say we need to give that Chinese kid Qi a very strong look. 9'6" reach is crazy. He looks very fluid to me. Lot of 2 way potential it's just hard to tell how tough he is.

The problem is, even he is a great shot blocker, he is softer than the famous Yi.

In addition, Qi's stats in Chinese league is worse than Yi's stats.

Given the number of pick we have, I support to pick him up. But he has many red-flag to me.

[lon3lytoaster]

Watching these scoring and shooting droughts has me fiending for Ingram but our current PF situation has me lusting after Simmons while my heart knows we'll likely have Murray.

Sigh.

[cellar-door]

Bargnani is an interesting comp for Bender in terms of where he is at this point vs. where Bargs was at 20.

I think it would be a mistake to take that as a projection going forward though because from what I have seen of Bender he has quite a bit more lateral agility than Bargnani, but will have less bulk. Bargnani was a guy who projected as a PF/C, where Bender is more of a SF/PF type. Skills wise I'd agree they are similar, but body and athleticism wise they are different.

I think Bender has a higher ceiling than Bargs ever did, and I personally think the #3 pick is probably about right for him, as long as a team understands he's at least 1 probably 2 years away from being a rotation guy and his upside is probably more like 2.5-3.5 years away total.

It will also be interesting to see new measurables on Bender, we have numbers from when he was 16 then 17 (he grew) it'll be interesting to see if he grew again and how much weight he put on.

Overall I think he's a decent pick at 3 if you know he's a project, he's to me the best of the project big men. If a team wants to go with a guard or wing who is closer to ready I think that's fine as well.

[lon3lytoaster]

If the Celtics don't use all of their 8 draft picks on Thon Maker,
Ainge deserves to be fired...

We'll have to wait until June to get a proper read on his draft stock but he's s no brainer at 31.