Summer League: Celtics vs 76ers – 6:30PM, Tues. 07-11-17 (Vegas)

[Homerclease]

Is he? Bell was my sleeper of the draft. I wanted us to select him. But I knew he wasn't Danny's or Brad type of player because he can't shoot. But man can he rebounder, block and defend. He is a Ben Wallace type. Kenneth Faried with shot blocking.

5x5 last night. Tanking Bulls sold this guy for 3.5 million cash

He can really pass too. Can function a lot like Green, rolling off screens and either attacking the rim or kicking to shooters on the move.

He doesn't have the perimeter game of Green or even Semi for that matter but the guy just had a knack on defense of being in the right place at the right time. Kid is gonna stick in this league for a long time. I hope they knock off Minnesota tonight so we get a crack at them on Friday. I'm not sure Bell is gonna be able to stick with Semi on the perimeter

[Slartibartfast]

I'm worried that Jaylen is going to wind up Jeff Green 2.0. He's just got poor feel offensively. Everything looks too premeditated. Now, the good news is for the foreseeable future, all he has to do is hit spot up shots, attack the glass, play D and occasionally drive past guys closing out on him, but long-term I do worry a lot about his ability to break down a set defense.

The one area he seems to have a good feel and vision from is the post, of all places. That's actually kind of why I like him most as a SG - he can use his size to (A) help offset IT's lack of size and (B) post up smaller players on the block. To stick as more of a wing than a forward, though, he's got to improve his passing and handles.

Two things keeping him from Jeff Green status - a quick first step and a left hand. I think Corey Maggette is still the more likely downside than Jeff. Tatum is actually the guy who has more Jeff Green downside, IMHO, despite being vastly more skilled than Benzo. The biggest limitation on Jeff was how match-up dependent and generally inefficient he was as a scorer at the wing and how light/soft he was at PF (where he enjoyed pretty consistent match-up advantages as a scorer).

As for Jaylen in the post as a 2, it works, but only so many possessions available in the post. Need shooting and secondary PNR ability to thrive on the wing. I think he's a combo forward through and through. Let him attack closeouts generated by kickouts from your PG and SG, fly in transition, get a 3rd option diet of post-ups and mid-post isos, and hit corner 3s.

Problem is that's the same type of role Tatum is going to fit best into. Is there enough usage for two combo forwards who don't create out of PNR at the same time?

[Slartibartfast]

5x5 last night. Tanking Bulls sold this guy for 3.5 million cash

He can really pass too. Can function a lot like Green, rolling off screens and either attacking the rim or kicking to shooters on the move.

He doesn't have the perimeter game of Green or even Semi for that matter but the guy just had a knack on defense of being in the right place at the right time. Kid is gonna stick in this league for a long time. I hope they knock off Minnesota tonight so we get a crack at them on Friday. I'm not sure Bell is gonna be able to stick with Semi on the perimeter

Green does a lot of his damage as a roll man. Curry in particular attracts so much attention, Green's rolls put him downhill going 4 on 3. I think Bell can do some of that.

Obviously not gonna space the floor like Draymond, but that particular function is a pretty big staple of his role in the offense.

[24istheLAW]

I'm worried that Jaylen is going to wind up Jeff Green 2.0. He's just got poor feel offensively. Everything looks too premeditated. Now, the good news is for the foreseeable future, all he has to do is hit spot up shots, attack the glass, play D and occasionally drive past guys closing out on him, but long-term I do worry a lot about his ability to break down a set defense.

The one area he seems to have a good feel and vision from is the post, of all places. That's actually kind of why I like him most as a SG - he can use his size to (A) help offset IT's lack of size and (B) post up smaller players on the block. To stick as more of a wing than a forward, though, he's got to improve his passing and handles.

I feel you on the premeditated part. Whenever they show one of his impressive drives on replay, you can basically pick out where the cones would be instead of people.

[jmr07019]

Jaylen put up good numbers as a rook.
51% for 2, 34% for 3, 54% TS%, 14 points/36. Just needs modest improvement across the board in efficiency and more usage to achieve something like
53% from 2, 37% from 3, 59% TS, 20 points/36. If he can gives us that with good to great defense that's a hell of a player and I think that's a very plausible scenario.

[Slartibartfast]

Jaylen put up good numbers as a rook.
51% for 2, 34% for 3, 54% TS%, 14 points/36. Just needs modest improvement across the board in efficiency and more usage to achieve something like
53% from 2, 37% from 3, 59% TS, 20 points/36. If he can gives us that with good to great defense that's a hell of a player and I think that's a very plausible scenario.

You can't scale Jaylen's role like that. Upping his usage is going to require he venture into the rawer parts of his game and it's going to impact his efficiency (just as it did at Cal and in SL). Mind you, I think he would love that, but Brad was pretty strict about keeping him to wide-open 3s, transition/hustle points, attacking close-outs and occasional post-ups.

[24istheLAW]

You can't scale Jaylen's role like that. Upping his usage is going to require he venture into the rawer parts of his game and it's going to impact his efficiency (just as it did at Cal and in SL). Mind you, I think he would love that, but Brad was pretty strict about keeping him to wide-open 3s, transition/hustle points, attacking close-outs and occasional post-ups.

Indeed, scaling Jaylen's role is making the same mistake most of this forum was making with Jeff Green. People were like "how's he not going to score 20 ppg if he's getting 17 shots?" We saw how that turned out. Hard to breakout while doing the things you're bad at more.

FWIW I don't see the comparison between Jaylen and Benzo. On athleticism alone, Brown seems to already play two positions. Green never found one.

[CeltsfanSinceBirth]

5x5 last night. Tanking Bulls sold this guy for 3.5 million cash

Some caller into NBA Radio last night brought up a good point about Reinsdorf regarding this pick.

On June 21, 2017 - the Chicago White Sox signed their 1st round pick, Jake Burger to a contract with a signing bonus of $3.7 million.
On June 22, 2017 - the Chicago Bulls sell their 2nd round pick for $3.5 million.

Reinsdorf, of course, owns both teams, and has always favored the White Sox over the Bulls. I'd be pretty livid if I was a Bulls fan.

[Slartibartfast]

You can't scale Jaylen's role like that. Upping his usage is going to require he venture into the rawer parts of his game and it's going to impact his efficiency (just as it did at Cal and in SL). Mind you, I think he would love that, but Brad was pretty strict about keeping him to wide-open 3s, transition/hustle points, attacking close-outs and occasional post-ups.

Indeed, scaling Jaylen's role is making the same mistake most of this forum was making with Jeff Green. People were like "how's he not going to score 20 ppg if he's getting 17 shots?" We saw how that turned out. Hard to breakout while doing the things you're bad at more.

FWIW I don't see the comparison between Jaylen and Benzo. On athleticism alone, Brown seems to already play two positions. Green never found one.

The Benzo comp stems more from his streaky shooting, the shaky handle and the lack of passing. But Jaylen's game a lot more economical than Jeff's. Doesn't need 30 feet of runway to beat his guy. Can actually go left.

But statistically there are some of the same red flags. Ditto Harrison Barnes. Guys who want to score but lack well-rounded scoring games. Guys who should be better defenders, defensive playmakers and rebounders than they are. Guys that people rave about from a character and intelligence standpoint (Sam Presti really loved Green, Georgetown coach said he was smartest player he ever coached) but frequently play dumb and inefficiently.

[Gomes3PC]

I'm worried that Jaylen is going to wind up Jeff Green 2.0. He's just got poor feel offensively. Everything looks too premeditated. Now, the good news is for the foreseeable future, all he has to do is hit spot up shots, attack the glass, play D and occasionally drive past guys closing out on him, but long-term I do worry a lot about his ability to break down a set defense.

The one area he seems to have a good feel and vision from is the post, of all places. That's actually kind of why I like him most as a SG - he can use his size to (A) help offset IT's lack of size and (B) post up smaller players on the block. To stick as more of a wing than a forward, though, he's got to improve his passing and handles.

Two things keeping him from Jeff Green status - a quick first step and a left hand. I think Corey Maggette is still the more likely downside than Jeff. Tatum is actually the guy who has more Jeff Green downside, IMHO, despite being vastly more skilled than Benzo. The biggest limitation on Jeff was how match-up dependent and generally inefficient he was as a scorer at the wing and how light/soft he was at PF (where he enjoyed pretty consistent match-up advantages as a scorer).

As for Jaylen in the post as a 2, it works, but only so many possessions available in the post. Need shooting and secondary PNR ability to thrive on the wing. I think he's a combo forward through and through. Let him attack closeouts generated by kickouts from your PG and SG, fly in transition, get a 3rd option diet of post-ups and mid-post isos, and hit corner 3s.

Problem is that's the same type of role Tatum is going to fit best into. Is there enough usage for two combo forwards who don't create out of PNR at the same time?

I think it's too early to say if Tatum can't become a good P&R player. I feel confident Brown is unlikely at this point, but I have seen better feel and court awareness from Tatum, two traits that you need to operate the P&R. Pierce, Paul George and others have come into the league without that skill and built it over time. If Tatum can be that primary guy and Brown is his sidekick playing great D, knocking down open Js and slamming it in off blow-by's from close-out's, the pair can work.

Ultimately I think that is what Ainge is hoping for - Tatum becomes focal point on offense, Brown is more of a 3rd/4th scorer like a Shawn Marion who kills it once other guys create gaps in the D. Lot to bridge from there to what both are now; the good news is Hayward and IT can shoulder that. The bad news is that sometimes the only way young stars build those skills is reps, and with the win-now attitude it's hard to throw away games/possessions letting Tatum and Brown learn from their mistakes.

[Slartibartfast]

Spoiler:

I'm worried that Jaylen is going to wind up Jeff Green 2.0. He's just got poor feel offensively. Everything looks too premeditated. Now, the good news is for the foreseeable future, all he has to do is hit spot up shots, attack the glass, play D and occasionally drive past guys closing out on him, but long-term I do worry a lot about his ability to break down a set defense.

The one area he seems to have a good feel and vision from is the post, of all places. That's actually kind of why I like him most as a SG - he can use his size to (A) help offset IT's lack of size and (B) post up smaller players on the block. To stick as more of a wing than a forward, though, he's got to improve his passing and handles.

Two things keeping him from Jeff Green status - a quick first step and a left hand. I think Corey Maggette is still the more likely downside than Jeff. Tatum is actually the guy who has more Jeff Green downside, IMHO, despite being vastly more skilled than Benzo. The biggest limitation on Jeff was how match-up dependent and generally inefficient he was as a scorer at the wing and how light/soft he was at PF (where he enjoyed pretty consistent match-up advantages as a scorer).

As for Jaylen in the post as a 2, it works, but only so many possessions available in the post. Need shooting and secondary PNR ability to thrive on the wing. I think he's a combo forward through and through. Let him attack closeouts generated by kickouts from your PG and SG, fly in transition, get a 3rd option diet of post-ups and mid-post isos, and hit corner 3s.

Problem is that's the same type of role Tatum is going to fit best into. Is there enough usage for two combo forwards who don't create out of PNR at the same time?

I think it's too early to say if Tatum can't become a good P&R player. I feel confident Brown is unlikely at this point, but I have seen better feel and court awareness from Tatum, two traits that you need to operate the P&R. Pierce, Paul George and others have come into the league without that skill and built it over time. If Tatum can be that primary guy and Brown is his sidekick playing great D, knocking down open Js and slamming it in off blow-by's from close-out's, the pair can work.

Ultimately I think that is what Ainge is hoping for - Tatum becomes focal point on offense, Brown is more of a 3rd/4th scorer like a Shawn Marion who kills it once other guys create gaps in the D. Lot to bridge from there to what both are now; the good news is Hayward and IT can shoulder that. The bad news is that sometimes the only way young stars build those skills is reps, and with the win-now attitude it's hard to throw away games/possessions letting Tatum and Brown learn from their mistakes.

Feel and court awareness are definitely important but those aren't the only ingredients needed for PNR play.

If Tatum can extend his off-the-dribble jump-shot range to 3 that's a big step towards being a legit focal point. I'm not sold there.

An even bigger problem for his PNR game is the combo of how high and loose his dribble is with his lack of top shelf perimeter quickness. We saw Ray Allen essentially disappear as a PNR playmaker once he lost his quickness despite being an awesome off the dribble shooter because he couldn't turn the corner on traps and, while a solid ballhandler and passer, he wasn't dynamic enough to split or make the right passes.

You can see this in how he attacks in perimeter isos - he doesn't want a pick (other than in dribble hand off situations to get a switch or attack on the move) because it brings an extra defender and it doesn't play to his strengths. Instead he uses crossover or jab stebs until he gets the defender off balance (or if they are quicker and can pressure his handle, he backs them down into more comfortable range) and then attacks. It's very deliberate and doesn't translate to the rapid-fire dynamism of PNR play.

[DoubleHappiness]

Jaylen needs to improve his handle but his handle NOW is already better than Jeffy G's was.

Also, they are far from similar in a mental capacity/approach to the game. If Jaylen improves his feel for the game his ceiling is still ultra-high.

[DoubleHappiness]

5x5 last night. Tanking Bulls sold this guy for 3.5 million cash

Some caller into NBA Radio last night brought up a good point about Reinsdorf regarding this pick.

On June 21, 2017 - the Chicago White Sox signed their 1st round pick, Jake Burger to a contract with a signing bonus of $3.7 million.
On June 22, 2017 - the Chicago Bulls sell their 2nd round pick for $3.5 million.

Reinsdorf, of course, owns both teams, and has always favored the White Sox over the Bulls. I'd be pretty livid if I was a Bulls fan.

I'm a White Sox fan, and it still sucks. We just started blowing it up this year and will further when Quintana gets traded. It's the right move, but losing for a long time sucks regardless. That, and they changed the name of the ballpark to "Guaranteed Rate Field". The logo is literally a red, down arrow. The only plus is that so many other people in my generation are Cubs fans because of the history, and the fact that they play in the middle of a million bars, that Sox tickets can usually be had for close to free.

But Bulls fans definitely deserve better. Chicago is just a great sports town in general.

[Slartibartfast]

5x5 last night. Tanking Bulls sold this guy for 3.5 million cash

Some caller into NBA Radio last night brought up a good point about Reinsdorf regarding this pick.

On June 21, 2017 - the Chicago White Sox signed their 1st round pick, Jake Burger to a contract with a signing bonus of $3.7 million.
On June 22, 2017 - the Chicago Bulls sell their 2nd round pick for $3.5 million.

Reinsdorf, of course, owns both teams, and has always favored the White Sox over the Bulls. I'd be pretty livid if I was a Bulls fan.

I'm a White Sox fan, and it still sucks. We just started blowing it up this year and will further when Quintana gets traded. It's the right move, but losing for a long time sucks regardless. That, and they changed the name of the ballpark to "Guaranteed Rate Field". The logo is literally a red, down arrow. The only plus is that so many other people in my generation are Cubs fans because of the history, and the fact that they play in the middle of a million bars, that Sox tickets can usually be had for close to free.

But Bulls fans definitely deserve better. Chicago is just a great sports town in general.

The White Sox were my team when I still paid attention to baseball. By far the best logo/uniform combo in sports. Big Hurt was my idol growing up.

[Jingles]

Going to scoff at any Jeff Green/Harrison Barnes comps for at least another year or two. Both still in college at the same point in their careers.

[Bostondave]

THere's something I think unique about Brown. He's super smart. And he's highly motivated. All along with being athletic. I expect him to study, practice and steadily improve. There are many players blessed with athletic abilities up the wazoo that clearly depend on that athleticism to get them over while their basketball IQ is in single digits. I would be extremely surprised if Jaylen did not improve each year in the league through sheer intellect, perseverance, skill and desire. A throwback of sorts but I've witnessed it firsthand. A guy with a move that was killer that teams and players played against, only for that player to work on something and perfect something else. And so on and so on. Jaylen strikes me as that sort of a player and we would rue bailing out on him too soon i think. I don't think he will rest until he squeezes out every bit of potential he has.

[tlee324]

Neither Brown or Tatum are comparable to Jeff Green. Brown has already proven to have more of a motor than Green ever displayed. Tatum has a higher floor than Green and has no problem at all taking shots and looking for his shots. He won't carry, in any way, shape, or form, Green's frustrating lack of aggression.

[Bostondave]

Case in point, all the athleticism in the world with no smarts, desire or drive to take it to it's full potential.

[KGboss]

Neither Brown or Tatum are comparable to Jeff Green. Brown has already proven to have more of a motor than Green ever displayed. Tatum has a higher floor than Green and has no problem at all taking shots and looking for his shots. He won't carry, in any way, shape, or form, Green's frustrating lack of aggression.

This board has an ugly habit of comparing every SF on this team to Jeff Green. There's a complex going on here.

[Green89]

Looks like the playoff summer league game is on at 6pm tonight, on espn2.