IT: Dead Last in DRPM

[cellar-door]

The defensive woes is way more about our poor rebounding and physical presence in the paint.

This.

The problem with this team is not IT's defense. It's interior defense, rebounding and scoring.

And this.

Of course it's at best half true. Our rebounding is garbage for sure. Our interior defense is just fine as long as IT isn't on the floor.

Edit- to clarify, our interior defense is pretty good, what it isn't is capable of offsetting IT 's weaknesses. Maybe an elite rim protector could but those are few and far between. Currently what happens is our bigs try to help on IT's man and can't recover back to protect the rim or glass.

[jmr07019]

Haven't read through the thread but looking at the DRPM of PG's I notice:

- only 18 / 86 point guards are listed with a positive DRPM, while 68/86 are listed as negative. It should be much closer to a 43/43 split if 0 is league average. 79% of point guards can't be below average defenders cus logic
- Ish Smith is the 9th best defensive point guard, Fred VanVleet the 10th, Lin the 13th, Curry the 16th, Rondo the 18th

There's a lot of noise in that list and I don't know how much stock I would put in it. That said, it's obvious IT is a negative on D, not debating that. Just not a huge fan on blanket stats especially defensive ones.

[jmr07019]

The defensive woes is way more about our poor rebounding and physical presence in the paint.

This.

The problem with this team is not IT's defense. It's interior defense, rebounding and scoring.

And this.

Of course it's at best half true. Our rebounding is garbage for sure. Our interior defense is just fine as long as IT isn't on the floor.

Our front court players are either good interior defenders or they are not. Horford, Amir, Kelly and Jerebko is not a great defensive group. I would say they are average at best. Horford is the only one who can block a shot or bang with the big centers.

[cellar-door]

This.



And this.

Of course it's at best half true. Our rebounding is garbage for sure. Our interior defense is just fine as long as IT isn't on the floor.

Our front court players are either good interior defenders or they are not. Horford, Amir, Kelly and Jerebko is not a great defensive group. I would say they are average at best. Horford is the only one who can block a shot or bang with the big centers.

It's probably an average to above average d group, but it is a group that is good at switching and positioning not at doubling then getting back to the rim or at having drivers funneled to them at the rim. Basically it's a good group for when we have two good defensive guards one with size on the floor (Bradley Smart) but having IT on the floor makes them play to their weaknesses instead of their strengths.

Most NBA players aren't good at everything. To give an offensive example, it's like having a bunch of spot up shooters. Great if you have guys who can draw the defense and kick to them. Not so great if you need them to create their own offense.

[mwhis21]

That said, if IT wants the glory for the offense even thought he only scores 20-25% of the points, than he should take some heat for being the worst defender in the league. Not ALL the heat but a majority of it.

That's 100% fair.

100% unfair.

Did you read my post about AB being ranked 319th in the league in DRPM last season but still making All Defensive First Team? That tells you all you need to know about how this stat is not accurate. Is that what you are using to say IT is the worst in the league?? He's got more than 80 players ranking below him in Def Rtg, such as Evan Fournier, Derrick Rose, and Damian Lillard. Multiple guards in the league have worse Defensive Win Shares than IT, and are letting opponents shoot a higher FG%. Thomas also ranks 32nd in steals out of 56 point guards in the league, so 24 point guards don't force as many turnovers as Thomas does.

IT is not the worst defensive player in the league.

1000% fair. It's not one single stat. It's a combination of baseline stats and advanced statistics.

You're single-mindedly focused on statistics, and not considering the impact that his defensive ineptitude is having on the rest of the team. For instance, and I encourage you to look for this over the next couple of games, teams are targeting IT on almost every possession. Honestly, I don't care about the mis-match, iso conversation at this point. It's more that teams are immediately targeting IT with the PnR and taking the one big man we have out to the three point line. Al Horford doesn't get rebounds because he's never near the rim. The reason why Crowder and Bradley are top 3 in rebounding for us is because they are spread out on the baseline and crashing with their guy.

It's not just about the statistics it's that other teams are now game planning around exposing IT, and the trickle down has impacted everyone on the floor.

I find it odd that on one hand you're using last years data to disprove certain statistics but then arguing that rebounding and lack of big man is our problem. Last year, we had the same challenges this team has (Rebounding and Big Men) and it wasn't a problem for our defense. They went out and signed Horford who in theory should have helped. Yet a Top 5 defense has become a Bottom 5 defense.

The difference? Teams know our weakness and are exploiting it.

Brad is not above reproach here. Maybe he needs to mix in some zone, or as another poster said put IT on an island. One thing is for sure we can't have two guys playing off ball shading help to IT. It is killing us.

[mwhis21]

The defensive woes is way more about our poor rebounding and physical presence in the paint.

This.

The problem with this team is not IT's defense. It's interior defense, rebounding and scoring.

And this.

Of course it's at best half true. Our rebounding is garbage for sure. Our interior defense is just fine as long as IT isn't on the floor.

Edit- to clarify, our interior defense is pretty good, what it isn't is capable of offsetting IT 's weaknesses. Maybe an elite rim protector could but those are few and far between. Currently what happens is our bigs try to help on IT's man and can't recover back to protect the rim or glass.

This. It's really easy to see. The PnR is killing us.

[jfs1000d]

Haven't read through the thread but looking at the DRPM of PG's I notice:

- only 18 / 86 point guards are listed with a positive DRPM, while 68/86 are listed as negative. It should be much closer to a 43/43 split if 0 is league average. 79% of point guards can't be below average defenders cus logic
- Ish Smith is the 9th best defensive point guard, Fred VanVleet the 10th, Lin the 13th, Curry the 16th, Rondo the 18th

There's a lot of noise in that list and I don't know how much stock I would put in it. That said, it's obvious IT is a negative on D, not debating that. Just not a huge fan on blanket stats especially defensive ones.

18 of 86 guards with positive DRPM? That's a red flag for the dumb stat.

[jfs1000d]

This.



And this.

Of course it's at best half true. Our rebounding is garbage for sure. Our interior defense is just fine as long as IT isn't on the floor.

Edit- to clarify, our interior defense is pretty good, what it isn't is capable of offsetting IT 's weaknesses. Maybe an elite rim protector could but those are few and far between. Currently what happens is our bigs try to help on IT's man and can't recover back to protect the rim or glass.

This. It's really easy to see. The PnR is killing us.

That's a bigs issue. Our defensive problems are interior. I am 1000000 convinced of that. IT is a liability, but he gives effort on defense and isn't a sieve.

[jfs1000d]

A story 11 months ago: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14799814/how-boston-celtics-built-top-3-defense

[BRUNiNHO91]

Brought to you by the same people that came up with the 'advanced conclusion' that the Spurs are worst defensive team with Kawhi on the court.

I remember back in the day people wanted to trade Ray Allen because the peek a boo offense and Ray Allen's defense 'hurt our team'..the same guy who led the 'trade Allen' squad never hesitated to point out that by 'his advanced stats' Renaldo Balkman should have been signed..and dude made it look pretty so people fell for it..this is basically the same **** all over again.

Without Isaiah Boston is lucky to be pushing 10 wins right now..he's an elite offensive player which is something we don't have. You want to minimize his defensive issues? Get a **** rebounder who can grab more boards than Bradley and get a rim protector that can jump over a stapler..guarantee our defense will be fine then. The problem here is that everybody regressed defensively, our bigs are horrendous, our bench is awful and we play a lot of rookies that can't defend.

[Green89]

The difference? Teams know our weakness and are exploiting it.

No, our weakness is our front court and I showed you stats that show a decline from last year. Solve the bigs issue and we solve our defensive woes.

[cellar-door]

A story 11 months ago: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14799814/how-boston-celtics-built-top-3-defense

Actually shows what we talked about in this thread. They point out how the Celtics were hiding IT on spot-up 3 shooters, and he was playing well against the 3 but poorly closer to the hoop. That isn't happening this year because teams are making the concerted effort to make sure they get the ball inside against IT, and/or keep forcing switches until IT is stuck on their drivers. Stevens did a great job last year of trying to hide IT and a lot of opponents let him. This year they are forcing IT to defend, and the options to stop it leave us weak elsewhere (either giving IT help or not switching everything).

[AgentGreen]

Why werent people making a big case about this last season?? Where were you then huh??

It's a team effort, AB and Crowder arent defending like they used to do. Amir has aged like 100 years in just on season. But no, lets blame it on IT, because he is the shortest guy on the court.

Plus i'm still concerned about Horford he hasn't improved our defensive game like we thought he would. Sully's big ass clogged the lain for us and thats the main difference so far and it made Amir also look better. We need a Noel type next to Horford and we will be pretty good again. Old man Amir is toast and needs a one way ticket to Amir Island, he isn't doing it anymore for us like last season.

I dont know why, but when i see Amir playing.. I think about a Horse Slaughterhouse. That's how much he has regressed in one season.

Teams weren't Targeting him last year like they are this year for one.
He's being targeted a lot more (about 5 more FGA against per/100 poss and about 10 more points per 100 poss, AND 4 AST more per 100 possessions)
Teams are going at IT more, and having more success, both in scoring against him and getting good looks on passes when help comes.

Yes some of the defense is slippage elsewhere, but a lot of it is just not being able to hide him. It also has a ripple effect, rotations because IT needs help strainss defense on shooters and rebounding positioning.
Teams have adjusted, now the question is what (if anything) can Brad and Danny do to stem the bleeding. Is it scheme? Is it personnel? Both? Neither?

Have to disagree with this. Team always make adjustments also during the season. I fint it hard to believe that the teams needed a whole season to make an adjustment on IT's game. It's more a team related problem at the moment imo. Most of our players have regressed in their defensive games lately and thats why IT's getting all the blame because he is the shortest guy on the court. Also the addition of Horford has to do with this, it looks like to me that he still isn't used to our defensive rotations. He has heavy legs and doesnt move that quickly and our defensive game demands to stay quick on your feet.

[Big Baby]

Last night in the fourth, with about 8:30 to go in the game, WAS picked up 4th team foul. The C's had none. All we had to do was play scrappy defense and try to get to the line and we could've made it a game. But...WAS revealed their playoff strategy by posting up IT over and over and 2 minutes later, BOS had 4 team fouls. Stevens switched Crowder on Beal and IT back on Wall. Then Wall just jumped all over him both literally and figuratively.

This is why, as I and many others have pointed out, we are not going anywhere with IT as our starter. He is too much of a liability on defense and will get exposed in the playoffs.

Last year our team defense was better but that's because Evan Turner was a very good wing defender who helped out IT a lot. This year, IT came into camp determined to make the all star team again. That was his singular focus. And in order to do that, he had to put up numbers which is why he never stopped shooting. And because he's been expending all his energy on offense, he has offered nothing but matador defense thus far. He doesn't hustle back and he doesn't dive for the ball unless he's chasing his own shot. It's easy to mask all that when we're playing all the laughingstocks of the league. But real teams will exploit and expose us mercilessly in the playoffs. But hey, he's going to be an all star again! He's scored 20 or more in 26 straight games! IT4MVP!!! Delusional.

I've once compared him to Carmelo Anthony and a lot of people thought it was ridiculous. Well, Carmelo's won a scoring title or two, too. Just nothing else in his career.

Since IT will never accept any other roles with Boston, Danny should trade him for Jabari Parker. Bought low, sell high.

[Big Baby]

I don't think it's lazy at all. It's lazy to say it's lazy and not explain why.

IT gets all the glory for the offense and the heroics, and rightfully so. It's been amazing.

But in turn he should get highlighted for being literally one of the WORST defenders in the league. It's putting an incredible strain on the defense having to cover up for him.

Yes our team defense has been brutal and we lack a rim protector but we play 4 on 5 every time up the floor. And guys are cheating off their man to help IT. It's a BIG TIME liability.

Not a lazy argument.

Hard to argue with him individually but we were still excellent despite him last year. While IT is horrible on d, some other guys simply are not trying as hard as last year.

Horrible on D is a bad work. He is limited. Horrible means he can't play D. [u]He's limited by his size. And, he should never be on Derozan. Derozan is 6-8. [/u]

I think IT needs to pressure the ball more, but to do that, we need a rim protector. I also think IT gets picked on more because you are dumb to attack Bradley and Crowder when you can attack IT. So, part of it is he's a weak link on what should be a good D team.

Our problems aren't IT related. I think we are getting killed inside and that's the issue. I thin our PF and C defense is more of an issue than perimeter.

Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to point out that no team in the playoffs is going to say, "Hey, we shouldn't put so and so on IT because it's not fair." Playoffs are all about exploiting match ups. They will back IT down. Over and over and over again.

[CeltsfaninDC]

Other players on that page - DeMarr DeRozen and Andrew Wiggins....
Player not on that page who is horrible at defense - The Matador, James Harden

[BRUNiNHO91]

Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to point out that no team in the playoffs is going to say, "Hey, we shouldn't put so and so on IT because it's not fair." Playoffs are all about exploiting match ups. They will back IT down. Over and over and over again.

Works both ways though. Every team has a smaller guard that can be somewhat abused and backed down in the paint by bigger guards. As a team you got another 4 guys out there and a coach that needs to find the best way to minimize this. Patty Mills is a small guy..but the Spurs have no problem keeping him away from a LeBron or a Beal. Boston won a championship with Eddie House playing big minutes and dude couldn't guard a chair..how many times did you see him guard Kobe? Or LeBron? It's not that simple. We have been in the playoffs for two years in a row against Cleveland and Atlanta, two elite teams at the time and in Atlanta's case they had the COY and how many times did anybody post Isaiah up? A couple times? Certainly not enough for it to be a problem or the main reason we lost either one of those series.

[Captain_Caveman]

Let me preface by acknowledging IT has been other-worldly offensively for this team (inspiring even) - he is unquestionably our best player (should be starting in the all star game) and our defensive problems are more than him, but it's hard to acknowledge that he is LITERALLY dead last in Real Defensive Plus-Minus in the league.

Dead Last:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/11/sort/DRPM

It doesn't matter how fast your boat goes if it has a hole in it, it's gonna sink eventually.

So you guys tell me:
- Should we overlook his defensive deficiencies because of his offensive output (he is top 10 ORPM)
- IT really worth a max?
- IT really be starting? Would his defensive liabilities be better covered up as a 6th man?
- How much does this correlate to our rebounding and defensive big woes?

There's no way we should pay him $30m a year and prop him up as a franchise player. Can already predict that would end in 2nd round misery, time and again. I love dude's heart, but you'd figure that a fanbase who watched Russell, Bird and KG would already know the difference between a true star and a fake one.

[Captain_Caveman]

Other players on that page - DeMarr DeRozen and Andrew Wiggins....
Player not on that page who is horrible at defense - The Matador, James Harden

And despite him playing at an MVP level, the Rockets will also never win a title with Harden leading the charge.

[cellar-door]

Other players on that page - DeMarr DeRozen and Andrew Wiggins....
Player not on that page who is horrible at defense - The Matador, James Harden

Harden isn't actually a bad defensive player this year. It's all about effort with him, last year he didn't try, his D was terrible, 2014-15 when he almost won MVP he played really good D. He's basically entirely effort dependent on D much like Rondo was, when he isn't lazy he's pretty good, when he is lazy... he's terrible.