The big man rotation

[Gant]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

[ThePigeon]

KP is a liability on defense when guarding the 3 pt line. He does a good job when sticking to the paint. We need more repetitions to test the match-up zone or something that will keep him in the paint
On offense he just stops the ball movement when he gets the ball in the post (if getting the ball on the free throw line can be called that). This is an ugly and unproductive way of playing basketball. Too many times he is stopped by smaller guys, stripped or bothered to miss and complain for a foul. Need more movement or getting the ball closer to the basket

Also, all our bigs have issues getting rebounds. This needs to be fixed ASAP. Get Parish or Ben Wallace to explain that it is mostly will

I think that right now we are the 80's Celtics minus the high BBall IQ, competitiveness, intensity and pride

[playa-hater]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

I will now redundantly point out again that having all of our 5 healthy only leads to the difficult challenge of feeding all of our starters. There just isn't enough BBalls to get everyone going. Tatum often sacrifices his FG attempts in the 1st quarter for the Sake of KP and JB. With Tatum already getting off to a slow start, White and Jrue are often left chasing for scraps. Having a non-ball needy player who can still be somewhat of an impact would gel this team so much better.

[zoyathedestroya]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

I will now redundantly point out again that having all of our 5 healthy only leads to the difficult challenge of feeding all of our starters. There just isn't enough BBalls to get everyone going. Tatum often sacrifices his FG attempts in the 1st quarter for the Sake of KP and JB. With Tatum already getting off to a slow start, White and Jrue are often left chasing for scraps. Having a non-ball needy player who can still be somewhat of an impact would gel this team so much better.

Cs need a better offensive system where everybody eats. The mismatch hunting only works when opposing teams send a second man and ball moves for us. When opponents “stay home”, it leads to stagnant, slow iso ball. But I guess that’s more conducive to playoff basketball I dunno.

Cavs have stars too but they don’t dominate possessions. Anyone can go off any given night.

[165bows]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

These are really interesting but I’d also like to see it cross referenced with opponent quality. Ie I know they load Luke up and he crushes it against bad teams.

[Gant]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

These are really interesting but I’d also like to see it cross referenced with opponent quality. Ie I know they load Luke up and he crushes it against bad teams.

I did glance at opponent quality. Basically, OKC and the Cavs are the real deal but only account for two losses. All centers have played against a wide range of teams.

[return2glory]

I was thinking about this yesterday. Joe will never do this because he has a hard time going with anything out of this routine rotation, which is costing the team games.

It's obvious the bench needs improvement. It's also apparent that the team was playing better without KP.

This is the change I would make that Joe wouldn't.

PF: Tatum
SF: Brown
C: Queta
SG: Jrue
PG: White

Bench: KP, Pritchard, Al, Hauser

The starting lineup with Queta will have better defense, better rebounding and one less guy to feed to score. In addition, we would be getting more open looks because Queta is really good at setting solid screens to get guys open, while KP doesn't set good screens at all right now.

KP off the bench provides the bench with more balanced scoring. He can still play his 28-32 minutes a game. Pritchard would have less pressure of being the primary scorer off the bench.

I would still want us to add Lonnie Walker to the bench or another vet wing.

I feel a minor change like this will get the team back on track to being a legit contender like last season.

[Gant]

* The Celtics are 8-7 when Porzingis plays. That's 7 out of the 11 losses.
* The Celtics lose mostly when they shoot poorly from 3.

Overall the Celtics as a team have shot worse from 3 when Porzingis plays. (I don't have the stats, but this has to be true.)
Their spacing seems off when Porzingis plays.


This does not address the other big issue, which is recent fourth quarter defense.

As a general rule, the Celtics can win even if they shoot poorly from 3, and they can win even if their late game defense isn't great. But they can't win much if both things are happening at the same time.

[playa-hater]

* The Celtics are 8-7 when Porzingis plays. That's 7 out of the 11 losses.
* The Celtics lose mostly when they shoot poorly from 3.

Overall the Celtics as a team have shot worse from 3 when Porzingis plays. (I don't have the stats, but this has to be true.)
Their spacing seems off when Porzingis plays.


This does not address the other big issue, which is recent fourth quarter defense.

As a general rule, the Celtics can win even if they shoot poorly from 3, and they can win even if their late game defense isn't great. But they can't win much if both things are happening at the same time.

because KP spends most of his time at or near the top of the key. That of course can lead to 5 guys standing out on the perimeter. Good thing Jrue, our shortest starter doesn't mind flashing underneath on occasion. Having a vertical spacer would work so much better than 5 and out.

[Gant]

I was thinking about this yesterday. Joe will never do this because he has a hard time going with anything out of this routine rotation, which is costing the team games.

It's obvious the bench needs improvement. It's also apparent that the team was playing better without KP.

This is the change I would make that Joe wouldn't.

PF: Tatum
SF: Brown
C: Queta
SG: Jrue
PG: White

Bench: KP, Pritchard, Al, Hauser

The starting lineup with Queta will have better defense, better rebounding and one less guy to feed to score. In addition, we would be getting more open looks because Queta is really good at setting solid screens to get guys open, while KP doesn't set good screens at all right now.

KP off the bench provides the bench with more balanced scoring. He can still play his 28-32 minutes a game. Pritchard would have less pressure of being the primary scorer off the bench.

I would still want us to add Lonnie Walker to the bench or another vet wing.

I feel a minor change like this will get the team back on track to being a legit contender like last season.

Porzingis coming off the bench is a worthwhile idea.

It should not be considered a demotion, as the revered green 6th man has a heralded history. Porzingis would be quite a ways below the most talented players ever to fill that role.

[shackles10]

I was thinking about this yesterday. Joe will never do this because he has a hard time going with anything out of this routine rotation, which is costing the team games.

It's obvious the bench needs improvement. It's also apparent that the team was playing better without KP.

This is the change I would make that Joe wouldn't.

PF: Tatum
SF: Brown
C: Queta
SG: Jrue
PG: White

Bench: KP, Pritchard, Al, Hauser

The starting lineup with Queta will have better defense, better rebounding and one less guy to feed to score. In addition, we would be getting more open looks because Queta is really good at setting solid screens to get guys open, while KP doesn't set good screens at all right now.

KP off the bench provides the bench with more balanced scoring. He can still play his 28-32 minutes a game. Pritchard would have less pressure of being the primary scorer off the bench.

I would still want us to add Lonnie Walker to the bench or another vet wing.

I feel a minor change like this will get the team back on track to being a legit contender like last season.

Porzingis coming off the bench is a worthwhile idea.

It should not be considered a demotion, as the revered green 6th man has a heralded history. Porzingis would be quite a ways below the most talented players ever to fill that role.

In a vacuum I like it. Kills the PP for 6MOY narrative if they care about that kind of stuff though. Should always be about what's best for the team, but risking upsetting mid-season the ego's of 1/4 of our rotation guys in PP (who feels worthy now after asking for a trade just a couple seasons ago) and KP (who's never been a bench player and not a Horford situation where you do it to start the season after discussion) can't be completely ignored either. If it is what's best for the team, that might not be super great for the team to have both at least a little disgruntled.

[playa-hater]

The simple Fact that Joe keeps grooming the tag-team of Al and Kornet (Or Kornet and anyone) together and the thought of Joe using those 2 slow-footed Bigman as part of a playoff rotation against teams that will surely look to exploit that makes me think Joe has no clue.

Prove me wrong Joe...

[ConstableGeneva]

Al + Kornet: 104.3 defensive rating (would rank 2nd in league behind OKC), +11.2 net
KP single big: 118.7 defensive rating (would rank dead last in league), -8.6 net

[jfs1000d]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

I don’t know what to say.

[ConstableGeneva]

Al + Kornet: 104.3 defensive rating (would rank 2nd in league behind OKC), +11.2 net
KP single big: 118.7 defensive rating (would rank dead last in league), -8.6 net

Site was glitching earlier. Continued...

Queta, single big: 126.0 ORtg, 110.3 DRtg, +15.7 net
Horford, single big: 123.8 ORtg, 111.2 DRtg, +12.6 net
Kornet, single big: 122.9 ORtg, 109.5 Drtg, +13.4 net

KP needs to shape up and deliver, impact games better. Seriously, we were doing great without him lol.

Al + KP: 116.9 ORtg, 107.7 DRtg, +9.2 net

KP as single big has to work if they're sticking with our starting five from last season.

Our regular starting five: 109.1 ORtg, 117.3 DRtg, -8.2 net (gross!)

[Jammer]

A few stats after 38 games.

Celtics record with Porzingis: 8-7
Celtics record without Porzingis 19-4

Celtics record with Horford: 20-10
Celtics record without Horford: 7-1

Celtics record when Kornet plays more than 10 minutes: 19-7
When Kornet plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 8-4

Celtics record when Queta plays more than 10 minutes: 17-4
When Queta plays less than 10 minutes or doesn't play: 10-7

I don’t know what to say.

Yes you do.

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[threrf23]

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Don't agree, a.) he can drive inside and feed an open Jrue for 3, b.) he is shooting 4-22 from 3 this season, 3.) he has the potential to be an outright elite defensive player, it's one thing if he is hurt and not even living up to his potential on the defensive end, but in theory he is in the game for his defense. The notion he has to shoot shoot shoot to warrant playing time feeds in to a team identity centered around three point shooting which is futile, and contributes to lost poise and collapses where our shots are not falling.

[shackles10]

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Don't agree, a.) he can drive inside and feed an open Jrue for 3, b.) he is shooting 4-22 from 3 this season, 3.) he has the potential to be an outright elite defensive player, it's one thing if he is hurt and not even living up to his potential on the defensive end, but in theory he is in the game for his defense. The notion he has to shoot shoot shoot to warrant playing time feeds in to a team identity centered around three point shooting which is futile, and contributes to lost poise and collapses where our shots are not falling.

Just rewatched this play. You're right he could do all of those things. The problem though is he didn't do any of those things. He kind of did "a", but it wasn't a true drive at all. Dribble is more apt. Couple of them to the free throw line and when defense can easily stay in front of him and contain Jrue from the corner because they didn't need to actually help on Tillman's "drive" Jrue slides over and takes the hand-off and the play is dead from there. 2:30 left in the 1st if you want to check it out. Play ends with him pick and roll from Jrue and a highly contested missed layup from Tillman. The open 3 would have been a much better shot.

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Don't agree, a.) he can drive inside and feed an open Jrue for 3, b.) he is shooting 4-22 from 3 this season, 3.) he has the potential to be an outright elite defensive player, it's one thing if he is hurt and not even living up to his potential on the defensive end, but in theory he is in the game for his defense. The notion he has to shoot shoot shoot to warrant playing time feeds in to a team identity centered around three point shooting which is futile, and contributes to lost poise and collapses where our shots are not falling.

Just rewatched this play. You're right he could do all of those things. The problem though is he didn't do any of those things. He kind of did "a", but it wasn't a true drive at all. Dribble is more apt. Couple of them to the free throw line and when defense can easily stay in front of him and contain Jrue from the corner because they didn't need to actually help on Tillman's "drive" Jrue slides over and takes the hand-off and the play is dead from there. 2:30 left in the 1st if you want to check it out. Play ends with him pick and roll from Jrue and a highly contested missed layup from Tillman. The open 3 would have been a much better shot.

Yeah. If the ball is in your hands when you're open, you HAVE to be threat to make the opponent pay.

A non-shooting big can do that if he's good enough on the DHO and subsequent roll (e.g. Luke). Somebody who's efficient driving into a crowd might be OK too, but in practice that rarely seems to work except for a few early-career PGs. Otherwise you need to shoot.