Bears Eat Our Faces! Loss vs MEM 12/7

[Jellybeans]

Teams need us ice cold and tired as hell to even play us close. I just want us to stay healthy at this point.

True.. But we wouldn't be as "tired" If Joe would expand his rotation and develop other players. Case in point.. Hauser goes down.. We struggle making shots and Joe starts the 4th with Kornet and Queta.. Even with Al available, what If this happens again in the playoffs?? More double Big lineups??

Double bigs was working with Q/KP lineup and we came back.
KP went to bench and our O died simply because we couldnt score. This wasnt our night simple as that.

[ConstableGeneva]

I'm definitely not happy with the amount of 3s the Celtics are shooting, but that's on the coach.

The defensive effort on the other hand, that's more on the players, and that's a bigger issue, IMO.

To me, the three-ball is a constant. Celtics will not change their identity in that regard. Whether we're taking 40 or 60, fans will find ways to point to it in a loss.

This is too simplistic but... (with amount of threes being a constant)

Cs are average shooting their threes + play stingy defense => usually a double-digit win
Cs are above average shooting 3s + play stingy defense => blowout win
Cs are below average shooting 3s + play stingy defense => close win
Cs are below average shooting 3s + subpar defense => close loss

The high volume of 3s gives the Celtics a high floor against most teams. What will raise their ceiling is their defense specifically limiting opponent 3s.

Even after the loss, the Celtics have a 19.26-point advantage PER GAME against their opponents because of the amount of threes they take.

I can live with them chucking 3s if they make it up with defense, since a 3pt chucking offense means less physicality on the offensive end. The problem is, sometimes when they shoot poorly it affects their defense as well.

Then don't let the poor shooting affect the defense (which happens sometimes to everyone, not just the Cs). 'Cos a team can shoot poorly whether it's from 3 or 2 (missed layups/midrangers).

Wanna see the Cs climb up the defensive rankings. We ended 2nd last regular season. Currently 10th.

[TheMartian]

I'm definitely not happy with the amount of 3s the Celtics are shooting, but that's on the coach.

I think there’s like a fundamental difference among fans on the question of 3PTA. To some fans there are not “bad” 3PTA because offensive output is largely a function of how many 3s you attempt. An NBA shooter can make pretty much any 3PTA so you are largely winning the battle if you attempt more than your opponent.

And other fans argue that if a 3PTA looks like a bad attempt then that consists a bad possession. A bad 3PTA doesn’t work the defense, or is early in the shot clock, or is too far behind the line, or is contested by the defender or whatever … the viewer goes, “that’s a bad shot” … a fundamentally bad shot, it doesn’t matter that it could be worth 3 points, you shouldn’t take it.

Joe Mazzulla is a coach who believes that attempting more 3PTA than the opponent is important of itself.

“I know you guys all think it’s funny,” Mazzulla said. “But the 3-point attempt rate is the most important stat in the game of basketball because of the pace of play, shot selection, and the ability to go on runs. When you get outshot by 14 threes, the potential points there are crucial because it gives you way more shots and way more opportunities.”

So I don’t know that I’ve heard Joe talk about avoiding bad 3PTAs because almost every 3PTA is a good attempt if your prime goal is to have the highest 3-point attempt rate possible. So anyway, most longtime Celtics fan would not say “3PTA rate is the most important stat in basketball” and so this is the fundamental tension among the fans.

I’ve been a Celtics fan since I was a kid in the Bird era and I personally would NOT say that 3 point attempt rate is the most important stat in basketball. Tonight’s game we took 60 3PTA and Memphis took 33 3PTA and I thought Memphis played much better than we did

Here is where the problem is. If all 3PTA are considered good shot attempts, then that mindset is flawed.

[ConstableGeneva]

The way they play in the regular season (or in one game in the regular season) doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be how they play in the playoffs.

Case in point... JT and JB averaged around 19 combined drives per game in the regular season, increased during the 1st 3 rounds of the playoffs, then doubled in the Finals even with Dallas having two rim protectors. (3-pt attempt rate slightly increased from regular season to playoffs to Finals)

30%+ usage for Jrue and low 20s usage for JT is an anomaly, not the norm, in any scenario. If this happens in 4 games in a series, our coach is an idiot (for not adjusting) or JT is playing super injured.

[ConstableGeneva]

via Jay King:

NEW STORY: Marcus Smart and his wife brought their two-month-old son, Zayn, to the game Saturday. Smart wanted to introduce Zayn to the Celtics players and staffers. He also wanted Zayn to be there to experience the love for Smart inside TD Garden, even if Zayn can’t understand it yet.

“One day,” Smart told me, “he can understand, he can see the impact his dad had on the city and on the team where he started his journey.”

On a return game that went far beyond basketball. Link: https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5977435/2024/12/08/marcus-smart-celtics-grizzlies-son/

[ParticleMan]

really weird to be complaining about our 3pt-focused offense on this night when
- we won a championship with it last year
- we are 19-5 this year
- we have the 3rd best offensive efficiency in the league
- we've had KP out most of the year
- we lost to a hungry and energetic memphis team on the 5th game in 7 nights after an emotional win the night before and where we shot anomalously poorly and jrue holiday led us in shot attempts.

is this really the game you want to hold up as exhibit A that we should shoot less 3's?

i'm as old school as the next guy so yeah it's weird to see this longball fascination but also if it ain't broke....

[ConstableGeneva]

Watch on YouTube

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Watch on YouTube

[Smart2Nesmith43]

Last time the Celtics played 5 games in 7 nights, the last game of that stretch they were down 40 at the half and Mazzulla had to pull the starters, just for perspective.

It's not exactly surprising that the oldest guy on the floor didn't have any legs to make shots. Honestly I love Holiday but he probably is at the point of his career where they need to rest him on back to backs.

[Fierce1]

really weird to be complaining about our 3pt-focused offense on this night when
- we won a championship with it last year
- we are 19-5 this year
- we have the 3rd best offensive efficiency in the league
- we've had KP out most of the year
- we lost to a hungry and energetic memphis team on the 5th game in 7 nights after an emotional win the night before and where we shot anomalously poorly and jrue holiday led us in shot attempts.

is this really the game you want to hold up as exhibit A that we should shoot less 3's?

i'm as old school as the next guy so yeah it's weird to see this longball fascination but also if it ain't broke....

So true.

I can't believe that some here actually believe the Cs will attempt 50 3s in the playoffs.

Style of play and pace of the playoffs just won't allow it.

Last season the Pacers averaged 123 ppg in the season.

But in the playoffs, they averaged 113 ppg, a drop of 10 pts.

The Celtics are clearly messing around and some are falling for it.

This is like Joe not calling timeouts in the season but called every timeout that needed to be called in the playoffs.

[cl2117]

The offensive philosophy is sound, it just comes down to execution on any given night.

The real question coming out of this game is what is Joe going to do when teams stick their C on Jrue and dare him to beat us. I don't love the idea of putting the outcome of the game entirely on his shoulders, but I know he can do it. Joe doesn't have to let Jrue hoist up 20+ shots either, we can still let other guys eat even if they're daring Jrue to shoot.

Alternatively Pritchard could be the answer in those games, but does open up some defensive issues obviously by switching those two guys out. Hauser too, play White/Brown/Hauser/Tatum/KP and we can still rain down three's like arrows picking apart the opposing team.

As others have said, at 19-5 with good advanced stats, having missed guys for stretches and KP for the majority, we're in an a great spot to repeat.

[Homerclease]

The Warriors tried this strategy last year with JB and got blown out in historic fashion. Grizz did it tonight and were fortunate the Celtics missed a ton of open shots. Not even Jrue for that matter. White, JT, Hauser, KP all with multiple 3 point looks with no defender within 5 feet and they just didn’t fall. If any team tried this style of defense against Boston in a 7 game series, they’d lose in 5

[ConstableGeneva]

Celtics shooting wide open and open threes prior to last night:
Open: 38.5% on 21.6 attempts
Wide Open: 39.3% on 21.5 attempts

vs. Grizzlies:
Open: 21.4% on 14.0 attempts
Wide Open: 32.4% on 37.0 attempts

So far below the norm. And we lost by two missed threes.

[phincsfan]

Regular season loss during the second night of a back to back against a team who's playing well.

Nothing against Memphis but when a 35% 3pt shooting team shoots 45% and does a good job in the turnover department it's pretty much gonna end up this way.

JT, Jrue and KP were 8 for 37 behind the 3line

I saw a tired team who was sloppy and lived by the 3 ball last night.

[31to6]

had this game been scheduled for today (Sunday) instead I'd bet a lot of $$ on the Celtics winning it

oh well
GG Grizz and OMFG Marcus thanks for getting us KP + picks

[Parasite]

Say what you want about the way the Celts play the game, and it won us a championship last year so I won’t complain too much about our offense, but I can totally understand why the NBA is losing popularity precipitously. It’s just not a fun or very interesting type of basketball to watch.

Our defense needs to tighten up. That’s my major concern. If we aren’t playing better defense by the end of January I think we are going to have major problems repeating because I don’t think that’s something you can just turn on in the playoffs. Maybe the Celtics think differently. Let’s see how that works out for them. Maybe it will.

[NYCelticsfan136]

really weird to be complaining about our 3pt-focused offense on this night when
- we won a championship with it last year
- we are 19-5 this year
- we have the 3rd best offensive efficiency in the league
- we've had KP out most of the year
- we lost to a hungry and energetic memphis team on the 5th game in 7 nights after an emotional win the night before and where we shot anomalously poorly and jrue holiday led us in shot attempts.

is this really the game you want to hold up as exhibit A that we should shoot less 3's?

i'm as old school as the next guy so yeah it's weird to see this longball fascination but also if it ain't broke....

I am sorry but attempting 60 3 pointers is ridiculous. People always bring up golden state but golden state if you look at their first 3 champions teams they attempted that many 3s like that. It’s one thing if they were making them but 18/60 is god awful. Anyway 19-5 you take but i wonder if they’re better than cleveland right now.

[Shak_Celts]

I think our 3s are hiding our D, they keep asking about our three-point shooting, but I want to know about our poor defense. They need to ask why the players think it’s not good. I asked about Joe not mentioning it like last season. He kept saying that they had to talk about it more throughout the season and that they didn’t emphasize it enough the season prior, so they let it slip. This season I never hear about the defense, but I don’t watch every post game.

[fallguy]

This loss is on Joe and Jrue. Jrue was terrible offensively (and didn't exactly shut down anybody on defense either). But this is Joe's major failing as a coach. If plan A doesn't work, plan B comes late, if at all. There was no reason Jrue had to take that many shots given the way Memphis was defending. Corner threes sure. Everything else, no. There are so many actions that would have opened up shots for other guys.

[fallguy]

Say what you want about the way the Celts play the game, and it won us a championship last year so I won’t complain too much about our offense, but I can totally understand why the NBA is losing popularity precipitously. It’s just not a fun or very interesting type of basketball to watch.

Our defense needs to tighten up. That’s my major concern. If we aren’t playing better defense by the end of January I think we are going to have major problems repeating because I don’t think that’s something you can just turn on in the playoffs. Maybe the Celtics think differently. Let’s see how that works out for them. Maybe it will.

Agree with your first point. There's also so much noise around the three-point heavy nature of the game that I expect there will be changes to emphasize other offensive strategies eventually. What we really need is a larger court and a longer three point shot. Or move to 4's and 3's instead of 3's and 2's. Which would actually be the best option.

Also agree about the defense. It remains our (potential) achilles heel.

[Shak_Celts]

This loss is on Joe and Jrue. Jrue was terrible offensively (and didn't exactly shut down anybody on defense either). But this is Joe's major failing as a coach. If plan A doesn't work, plan B comes late, if at all. There was no reason Jrue had to take that many shots given the way Memphis was defending. Corner threes sure. Everything else, no. There are so many actions that would have opened up shots for other guys.

Same reason KP took them at the end, they were open. Jrue will never shoot that many again because teams will have to guard him, no way he misses like that again. I also think we should have drove when we were wide open like that, but no one likes the mid anymore.

I want us to take a bazillion threes every game but if the shot isn’t falling, why can’t we drive a little and take a mid just to change the defense. Missed threes can also lead to a lot of fast breaks.

If it’s JT missing those 3s people would be yelling at him to start driving! If it was JB they’d say don’t shoot or take him out he’s selfish. If that’s the case, we should have wanted Jrue and KP to do the same. I think Jrue tried at one point but he was missing bunnies too.