OT: Officer Crowley

[Joyeuse]

If you think individuals of the branch of the government whos job is to protect and serve doesnt deserve basic human respect when hes doing his job, then you will have problems in your life.

Nobody here has argued that Crowley didn't deserve more respect than what he received from Gates. Nobody has argued that Gates was being civil and respectful and .

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am arguing that there was no cause to arrest Gates.

Gates is the civilian, yet he did not behave in a *civil* manner, i.e. to adhere to the norms of polite social intercourse.

Which, incidentally, is not by itself a crime. And even if it were a crime, failing to be polite is the type of crime where police shouldn't automatically resort to arrest at the first possibility. Making an arrest is an extreme action. Arrests should be reserved for situations where allowing someone to run free would make him a threat to society.

I don't think police need to "hold his hands", but they should be trained to deal with situations like this. We should hold our public servants to a high standard because they are being entrusted with special authorities. Police officers should be able to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should be TRAINED to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should not be arresting people for failing to show proper respect to authorities unless doing so could be dangerous.

I see it this way - kudos to the officers for making an example of a man who thought he could act out of line and get away with it.

Perhaps I am biased, being only half white myself, but I believe officers "making an example of" people like Gates (blacks and non-white Hispanics) at disproportionately high rates is a huge part of why we distrust the police so much in the first place. "Making an example of" Gates is likely to just make black men more distrustful of police, and more likely to abuse police officers.

[sweatdog]

^ "Why didn't Crowley assume it was Gates home and simply ask him if everything is okay?"

Any cop would tell you that is a great way to get hurt on the job. When there is even the slightest degree of the unknown then they take everything very seriously, including a B&E with a man who *probably* lives there, OR *possibly* doesnt.

[HighAboveCourtside]

Gates overreacted to being asked to step outside as if he was suspect in a crime in his own home. Why didn't Crowley assume it was Gates home and simply ask him if everything is okay? Did he run? No he was on the phone. Lets not get into the "norms of polite behavior."

I'm sorry, but you're just dumb. "As if he was a suspect"? HE WAS A SUSPECT!!! A neighbor called to report two black men breaking into a house. GATES WAS A BLACK MAN BREAKING INTO A HOUSE!!!! The police aren't supposed to investigate this??? So the police should just ASSUME that any "suspects" at a crime scene are really just innocent people and take them at their word? Yeah, that's probably the dumbest thing that could've happened. Gates should have just STFU, gave his ID, and felt good that his home was being protected (considering it had already been burglarized once before). Instead, he played the race card, like a coward.

[greenbeans]

The fact this situation has grown into what it is now says a lot more about race in the media than it does about racism as a whole, immo.

[sweatdog]

If you think individuals of the branch of the government whos job is to protect and serve doesnt deserve basic human respect when hes doing his job, then you will have problems in your life.

Nobody here has argued that Crowley didn't deserve more respect than what he received from Gates. Nobody has argued that Gates was being civil and respectful and .

I can't speak for anyone else, but I am arguing that there was no cause to arrest Gates.

Gates is the civilian, yet he did not behave in a *civil* manner, i.e. to adhere to the norms of polite social intercourse.

Which, incidentally, is not by itself a crime. And even if it were a crime, failing to be polite is the type of crime where police shouldn't automatically resort to arrest at the first possibility. Making an arrest is an extreme action. Arrests should be reserved for situations where allowing someone to run free would make him a threat to society.

I don't think police need to "hold his hands", but they should be trained to deal with situations like this. We should hold our public servants to a high standard because they are being entrusted with special authorities. Police officers should be able to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should be TRAINED to ignore non-threatening verbal abuse in most circumstances. They should not be arresting people for failing to show proper respect to authorities unless doing so could be dangerous.

I see it this way - kudos to the officers for making an example of a man who thought he could act out of line and get away with it.

Perhaps I am biased, being only half white myself, but I believe officers "making an example of" people like Gates (blacks and non-white Hispanics) at disproportionately high rates is a huge part of why we distrust the police so much in the first place. "Making an example of" Gates is likely to just make black men more distrustful of police, and more likely to abuse police officers.

Any officer who hesitates to do the appropriate thing because someone might view it racist is way too insecure for his job and will certainly end up defending himself for discrimination anyway by trying to walk on eggshells with every suspect he encounters.

[Joyeuse]

The fact this situation has grown into what it is now says a lot more about race in the media than it does about racism as a whole, immo.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Do you think the controversial arrest of a prominent black Harvard scholar should not raise major interest in the national media about contemporary political and civil rights issues and how they may or may not relate to the situation?

[Joyeuse]

Any officer who hesitates to do the appropriate thing because someone might view it racist is way too insecure for his job and will certainly end up defending himself for discrimination anyway by trying to walk on eggshells with every suspect he encounters.

The point is that arresting a man for being disrespectful wasn't "the appropriate thing".

The following is all true to the best of our knowledge:
a) The arrest occurred on Gates' property, after the police had already verified it was his property and were in the process of leaving.
b) Gates did not physically harm anyone or attempt to physically harm anyone.
c) The police officers did not see Gates as posing an obvious physical threat to themselves or to society as a whole.
d) Instead of ignoring the inconsequential confrontation, the officers decided to arrest Gates on a very minor charge that basically amounts to being a public nuisance.

In light of all that information, I don't see how an arrest was appropriate, regardless of Gates' race.

My last point was just about how police trying to "make an example of" people who show disrespect to them has contributed to racial tensions between police officers and people of color. "Making an example of" a black professor for disrespecting the police will only serve to hinder cooperation between black men and police by reinforcing racial tensions. It's not as if black men don't already believe police are willing to arrest them for any charge they can think of if the police feel as if they are not receiving enough respect.

[sully00]

Gates overreacted to being asked to step outside as if he was suspect in a crime in his own home. Why didn't Crowley assume it was Gates home and simply ask him if everything is okay? Did he run? No he was on the phone. Lets not get into the "norms of polite behavior."

I'm sorry, but you're just dumb. "As if he was a suspect"? HE WAS A SUSPECT!!! A neighbor called to report two black men breaking into a house. GATES WAS A BLACK MAN BREAKING INTO A HOUSE!!!! The police aren't supposed to investigate this??? So the police should just ASSUME that any "suspects" at a crime scene are really just innocent people and take them at their word? Yeah, that's probably the dumbest thing that could've happened. Gates should have just STFU, gave his ID, and felt good that his home was being protected (considering it had already been burglarized once before). Instead, he played the race card, like a coward.

Did you read the police report or Gates description of the events?

By your comments apparently not which makes you ignorant and dumb.

There are specifics at hand no need to generalize.

The police came to the door and asked Gates to step outside he refused and identified himself as the tenant of the home and Harvard professor. At that point the officer questioned the validity of that to a point that offended the professor. He provided the credentials and attempted to contact the chief of police.

At that point you say "sorry about the mix up Doc just doing our job." If he can't handle it then give him your name and badge number and leave.

The race card was played by a woman who could neither believe or even stop to ask whether the two African American gentlemen working on the stuck front door in broad daylight lived there or were robbing the place.

The race card was played by a cop who could not perceive that perhaps a an older black man may actually be a Harvard professor and in his own home. Nor accept that he might be a little indignant about the fact that he was assumed to be robbing his own home because of his race.

So save the indignation if Gates had stepped out on the porch initially he would have ended up in the same place he did in cuffs. In the end the cop arrested a man not because he broke the law but to prove a point and now he is having that point proved back to him.

[sweatdog]

So for kicks I can approach an officer and verbally abuse him until im blue in the face or he gets in his cruiser and speeds away? As long as I dont come across as threatening ...

Sorry that doesnt fly on Cape Cod. I guess we have sensitive cops down here.

And people please... Gates was not simply being disrespectful... you dont jerk around a cop whos trying to do his job, they are conditioned to expect danger first, both through their officer training and the stories they hear and experiences on the job. You think cops have never died in B&E scenarios? Cops have died in ******* parking ticket scenarios.

[sully00]

So for kicks I can approach an officer and verbally abuse him until im blue in the face or he gets in his cruiser and speeds away? As long as I dont come across as threatening ...

Sorry that doesnt fly on Cape Cod. I guess we have sensitive cops down here.

Way to miss the point.

Conversely, if a police officer knocked on your door and asked you to step outside and you asked why and he said because we got a call that a two Celtics fan were robbing the house and obviously a Celtics fan couldn't own a house on the Cape so put your hands against the wall and spread 'em.

You would have the right to be a tad indignant. More importantly you have the right to refuse and until they place you under arrest, which they did not do until he stepped out on to his porch because then could not trump up the charge. Because yes you could have yelled from your house "is this what happens to Celtic fans in America?" and "you are prejudice against Celtic Fans." Until a neighbor complained about the noise.

[Joyeuse]

So for kicks I can approach an officer and verbally abuse him until im blue in the face or he gets in his cruiser and speeds away? As long as I dont come across as threatening ...

Sorry that doesnt fly on Cape Cod. I guess we have sensitive cops down here.

I don't think that insulting a police officer to his face (even unprovoked) should be a criminal offense for which someone should be arrested, until it crosses the line and becomes harassment. Harassing police by pursuing them in public space and verbally abusing them while completely unprovoked, however, is a lot different from what Gates did. Gates was initially confronted by the police on his own property, and responded by verbally abusing a police officer. It should be the job of the police when entering a potentially contentious situation to defuse the situation as quickly as possible and disengage without further confrontation as soon as it has been determined that no crime has been committed. If Gates had subsequently stalked the officer and abused him while he was on duty the next day, it would have crossed into harassment and warranted action.

It may well have been perfectly legal for Crowley to arrest Gates; he might have been well within his rights. But the police should always be sensitive to context, and use their authority when it is warranted, not when it is convenient.

[sweatdog]

Except "black" is a practical and unmistakable way to physically identify a suspect, where as "celtics fan" is certainly not, unless he is wearing a celtics jersey or jacket, in which case the witness would say he is wearing a green jacket with a celtics logo on it.

I see your point but it doesnt help your argument from what i can tell.

The officer did warn Gates to cease his disruptive behavior. Perhaps the conclusion of the incident was extreme in that Gates was put in cuffs, but it WAS within the officers authority. But why is everyone so quick to judge a disciplined and decorated officer? I myself am not in the military, nor am I a cop, related to any cops, or have any close friends who are cops. But I was taught to respect law enforcers.

[HighAboveCourtside]

Did you read the police report or Gates description of the events?

Did you read the officer's allegations? Or are you blindly believing Gates and Barry (who has no clue about any of the details, except that this happened to his brother).

The police came to the door and asked Gates to step outside he refused and identified himself as the tenant of the home and Harvard professor. At that point the officer questioned the validity of that to a point that offended the professor. He provided the credentials and attempted to contact the chief of police.

Oh, I'm so sorry that an officer of the law questioned a man breaking into a house (whether it is his own or not). Yes, he should have asked "Are you the resident" "Yup" "Ok, thanks a lot. Moving on." You are seriously daft if you believe this is the correct form of action.

At that point you say "sorry about the mix up Doc just doing our job." If he can't handle it then give him your name and badge number and leave.

Why couldn't Gates say "sorry about the mix up, I realize you're just doing your job"? Especially after his home has already been robbed before, so he knows it's possible. Why isn't the onus on him???

The race card was played by a woman who could neither believe or even stop to ask whether the two African American gentlemen working on the stuck front door in broad daylight lived there or were robbing the place.

Yeah, the race card was played by a woman who knows the home had been burglarized before and perhaps was trying to do this person of color a favor? I hope your home gets robbed and nobody calls the cops, because "hey, it could be the rightful owner. What do I know?"

The race card was played by a cop who could not perceive that perhaps a an older black man may actually be a Harvard professor and in his own home. Nor accept that he might be a little indignant about the fact that he was assumed to be robbing his own home because of his race.

Yeah, this cop who teaches a class about racial profiling and who tried to resuscitate a black Reggie Lewis is playing a race card. That makes a lot of sense. Isn't it more sensible to see that Gates is the only one playing the race card here? All to drum up more interest in his next book.

You make a hell of a lot of assumptions here, for someone who is so "knowledgeable" about this case. After all, you just accused a concerned neighbor and a decorated police officer of racism. But Gates is completely 100% in the right here.

[I love heinsohn]

If you think individuals of the branch of the government whos job is to protect and serve doesnt deserve basic human respect when hes doing his job, then you will have problems in your life.

Too many cops die each year because they THOUGHT a situation was diffused or they let down their guard. If Gates had cooperated then the cop would have left in an appropriate fashion. If he didnt, THEN Gates had some reason to fly off the handle and pull the race card. Im glad to hear the cop didnt hold Gates hand and coddle him like a child, or raise him up on a platform because of his spiffy Harvard ID. At a possible crime scene why not GTFO of the cops way and let him do his job.

Gates is the civilian, yet he did not behave in a *civil* manner, i.e. to adhere to the norms of polite social intercourse.

I see it this way - kudos to the officers for making an example of a man who thought he could act out of line and get away with it. Any apologies issued from the Cambridge police side are simply to back out of a suddenly racially charged **** storm, and not an admission of guilt.

According to Forbes (not exactly a liberal propaganda rag), 143 PEACE OFFICERS died on the job in 2007. Apparently about half of these were traffic incidents (not in pursuit of a suspect). Policing is a dangerous job, but cops need to recognize that their job is to protect and SERVE. And yet many cops act far worse than any other profession requiring a modicum of interaction with the public (also known as "customer service"). It is not a crime to yell at someone in your own damn house. Charges were never going to stick, which means this never should have led to an arrest in the first place.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/danger ... anger.html

[Joyeuse]

And people please... Gates was not simply being disrespectful... you dont jerk around a cop whos trying to do his job, they are conditioned to expect danger first, both through their officer training and the stories they hear and experiences on the job. You think cops have never died in B&E scenarios? Cops have died in ******* parking ticket scenarios.

Anyone on the street could be a mugger or rapist, but I don't go around preemptively neutralizing the threat. I'd get booked for assault if I tried.

I realize the police have dangerous jobs, and I realize they are afraid during confrontations with people. And yes, that is why we should be polite with the police and cooperate with them with as little difficulty as possible, in order to avoid confrontations like these where things get out of hand. But that doesn't give the police infinite leeway in confrontations either.

[HighAboveCourtside]

Conversely, if a police officer knocked on your door and asked you to step outside and you asked why and he said because we got a call that a two Celtics fan were robbing the house and obviously a Celtics fan couldn't own a house on the Cape so put your hands against the wall and spread 'em.

The cop said "you can't be the rightful owner of this house because you're black"? Is that in the police report?? Please provide a link, I would love to see that.

[sully00]

Except "black" is a practical and unmistakable way to physically identify a suspect, where as "celtics fan" is certainly not, unless he is wearing a celtics jersey or jacket, in which case the witness would say he is wearing a green jacket with a celtics logo on it.

I see your point but it doesnt help your argument from what i can tell.

At least my argument was specific to the situation. Your point about pursuing a police man in public and bereating him is not related to what happened here.

Again the real issue as far as racism goes has nothing to do with Crowley or Gates. It is Crime Dog McGruff who identified a 58 year old black man in a red satin polo, and his black car driver in a suit working on a stuck front door as two black guys with back packs on forcing their way into a house.

If you want to police the neighborhood get to know your neighbors for crying out loud.

Take the "black" out of it and how does 58 year old well dressed man with glasses in Cambridge, identifying himself as a Harvard professor, fit as a description of house robber?

[aboubata]

Anyone defending Gates in here is either
1. Never had to deal with similar situation. I had seen white people treated the same way for similar reasons.
2. Thinks just because Gates is black the officer should have been nice to him. Well that doesn't fly.

Let me tell you what the officer could be assuming
-- Gates wife (or a family member) could have locked herself in the house b/c he was threatening her. Gates had to brake in. She could be anywhere in the house
-- Gates could be making it look like he was robbed for an insurance claim
-- Harvard University fired Gates and kicked him out, he was B&E
-- Gates could be in a mental state that he needed help and shouldn't be left alone

-- Gates is distracting the officer while the other black gang escape from his (did I just assume b/c he is black he might know some criminals)

Please, let it rest. Similar thing happened to me and I actually stopped and listened to the officer b/c he life could be in danger at any time. Wasn't Gates driver standing behind him? 2 on 1 isn't fair at all, and being outside could have been the safest place for the officer. Plus, the officer didn't force Gates to go outside.

Black, white, asian, indian, arab, ... I don't see the officer behaving any differently.

[Cyclical]

I'm a liberal - affirmative action supporter and all - and I admit there's a good chance the professor may have been out of line. Perhaps the fact that he was teaching a racial profiling class hurt him - looking for it rather than evaluating the situation as a calm adult. On the other hand, the officer should have probably swallowed a little pride and realized it's extremely humiliating for this middle aged black man with a cane to be harassed in his own house - give him a badge number (something every officer is obliged to do) and go on your marry way.

Really, no one knows what happened there that day except those two. I'm a huge Obama supporter but he was way out of line saying the police acted stupidly in a speech to the nation. Even if he thinks that it should not be said - there are enough media a-holes out there that can run with a statement like that and fill hours of nonsense propaganda tv with it. Time to let it go. And that means the professor too.

[HighAboveCourtside]

Take the "black" out of it and how does 58 year old well dressed man with glasses in Cambridge, identifying himself as a Harvard professor, fit as a description of house robber?

This is the reason why old ladies are occasionally searched at the airport, even though they don't "look" like terrorists. You never know. But I bet they just accept it's for their general safety and don't scream prejudice. Do you live in Disney World? Or Pleasantville?