Tatum and Brown, as 1-2 Options

[peachbucket]

Also, when we don’t execute the proper play (as in the opposing team stops it) usually with 5-8 seconds left is not enough time to run another play on the fly.

So the ball gets dumped to Tatum and the team fully expects him to ISO as they believe he is the most capable on the team to do it.

Give it time, he’ll get there it’s a part of his growth.

Yeah, I haven't said it in this thread. But I have in a good number of game threads especially after another Tatum 2/13 kind of games and I just want it known, this is fully apart of Tatum's growth. Smart sucked on offense till his 4th year, Brown is breaking out in his 4th year.

On the team currently Kemba is the only player that is good at ISO hero ball.

But besides Kemba only Tatum is able to actually DO it.

Jaylen may be shooting from 40% from 3, but the type of 3s Tatum takes besides Kemba (and if Hayward was healthy him too) Tatum is the only one capable of DOING a step back 3 and making it with consistency.

I want Tatum to keep on doing him, he just sucks at it atm. This is a growing phase he has to work through. And with repetition it may get to the point he changes nothing but the shots start falling. With the years going on maybe he gets better at pushing off on his drives, maybe he decides to go to full floater mode on drives and starts converting.

But to the eye test, in game it's clear. Brown is maximizing who he is this year, but Tatum's ball handling and separation moves and prolific 3 point shooting gives him a much higher ceiling. And it's okay at 21 to still be figuring it out. He just needs one goto unstopable driving move and that will open up everything for him, the equivelent of when Hayward was healthy this year drive, stop, spin Dirkish fade away leaving his man at least 2 people away from him jumper.


I'd also love if we made it more of a focus on our offense to try to get Tatum on the block whenever he has a size advantage against his man. I've been loving the last 5 games we've been seeing it more, but ever since he was a rookie when Tatum has a PG or SG that isn't that big and he plays in the post he almost always converts or gets a foul. That literatlly may be the most money shot he has in in his game right now

Exactly. Tatum is currently being groomed to be a no conscience primary scoring option and late game hero ball specialist. He is being encouraged to take all these extremely difficult moves/shots as part of his arsenal. He is one of only a handful of young guys in the league with the Hardenesque iso potential against ANY defender...which is very rare and valuable especially in the playoffs.

I used to cringe at his 3/15 nights till I realized this is all by design and not because he is selfish and has a low bball iq....now I realize it's part of the bigger picture and will pay dividends in the future when the games actually mean something.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Those numbers have nothing to do with shot selection, it shows the kind of flow they play in though on the average possession.

Tatum does ISO more but it's not a super high %. He ISOs 13% of his possessions which is 20th most in the NBA and equates to about 2.5 FGAs a game for him. Brown ISOs at a 6% frequency which leads to about 1 FGA a game.

When it comes to where they shoot from, 60% of Tatum's shots come from the 3 or at the rim. For Brown 63% of his shots come from the 3 or at the rim.

When it comes to this
"So it takes Tatum just as long to decide to jack up a contested or off the dribble fall away as it takes Brown to pass if he's not open or shot if he is open?"

The passing stats actually show Tatum is more likely to pass than Brown. Tatum has a higher pass per touch rate than Brown.

Tatum:
68 touches a game
44 passed per game
(64% of touches end up with a pass)

Brown:
48 touches per game
29 passes per game
(60% of touches end up with a pass)

Yeah shot selection is tough to show with stats. I guess contested shot rate is a stat that would give some number to it. But it also is how often Tatum drives in traffic or simply loses the ball driving compare to Brown. Who has somehow this year developed a lethal driving game where he no longer gets blocked, has a floater he can go to, and seems to get to the rim and finish at a high rate. While Tatum's drive game looks worse than rookie year.

One question I have, and I'm sorry for putting the burden on you I really appreciate these fantastic break downs you do, When you say Tatum has the ISO at the 20th most rate in the NBA. Do you mean out of EVERYONE in the NBA Tatum chooses to ISO on his possession the 20th most in the league?

For someone with the what was it the absolute dead last efficiency rate in ISOs last year that's an astoundingly fatal flaw. At 6%, somewhere less than half of Tatum's rate, I suspect Brown is way down there in an acceptable position.

To be fair, again, Tatum is young but one would hope he'd just play to his strengths better. He's shooting his career worst in TS% this season, for someone going into their 3rd year and who had what is considered a horrific sophomore year... it's shocking he's getting even worse. 42% fg and 36% 3 is borderline chucking stats. (I love the amount of 3s he's taking, that's a nice change).

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

Want to emphasize the bolded. He’s shooting 56.7% at the rim and 29.7% from the corner 3. Entering this season, he averaged 65.4% at the rim and 42.9% from the corner. This will normalize.

Hell, this month Tatum is averaging 22-7-4 on 55.5% TS, its already starting to normalize.

[sam_I_am]

I guess my point in regards to tanking is that here the Celtics are with Smart, Brown, Tatum Langford as a young core, supplemented by 2 all star veterans and some young promising assets. In addition there is a great chance to add another high lottery pick from Memphis. That is a great place to be.

To be clear, I agree with this. I think tanking can be an appropriate way to build a team, but I'm very happy with where we are without much tanking.

Sliding doors moment -- what if we never had the Brooklyn trade and no one wanted to trade for aging Pierce/KG, I wonder how Ainge would've went about rebuilding the team.

Major part of the success of our current rebuild is because we outsourced our tank and didn't necessitate tanking ourselves.

If the Celtics hadn’t already outsourced the tank .... then eventually becoming a perennial lottery team was going to happen. However, since the team had 4 lottery picks coming the argument was over whether it was better to build a winning culture rather than tank to get additional lottery picks.

[TommyPointGawd]

Jaylen won 3rd option player of the week.

[zoyathedestroya]

Something JT and JB could work/drill on -- keeping their dribble while getting held, hacked, and bumped. If they were bothered by the Raptors increased ball pressure and lack of whistle, it's only going to get worse in the playoffs.

[Feed Your Head]

Something JT and JB could work/drill on -- keeping their dribble while getting held, hacked, and bumped. If they were bothered by the Raptors increased ball pressure and lack of whistle, it's only going to get worse in the playoffs.

Jaylen is really good at straight line drives, but he loses control of the ball almost any time he changes direction when going to the hoop if there's any contact.

Tatum struggles with straight line drives if he gets bumped, which he does constantly because defenses know this. But he's really good at change of direction drives, it's weird.

[Tatumfor2]

I love Brown and see no reason to put a cap on what he can become. As for Tatum, I fully expect his strength to improve and then the sky's the limit. I'm guessing we see more of the benefits from this next year. Whatever we pull off this year is gravy!

[zoyathedestroya]

Something JT and JB could work/drill on -- keeping their dribble while getting held, hacked, and bumped. If they were bothered by the Raptors increased ball pressure and lack of whistle, it's only going to get worse in the playoffs.

Jaylen is really good at straight line drives, but he loses control of the ball almost any time he changes direction when going to the hoop if there's any contact.

Tatum struggles with straight line drives if he gets bumped, which he does constantly because defenses know this. But he's really good at change of direction drives, it's weird.

The smart defenders know that if they get beat by Jaylen on the dribble, they can just poke the ball from behind. Tatum loses the ball on drives at the slightest of hacks. He puts the ball in front of him, Harden-style, but isn't strong enough to absorb the contact and follow through with his shot.

Improvement from both -- they're learning to stop their dribble and pass the ball out when there's no shot. They're forcing it less now. That's growth.

[keevsnick1]

Something JT and JB could work/drill on -- keeping their dribble while getting held, hacked, and bumped. If they were bothered by the Raptors increased ball pressure and lack of whistle, it's only going to get worse in the playoffs.

Jaylen is really good at straight line drives, but he loses control of the ball almost any time he changes direction when going to the hoop if there's any contact.

Tatum struggles with straight line drives if he gets bumped, which he does constantly because defenses know this. But he's really good at change of direction drives, it's weird.

I haven't seen this at all. If anything I've been very impressed with his ability to change direction and feel he handles contact VERY well. That hesitation crossover against the Spurs, or bumping Bam Adebayo right off his spot on the drive against Miami both come to mind as examples. He has only 18 lost ball turnovers all year, thats about .66 per game. Given that he's taking almost half his shots in the paint (0-10 feet) that seems pretty low to me.

[keevsnick1]

Yeah shot selection is tough to show with stats. I guess contested shot rate is a stat that would give some number to it. But it also is how often Tatum drives in traffic or simply loses the ball driving compare to Brown. Who has somehow this year developed a lethal driving game where he no longer gets blocked, has a floater he can go to, and seems to get to the rim and finish at a high rate. While Tatum's drive game looks worse than rookie year.

One question I have, and I'm sorry for putting the burden on you I really appreciate these fantastic break downs you do, When you say Tatum has the ISO at the 20th most rate in the NBA. Do you mean out of EVERYONE in the NBA Tatum chooses to ISO on his possession the 20th most in the league?

For someone with the what was it the absolute dead last efficiency rate in ISOs last year that's an astoundingly fatal flaw. At 6%, somewhere less than half of Tatum's rate, I suspect Brown is way down there in an acceptable position.

To be fair, again, Tatum is young but one would hope he'd just play to his strengths better. He's shooting his career worst in TS% this season, for someone going into their 3rd year and who had what is considered a horrific sophomore year... it's shocking he's getting even worse. 42% fg and 36% 3 is borderline chucking stats. (I love the amount of 3s he's taking, that's a nice change).

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

Want to emphasize the bolded. He’s shooting 56.7% at the rim and 29.7% from the corner 3. Entering this season, he averaged 65.4% at the rim and 42.9% from the corner. This will normalize.

Hell, this month Tatum is averaging 22-7-4 on 55.5% TS, its already starting to normalize.

The corner three stuff is weird to me, although I suspect as you point out that its just small sample noise. Only 18% of his shots have been corner threes, down from 27% last year. Although he also only shot 34% on corner threes last year after an amazing rookie year over 50% so who knows.

The lower percentages in general don't surprise me, people always make the mistake of expecting BOTH efficiency and volume too increase and being disappointed if both dont. But thats really hard to do, more shots equals generally taking more difficult shots. If Tatum goes the rest of the year with average TS% on the volume he takes thats a big win, going forward as his skill increase I expect efficiency will follow.

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

Doing it on and off the court.

[Slax]

Read on Twitter

Doing it on and off the court.

You know, it's nice that so many NBA players give back to the community. I feel like as a whole, they tend to get a bum rap as dumb jock party animals, but a lot of them assume the mantle of being good role models and dedicate a significant amount of what little spare time they have outside of work to charity events. Glad to see Brown get some recognition for it.

[5InOfLouisville]

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

Want to emphasize the bolded. He’s shooting 56.7% at the rim and 29.7% from the corner 3. Entering this season, he averaged 65.4% at the rim and 42.9% from the corner. This will normalize.

Hell, this month Tatum is averaging 22-7-4 on 55.5% TS, its already starting to normalize.

The corner three stuff is weird to me, although I suspect as you point out that its just small sample noise. Only 18% of his shots have been corner threes, down from 27% last year. Although he also only shot 34% on corner threes last year after an amazing rookie year over 50% so who knows.

The lower percentages in general don't surprise me, people always make the mistake of expecting BOTH efficiency and volume too increase and being disappointed if both dont. But thats really hard to do, more shots equals generally taking more difficult shots. If Tatum goes the rest of the year with average TS% on the volume he takes thats a big win, going forward as his skill increase I expect efficiency will follow.

Id guess jt’s corner 3s are down because he is initiating more offense. They are getting him the ball in places with more room to work so he can do his thing.

The corner is a great place to receive an open look resulting from good ball movement, but you have much less room to operate. A lot of good shooters and 3rd/4th options have the roll of standing in the corner and waiting/hoping for open looks. Jb has benefitted from this more often from being in this position this year, which helps contribute to his ridiculous efficiency

[Darth Celtic]

Tatum/Brown are the best young wing duo in the league BY FAR.

Nets won the trade, they ended up with Kyrie and KD.... so the nets fans tell me.

[5InOfLouisville]

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

Want to emphasize the bolded. He’s shooting 56.7% at the rim and 29.7% from the corner 3. Entering this season, he averaged 65.4% at the rim and 42.9% from the corner. This will normalize.

Hell, this month Tatum is averaging 22-7-4 on 55.5% TS, its already starting to normalize.

The corner three stuff is weird to me, although I suspect as you point out that its just small sample noise. Only 18% of his shots have been corner threes, down from 27% last year. Although he also only shot 34% on corner threes last year after an amazing rookie year over 50% so who knows.

The lower percentages in general don't surprise me, people always make the mistake of expecting BOTH efficiency and volume too increase and being disappointed if both dont. But thats really hard to do, more shots equals generally taking more difficult shots. If Tatum goes the rest of the year with average TS% on the volume he takes thats a big win, going forward as his skill increase I expect efficiency will follow.

Pure guesswork, but i wonder if jt’s corner 3s are down because he is initiating more offense. They are getting him the ball in places with more room to work so he can do his thing.

The corner is a great place to receive an open look resulting from good ball movement, but you have much less room to operate. A lot of good shooters and 3rd/4th options have the roll of standing in the corner and waiting/hoping for open looks. Jb has benefitted from this more often from being in this position this year, which helps contribute to his ridiculous efficiency

[VeryMuchWoke]

Tatum is in the 75th percentile in isolation efficiency this year (I stole than from Duke4life as well lol), he's been quite good this year when he goes ISO.

He's been missing way more open shots than he has in the past, at least it seems that way. It's so very close to all coming together for him offensively, and when it does, it will be beautiful.

Want to emphasize the bolded. He’s shooting 56.7% at the rim and 29.7% from the corner 3. Entering this season, he averaged 65.4% at the rim and 42.9% from the corner. This will normalize.

Hell, this month Tatum is averaging 22-7-4 on 55.5% TS, its already starting to normalize.

The corner three stuff is weird to me, although I suspect as you point out that its just small sample noise. Only 18% of his shots have been corner threes, down from 27% last year. Although he also only shot 34% on corner threes last year after an amazing rookie year over 50% so who knows.

The lower percentages in general don't surprise me, people always make the mistake of expecting BOTH efficiency and volume too increase and being disappointed if both dont. But thats really hard to do, more shots equals generally taking more difficult shots. If Tatum goes the rest of the year with average TS% on the volume he takes thats a big win, going forward as his skill increase I expect efficiency will follow.

Corner 3s are usually what's left for the non-creators on the floor after the 2-3 creators run something in the middle of the floor. Tatum role for most of year 1 was to hang around the perimeter and stick open shots, and in year two everyone's job was basically to watch Kyrie go to work and hit open shots (or set picks for him), so the decrease in volume makes sense to me.

Given that he shot 50% in year one, and 34% in year, and 30% for 1/3 of year 3 from the corners and he's a career 39% 3 point shooter, he's probably going to settle somewhere between 40% and 45% from the corners.

[LuckyLeprechaun]

Tatum/Brown are the best young wing duo in the league BY FAR.

Nets won the trade, they ended up with Kyrie and KD.... so the nets fans tell me.

19-20 season: KD misses the year and Kyrie misses half(?) the year. Nets have a better record in games Kyrie misses. Get bounced in the 1st round.

20-21 season: KD returns but is not himself as these injuries usually take a year of playing to recover from. Nets win 45-50 games, well shy of the top seed projections in the media and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round after Kyrie ball hogs.

21-22 season: After an offseason of harsh criticism from the NY media, Kyrie and KD start throwing each other under the bus along with everyone else in the organization. Kyrie regularly posts "woke" messages on social media about basketball being just a game etc. KD uses his 37 burner accounts to defend himself every day. Nets barely sneak into the playoffs and get swept by the 1 seed Celtics. KD and Kyrie get traded for 10 cents on the dollar and Nets consider a full tank.

2022-2025: Nets fail to secure a top 5 pick, winning around 35 games each season on scrappy hustle.

25 offseason: Nets give up on tanking and decide to win now. They trade 3 unprotected 1st and 2 pick swaps for 35 year old Kemba Walker, 33 year old Enes Kanter, and 36 year old Gordon Hayward.

[exculpatory]

Tatum/Brown are the best young wing duo in the league BY FAR.

Nets won the trade, they ended up with Kyrie and KD.... so the nets fans tell me.

19-20 season: KD misses the year and Kyrie misses half(?) the year. Nets have a better record in games Kyrie misses. Get bounced in the 1st round.

20-21 season: KD returns but is not himself as these injuries usually take a year of playing to recover from. Nets win 45-50 games, well shy of the top seed projections in the media and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round after Kyrie ball hogs.

21-22 season: After an offseason of harsh criticism from the NY media, Kyrie and KD start throwing each other under the bus along with everyone else in the organization. Kyrie regularly posts "woke" messages on social media about basketball being just a game etc. KD uses his 37 burner accounts to defend himself every day. Nets barely sneak into the playoffs and get swept by the 1 seed Celtics. KD and Kyrie get traded for 10 cents on the dollar and Nets consider a full tank.

2022-2025: Nets fail to secure a top 5 pick, winning around 35 games each season on scrappy hustle.

25 offseason: Nets give up on tanking and decide to win now. They trade 3 unprotected 1st and 2 pick swaps for 35 year old Kemba Walker, 33 year old Enes Kanter, and 36 year old Gordon Hayward.

Nice.

LOL

[VeryMuchWoke]

Tatum/Brown are the best young wing duo in the league BY FAR.

Nets won the trade, they ended up with Kyrie and KD.... so the nets fans tell me.

19-20 season: KD misses the year and Kyrie misses half(?) the year. Nets have a better record in games Kyrie misses. Get bounced in the 1st round.

20-21 season: KD returns but is not himself as these injuries usually take a year of playing to recover from. Nets win 45-50 games, well shy of the top seed projections in the media and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round after Kyrie ball hogs.

21-22 season: After an offseason of harsh criticism from the NY media, Kyrie and KD start throwing each other under the bus along with everyone else in the organization. Kyrie regularly posts "woke" messages on social media about basketball being just a game etc. KD uses his 37 burner accounts to defend himself every day. Nets barely sneak into the playoffs and get swept by the 1 seed Celtics. KD and Kyrie get traded for 10 cents on the dollar and Nets consider a full tank.

2022-2025: Nets fail to secure a top 5 pick, winning around 35 games each season on scrappy hustle.

25 offseason: Nets give up on tanking and decide to win now. They trade 3 unprotected 1st and 2 pick swaps for 35 year old Kemba Walker, 33 year old Enes Kanter, and 36 year old Gordon Hayward.

It's doubtful KD ever is himself again. He'll probably be a 2nd team All-NBA guy, but not worth anything near what they're paying him per year when you factor in this year and some of what they gave Deandre.

[jmr07019]

Dunc'd on podcast put out a new episode today where they ranked the top prospects 23 and under. List was supposed to be top 10 but both guys went over as they felt the players within tier 4 were too close to separate. 2 guys, Nate and Danny, each made separate lists. They were as follows

Nate:
1. Luka - only Tier 1 guy
2. Zion - only Tier 2 guy
3. Trae - start of tier 3
4. Jah
5. Booker - start of tier 4
6. Mitchell
7. Brown
8. Adebayo
9. Ingram
10. Simmons
11. Tatum - end of tier 4

Danny:
1. Luka - only tier 1 guy
2. Zion - only tier 2 guy
3. Trae - start of tier 3
4. Booker
5. Mitchell
6. Tatum
7. Brown - end of tier 3
8. Bam - start tier 4
9. Jah
10. Simmons
11. Turner
12. Ingram
13. Isaac
14. Fox
15. Jaren Jackson - end tier 4

Other notes: Luka is already an MVP level guy. Zion is the only other one they project as having MVP potential. Trae Young could possibly have MVP potential. Nate LOVES Jah. Danny has a few more concerns. They were both concerned with Simmons lack of development. I was surprised he was so low on the list. They view Brown vs Tatum as very close. Interesting since the prevailing logic on this board is that Tatum has the higher ceiling.