Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

[jmr07019]

I agree on balancing the roster, but Griffin is too much of an immediate and injury-risk solution for a Celtics roster that otherwise probably isn't ripe anyway, given what the C's would likely be giving up.

Hayward is just as risky if not more so. At least Griffin can still produce. He was an all star last year. We don’t know if Hayward if will ever approach all star level of play again.

Hayward can opt out after a year, but I really see no reason to expect Hayward won't be pretty much back to his old level at least by late next season. He's right on track.

We disagree about Hayward. Last year was a catastrophe. We are 2 years past the injury and the time table for his recovery is still being pushed in the wrong direction.

[sully00]

Chauncey's first step and jumper were always better than Smart's. He could lull you to sleep and then go right by you. Smart doesn't have the same gravity on the perimeter.

I think he's more like Jeremy Lin offensively as a primary point of attack - a big guard who can get you on his hip and ride you into the paint. Problem is Marcus doesn't have great touch for the kind of running contested below-the-rim finishes that style requires.

You're right that Marcus will never be all that much as a scorer, although we can hope that his accuracy on catch-and-shoot or even wide-open pull-up shots keeps going up. I see less of a ceiling, however, on his passing, which is part of why I want him to be our PG every minute Kemba isn't on the floor and some of the minutes when Kemba is.

I agree it would have been ugly, esp to start, but to me the point was to force that burden on Jays & Hay and make them develop. I don't think you ever need Smart to be a great scorer/creator. More just be the caretaker PG. If you're going 3 wings and a center, a good defensive point guard with some vision, who can run some p-n-r with the center, hit open shots is all you really need. By playing 3 wings, you're (hopefully) saying these guys are good enough offensively to overcome playing only 1 big defensively. So, in theory you shouldn't need an elite scoring PG as well.

If you went Smart as starter, draft a NAW type with secondary creation skills, sign a Cory Joseph type, etc. You get pieces in place to support the 3 wings, but leave the heavy lifting to them. And have cap space/money left to do other things. But, obviously that ship has sailed.

I am not saying it is even going to be ugly it might work out great and have allowed Tatum and Brown to blossom, it just seemed like too much risk. Walker is such a low risk option for Boston, as far age and durability. Boston now has so much riding on the Brown/Tatum direction that is just didn't make sense to risk it on some all or nothing play. That said if Boston could have gotten into the top 5 of the draft he may not have pursued Walker. We wait to see how this all plays out. Smart was really valuable next to Irving and maybe that continues with Walker in which case you would probably look to move Brown (or use Hayward off the bench).

[Slartibartfast]

m

I don’t like roberson. That guy’s shooting is horrible. I think brown can be as good defensively if he tried.

Roberson was the best perimeter defender the game has seen in the last 5 years. Brown could never be that level. Roberson is coming back injured though and he may never get back to that level.

Regardless, this trade was more for the others.

Umm Robertsons a plus defender, sure, but hes not a better perimeter defender than smart. Gallo is not a better player than Hayward and Steven Adams is a ten million dollar player being paid close to 30....

Gallo was a much better player than Hayward last season. The guy put up 20/6/3 on 63TS% in 30mpg. Had one of the best seasons nobody paid attention to.

That trade would be an upgrade in the short-term, health-permitting.

Still wouldn't want to do it, because I don't like trading Smart without getting a backcourt player in return. Brown/Tatum/Gallo/Roberson as a 2-4 rotation is way too forward heavy and ball-handling deficient. Adams doesn't bring much skill at the 5 either. A lot of OKC's old problems (lack of offensive creativity/diversity) recreated for us.

I also don't like trading Romeo.

[RickyDizzle]

Roberson was the best perimeter defender the game has seen in the last 5 years. Brown could never be that level. Roberson is coming back injured though and he may never get back to that level.

Regardless, this trade was more for the others.

Umm Robertsons a plus defender, sure, but hes not a better perimeter defender than smart. Gallo is not a better player than Hayward and Steven Adams is a ten million dollar player being paid close to 30....

Gallo was a much better player than Hayward last season. The guy put up 20/6/3 on 63TS% in 30mpg. Had one of the best seasons nobody paid attention to.

That trade would be an upgrade in the short-term, health-permitting.

Still wouldn't want to do it, because I don't like trading Smart without getting a backcourt player in return. Brown/Tatum/Gallo/Roberson as a 2-4 rotation is way too forward heavy and ball-handling deficient. Adams doesn't bring much skill at the 5 either. A lot of OKC's old problems (lack of offensive creativity/diversity) recreated for us.

I also don't like trading Romeo.

Gallo being better last year is true, but unlikely to repeat itself. Hayward, when healthy is a better playmaker, defender, rebounder, and athlete. Lets hope Gordon is closer to himself next year. If hes not better than Gallo then were in for another long season.

[ZeroTolerance]

no blake. surely you guys can get a bit more creative than finding bad maxs. next we will hear hayward for cp.

Do good max contracts actually exist?

Not a big fan of them....think they should limit them to perhaps two players per team?

And then they should reduce the cap as well!

Maybe then you wouldn't have to get a second mortgage on your house to take the family to an NBA game?

I take it you're not that familiar with the concept of supply and demand?

Guess not? I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth...I always had to work for everything I ever had.

NBA players have everything handed to them pretty much...And they are never satisfied even though they are largely paid more than the majority of professionals in any other sport...Plus they make even more money on endorsements that their counterparts in other sports are seldom offered...The TV money should be for the fan's benefit since they are the ones who pay their cable or dish fees... to keep the price of seats down...Not just given out to elete players like candy is given to a kid....

Just saying that they should have little to complain about money wise....but yet they are never satisfied it would seem...

But as long as the "me generation" continues to foolishly throw money at them.. They will surely keep taking what is offered...

[zimpy27]

Roberson was the best perimeter defender the game has seen in the last 5 years. Brown could never be that level. Roberson is coming back injured though and he may never get back to that level.

Regardless, this trade was more for the others.

Umm Robertsons a plus defender, sure, but hes not a better perimeter defender than smart. Gallo is not a better player than Hayward and Steven Adams is a ten million dollar player being paid close to 30....

Gallo was a much better player than Hayward last season. The guy put up 20/6/3 on 63TS% in 30mpg. Had one of the best seasons nobody paid attention to.

That trade would be an upgrade in the short-term, health-permitting.

Still wouldn't want to do it, because I don't like trading Smart without getting a backcourt player in return. Brown/Tatum/Gallo/Roberson as a 2-4 rotation is way too forward heavy and ball-handling deficient. Adams doesn't bring much skill at the 5 either. A lot of OKC's old problems (lack of offensive creativity/diversity) recreated for us.

I also don't like trading Romeo.

The trade works with Williams instead of Romeo.

Kemba | Wanamaker | Edwards
Brown | Langford
Tatum | Roberson
Gallo | Theis | Semi
Adams | Kanter | RW3

I think Kemba and Gallo together is enough ball handling. More concerned about the bench.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm more concerned about losing Smart. No way I'm giving him up for Adams.

[mbsnmisc]

Here is a truly crazy idea: Let's stand pat and make no deals. Let this group of guys play together and let Brad coach them.

All the guys we are talking about trading can get a lot better--Hayward (due to injury recovery), Smart, Brown, Langford, Memphis no. 1 pick. All the guys we are talking about getting have peaked or are close to peaking. None of these deals make us a champion, they at best keep us in very high mediocrity for years and prevent our having any additional moves.

Romeo Langford as a toss-in? To get Roberson? WTF? Langford might suck but he damned well could develop into a Joe Johnson. Right now no one has any idea. Why trade all the upside for guys who have plateaued and whose careers are are soon to be flat-lining?

Here is the cold truth: we are not winning the NBA title in 2020. Not happening, though we can all fantasize about it, as fans will do. The coming season is all about developing the young talent as much as possible, building cohesiveness, making the playoffs and kicking ass for as long as possible. It is 2017 or 2018 redux, except we have a lot more talented young guys to coach up and assess, and some truly exciting young veterans, like Brown and Tatum and Smart. By May of 2020 we will have a much much better idea of what these kids can do and what this team needs to win a title.

The chemistry on this team is pointed in the right direction. Let's sit back and relax, enjoy the games and come up for air in the spring. No need at all for a roster reshuffle right now, and we are not negotiating from strength.

This should be the first post at the top of each new page for the rest of this season.

[sam_I_am]

You're right that Marcus will never be all that much as a scorer, although we can hope that his accuracy on catch-and-shoot or even wide-open pull-up shots keeps going up. I see less of a ceiling, however, on his passing, which is part of why I want him to be our PG every minute Kemba isn't on the floor and some of the minutes when Kemba is.

I agree it would have been ugly, esp to start, but to me the point was to force that burden on Jays & Hay and make them develop. I don't think you ever need Smart to be a great scorer/creator. More just be the caretaker PG. If you're going 3 wings and a center, a good defensive point guard with some vision, who can run some p-n-r with the center, hit open shots is all you really need. By playing 3 wings, you're (hopefully) saying these guys are good enough offensively to overcome playing only 1 big defensively. So, in theory you shouldn't need an elite scoring PG as well.

If you went Smart as starter, draft a NAW type with secondary creation skills, sign a Cory Joseph type, etc. You get pieces in place to support the 3 wings, but leave the heavy lifting to them. And have cap space/money left to do other things. But, obviously that ship has sailed.

I am not saying it is even going to be ugly it might work out great and have allowed Tatum and Brown to blossom, it just seemed like too much risk. Walker is such a low risk option for Boston, as far age and durability. Boston now has so much riding on the Brown/Tatum direction that is just didn't make sense to risk it on some all or nothing play. That said if Boston could have gotten into the top 5 of the draft he may not have pursued Walker. We wait to see how this all plays out. Smart was really valuable next to Irving and maybe that continues with Walker in which case you would probably look to move Brown (or use Hayward off the bench).

Just curious why you think team wanted top 5 pick over Walker. It seems to me once team knew Walker would come they dropped idea of trading up for Garland. I think Vukovic/Garland was Plan B.

[CelticFaninLBC]

If Hayward's unhappy in Boston, then Hayward, Langford, R. Williams and Ojeleye works for Gallo & Adams. Just have to wait until Sept. to acquire Gallo, I think.

[ZeroTolerance]

i want to revisit the rumor about the Celtics and the Magic having conversations...

Back a couple of pages ago I mentioned this "silly season" play:

"Maybe the play with Orlando was about getting Aaron Gordon?.... With Fornier....that probably works with us sending out Brown and Hayward?... If we got Bomba in the deal....I don't know?... That might be a decent trade?...Gordon and Tatum are almost the same player though?..But maybe two heads are better than one?... and maybe Fornier can do for us what Haywood does?... He's always been a pain in our side.. that's for sure?

Gordon is younger and more reasonable than Blake (Griffin)...

If we added Ojele to the deal.... That swap works....Bet Orlando would want a pick too though?... They would be gambling on Issac replacing Gordon...Doubt that Danny would agree to that though it's an interesting angle....Fornier can play...'

The more I think of this angle, the better I like it....

We send Orlando Brown, Hayward and Ojele...A future pic?
We get back Araon Gordon, Fornier, and Bamaba...

Anyone else have an opinion on that possible trade scenario?

[Ernest]

I'm more concerned about losing Smart. No way I'm giving him up for Adams.

Agreed. Let's see what the new guys can do. New guys aside, Smart played better last year than any other player who is coming back. To say he is our best player is not crazy. Walker should beat him out, but we haven't seen him play for us yet. Tatum should too very soon, but he hasn't so far. Brown as well.

Can we just have a captain this year? And can it be Smart? Seems like not having one last year didn't work so well. Walker might be the best player. Hayward could be it too. Would anyone be pissed if Smart was captain? (By "anyone" I mean players not you guys)

[ZeroTolerance]

I'm more concerned about losing Smart. No way I'm giving him up for Adams.

Agreed. Let's see what the new guys can do. New guys aside, Smart played better last year than any other player who is coming back. To say he is our best player is not crazy. Walker should beat him out, but we haven't seen him play for us yet. Tatum should too very soon, but he hasn't so far. Brown as well.

Can we just have a captain this year? And can it be Smart? Seems like not having one last year didn't work so well. Walker might be the best player. Hayward could be it too. Would anyone be pissed if Smart was captain? (By "anyone" I mean players not you guys)

Agree with this too! not crazy about Adams at all...Prefer to keep the bull dog Smart

[sully00]

I agree it would have been ugly, esp to start, but to me the point was to force that burden on Jays & Hay and make them develop. I don't think you ever need Smart to be a great scorer/creator. More just be the caretaker PG. If you're going 3 wings and a center, a good defensive point guard with some vision, who can run some p-n-r with the center, hit open shots is all you really need. By playing 3 wings, you're (hopefully) saying these guys are good enough offensively to overcome playing only 1 big defensively. So, in theory you shouldn't need an elite scoring PG as well.

If you went Smart as starter, draft a NAW type with secondary creation skills, sign a Cory Joseph type, etc. You get pieces in place to support the 3 wings, but leave the heavy lifting to them. And have cap space/money left to do other things. But, obviously that ship has sailed.

I am not saying it is even going to be ugly it might work out great and have allowed Tatum and Brown to blossom, it just seemed like too much risk. Walker is such a low risk option for Boston, as far age and durability. Boston now has so much riding on the Brown/Tatum direction that is just didn't make sense to risk it on some all or nothing play. That said if Boston could have gotten into the top 5 of the draft he may not have pursued Walker. We wait to see how this all plays out. Smart was really valuable next to Irving and maybe that continues with Walker in which case you would probably look to move Brown (or use Hayward off the bench).

Just curious why you think team wanted top 5 pick over Walker. It seems to me once team knew Walker would come they dropped idea of trading up for Garland. I think Vukovic/Garland was Plan B.

I don't think it was a situation of one or the other. I think there was a price to be paid to signing Walker and that was likely losing both Baynes and Horford. There was a price to be paid to trade into the top 5/6 to get Garland or White. Once those guys were really going to command those types of picks it is kind of no brainer because Walker is a much better player that only costs you money.

[Ernest]

What about Drummond? If the Pistons melt down this year he could be getable. Lot of talk about Blake and a trade for him could be smart midseason, but what about Drummond? I have no thought on it either way, just curious.

[TheOGJabroni]

What about Drummond? If the Pistons melt down this year he could be getable. Lot of talk about Blake and a trade for him could be smart midseason, but what about Drummond? I have no thought on it either way, just curious.

Wouldn't mind bringing him in as a player, but I think it would cost too much. It pretty much has to be Hayward outgoing or else it would have to be Smart, Brown & others to match salary which is already too much.

[Bill Lumbergh]

I thought I was going to get flagged when I suggested we take a flier on Dwight last week.

Can't believe how much worse we've regressed.

It's Zeller or bust around here. Banner 18, here we come!

[Bill Lumbergh]

Here is a truly crazy idea: Let's stand pat and make no deals. Let this group of guys play together and let Brad coach them.

All the guys we are talking about trading can get a lot better--Hayward (due to injury recovery), Smart, Brown, Langford, Memphis no. 1 pick. All the guys we are talking about getting have peaked or are close to peaking. None of these deals make us a champion, they at best keep us in very high mediocrity for years and prevent our having any additional moves.

Romeo Langford as a toss-in? To get Roberson? WTF? Langford might suck but he damned well could develop into a Joe Johnson. Right now no one has any idea. Why trade all the upside for guys who have plateaued and whose careers are are soon to be flat-lining?

Here is the cold truth: we are not winning the NBA title in 2020. Not happening, though we can all fantasize about it, as fans will do. The coming season is all about developing the young talent as much as possible, building cohesiveness, making the playoffs and kicking ass for as long as possible. It is 2017 or 2018 redux, except we have a lot more talented young guys to coach up and assess, and some truly exciting young veterans, like Brown and Tatum and Smart. By May of 2020 we will have a much much better idea of what these kids can do and what this team needs to win a title.

The chemistry on this team is pointed in the right direction. Let's sit back and relax, enjoy the games and come up for air in the spring. No need at all for a roster reshuffle right now, and we are not negotiating from strength.

This should be the first post at the top of each new page for the rest of this season.

I agree with allowing this to play out, and seeing what Brad can do without a toxic locker room (we already know). Reminds me of this:

Watch on YouTube

[Ernest]

What about Drummond? If the Pistons melt down this year he could be getable. Lot of talk about Blake and a trade for him could be smart midseason, but what about Drummond? I have no thought on it either way, just curious.

Wouldn't mind bringing him in as a player, but I think it would cost too much. It pretty much has to be Hayward outgoing or else it would have to be Smart, Brown & others to match salary which is already too much.

Yeah, that's our "problem" in a lot of cases. We have no dead weight contract. For Ainge's first decade here is seemed lie he was always rolling over bad contracts. By that I mean, always had a max or near max player that was about to expire. Theo, Raef, Wally exc. I guess it's a good spot to be in that now yo can argue everyone deserves what they are getting paid. But it makes it harder to dream about trades.

[canman1971]

Here is a truly crazy idea: Let's stand pat and make no deals. Let this group of guys play together and let Brad coach them.

All the guys we are talking about trading can get a lot better--Hayward (due to injury recovery), Smart, Brown, Langford, Memphis no. 1 pick. All the guys we are talking about getting have peaked or are close to peaking. None of these deals make us a champion, they at best keep us in very high mediocrity for years and prevent our having any additional moves.

Romeo Langford as a toss-in? To get Roberson? WTF? Langford might suck but he damned well could develop into a Joe Johnson. Right now no one has any idea. Why trade all the upside for guys who have plateaued and whose careers are are soon to be flat-lining?

Here is the cold truth: we are not winning the NBA title in 2020. Not happening, though we can all fantasize about it, as fans will do. The coming season is all about developing the young talent as much as possible, building cohesiveness, making the playoffs and kicking ass for as long as possible. It is 2017 or 2018 redux, except we have a lot more talented young guys to coach up and assess, and some truly exciting young veterans, like Brown and Tatum and Smart. By May of 2020 we will have a much much better idea of what these kids can do and what this team needs to win a title.

The chemistry on this team is pointed in the right direction. Let's sit back and relax, enjoy the games and come up for air in the spring. No need at all for a roster reshuffle right now, and we are not negotiating from strength.

This should be the first post at the top of each new page for the rest of this season.

I agree with allowing this to play out, and seeing what Brad can do without a toxic locker room (we already know). Reminds me of this:

Watch on YouTube

Very true and such a fantastic series. One of my favorites I have ever seen.