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The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many

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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#721 » by TheOGJabroni » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:26 pm

soxfan2003 wrote:If the Celtics are going to punt to next year, I think the team has to seriously consider trading players like IT and/or Bradley.

If the league doesn't value them highly, of course, keep them but if they can fetch good picks, I would strongly consider dealing them.

Sometimes its best to zig when everyone wants to zag.

I understand this sentiment to a degree but also remember, we probably don't keep our next pick; we most likely swap with BK so that actually strengthens BK if we have a rebuilding year. Just some food for thought.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#722 » by BigTrade92 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:28 pm

I'm getting the feeling more and more that this is going to be another off-season of sparklers instead of fireworks.

That being said, I still do think at least one major move will be made. Would not be surprised to see at least Kevin Love in Boston, but to me, that ship has sailed long ago.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#723 » by The_Ghost_of_JB » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:29 pm

Can the Celtics even afford to punt with 8 freaking picks?

Celtics don't make a move this year to get good player to me this whole "plan" Ainge had has been a carrot on a stick for the past few years. With 8 picks THIS is the year the Celtics have to make move.We can argue if this is is good or not but this will also push players like Sully, Turner, Johnson, Jerbebko and Zeller out the door.

What about Rozier, Mickey, Hunter and Young? How many more developmental projects can a team take on at once? Will the NBA allow the the Celtics to have an A & B team? Drafting 8 players (or how many he is forced to draft) is a huge step backward and will be an absolute nightmare outcome for Stevens.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#724 » by VeryMuchWoke » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:43 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
iTalkToTheLord wrote:I can see Love as a buy-low move, but Bradley and Crowder is too much, and you better have plans to put him next to a defensive monster up front. I'd take Crowder off the table in any Love talks. Bradley and a couple of non-premium firsts I could live with.


Let's not pretend that Kevin Love is Rondo coming off a devastating injury and half a season away from free agency.

AB + Crowder IS the buy-low package. We're talking about a guy that was traded for a #1 pick and more 2 seasons ago.


I don't think you realize how bad Kevin Love's defense is. Haralabob says Love would work with "3-4" other front-court players in the league, and I tend to agree. That means we need to follow it up with landing an absolute defensive monster to cover for his weaknesses. With that other player, Love would be great. Without that player, Crowder is the better 4. To top it off Crowder makes 13M less per year.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#725 » by Banks2Pierce » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:47 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
If that's not enough to put together a Durant-magnet, we should try a different approach.

Look at our bedfellows:



Durant's the only worthy guy and everyone has room for 1 player. Horford and Dwight aren't moving the needle for him, I'd guess. There is a lot of value next summer in having room for 2 maxes and a competitive team because the alpha class of free agents will be deeper, including the potential for Durant again. Think comparing 2016 FA to 2017 FA is apples and oranges. We also don't know what the hell will happen, but I'm guessing people will wheelbarrow money to these OK FAs and only have the 1 max room next summer. The trade thing hasn't happened yet and doesn't look close to breaking, but it has to eventually.

Charlotte, Miami, and Atlanta don't have the BKN picks and are much more susceptible to losing chunks of those 48 wins to FA. I know you will say that #3 can't even get Gordon freaking Hayward, but the #3 pick ultimately has a 33% chance of being an All Star and 2 more are incoming.

I just don't understand how trading IT AND Bradley is better than the flexibility approach. I get that we can get caught holding the bag in 2018 if they are both still here and expecting 20m contracts and maybe that's why I probably trade Bradley, but not both. Don't think it'd be that hard to get to 2 seed level while still having a handful of exciting prospects and cap flex. The more I think about it, the more a Bradley trade can satisfy multiple things. Room for young guys to play and maybe not even losing wins. IT is a different ballgame. He goes and we'll be cavemen on offense. Trading IT and getting Rubio somehow would perk my ears up, though.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#726 » by Slartibartfast » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:13 pm

iTalkToTheLord wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
iTalkToTheLord wrote:I can see Love as a buy-low move, but Bradley and Crowder is too much, and you better have plans to put him next to a defensive monster up front. I'd take Crowder off the table in any Love talks. Bradley and a couple of non-premium firsts I could live with.


Let's not pretend that Kevin Love is Rondo coming off a devastating injury and half a season away from free agency.

AB + Crowder IS the buy-low package. We're talking about a guy that was traded for a #1 pick and more 2 seasons ago.


I don't think you realize how bad Kevin Love's defense is. Haralabob says Love would work with "3-4" other front-court players in the league, and I tend to agree. That means we need to follow it up with landing an absolute defensive monster to cover for his weaknesses. With that other player, Love would be great. Without that player, Crowder is the better 4. To top it off Crowder makes 13M less per year.



The T-Wolves managed a 12th ranked defense with Pekovic of all people next to Love. Haralabob and the internet scouts get hot and bothered about pick and roll coverage and speed in team D, and they have very good points, but I think they get carried away with themselves on some of this.

I think there are more than 3-4 guys to pair with Love. Howard and Horford are two current free agents that would go very well with him. Noel a good trade target. Heck our own Amir Johnson would do pretty well with Love. Could make a decent case for Hassan Whiteside too.

And for all the talk of needing to pair a defensive monster to make Love work, it's even more true on the other side of the ball for AB and Crowder (and Smart). We have to start on of the worst offensive PGs in the league to make AB + Crowder viable offensively.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#727 » by bigfoot_cryptozoology » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:32 pm

Woj Semi-Bomb: No one's trading an All Star for the players in this draft...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/06/2016_nba_draft_rumors_boston_c_8.html

Boston and Phoenix, right until they make those picks at 7:45 or 7:50 Eastern (on draft night), they're going to be chasing veterans," Wojnarowski said recently on his podcast.

ESPN's Marc Stein reported Tuesday night that the Celtics have tried (and so far failed) to strike deals for Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Jabari Parker and Gordon Hayward. Wojnarowski thinks the Celtics and Suns, who hold the third and fourth picks, respectively, are "not getting All-Stars for those picks."

"Neither wants to draft a player there," Wojnarowski said. "They want to trade those picks to get a very good (player). I think they'd ideally like to get an All-Star. They're not getting All-Stars for those picks. Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, players that those teams are calling on -- they are not available, they're not getting (traded) for a pick in this draft. I'm not sure that those kind of players you (could trade pick No.) 1 or 2 for an All-Star player. I'm not sure anyone's that sold on (Brandon) Ingram or (Ben) Simmons that they would trade an established All-Star now, or a budding All-Star."
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#728 » by The_Ghost_of_JB » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:45 pm

bigfoot_cryptozoology wrote:Woj Semi-Bomb: No one's trading an All Star for the players in this draft...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/06/2016_nba_draft_rumors_boston_c_8.html

Boston and Phoenix, right until they make those picks at 7:45 or 7:50 Eastern (on draft night), they're going to be chasing veterans," Wojnarowski said recently on his podcast.

ESPN's Marc Stein reported Tuesday night that the Celtics have tried (and so far failed) to strike deals for Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Jabari Parker and Gordon Hayward. Wojnarowski thinks the Celtics and Suns, who hold the third and fourth picks, respectively, are "not getting All-Stars for those picks."

"Neither wants to draft a player there," Wojnarowski said. "They want to trade those picks to get a very good (player). I think they'd ideally like to get an All-Star. They're not getting All-Stars for those picks. Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, players that those teams are calling on -- they are not available, they're not getting (traded) for a pick in this draft. I'm not sure that those kind of players you (could trade pick No.) 1 or 2 for an All-Star player. I'm not sure anyone's that sold on (Brandon) Ingram or (Ben) Simmons that they would trade an established All-Star now, or a budding All-Star."


I have been saying this since day 1. Butler, Cousins, Love, George will not be had for the 3rd freaking pick. Celtics are stuck with most of these picks and when the clock rolls around Celtics are making the 3rd pick for themselves.

I guarantee when Ainge is interviewed after the draft he will look like he just came back from a funeral.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#729 » by DK-All Day » Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:53 pm

Just our luck that we got 3rd pick in a two player draft...just our luck. The Celtics will never catch a break lol.

Oh well, Welcome to Boston, Kris Dunn.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#730 » by Darth Celtic » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:03 pm

He also says nobody would trade an all star for 1-2nd pick either. Nobody in this draft straight up will get you an all star. Like i posted before, you need both players in the draft projected to be future star (there will be stars from this draft, but no sure fire hits) and an all star in a rebuild and sell situation. This season there are none of these.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#731 » by Slartibartfast » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:07 pm

Banks2Pierce wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
If that's not enough to put together a Durant-magnet, we should try a different approach.

Look at our bedfellows:



Durant's the only worthy guy and everyone has room for 1 player. Horford and Dwight aren't moving the needle for him, I'd guess. There is a lot of value next summer in having room for 2 maxes and a competitive team because the alpha class of free agents will be deeper, including the potential for Durant again. Think comparing 2016 FA to 2017 FA is apples and oranges. We also don't know what the hell will happen, but I'm guessing people will wheelbarrow money to these OK FAs and only have the 1 max room next summer. The trade thing hasn't happened yet and doesn't look close to breaking, but it has to eventually.

Charlotte, Miami, and Atlanta don't have the BKN picks and are much more susceptible to losing chunks of those 48 wins to FA. I know you will say that #3 can't even get Gordon freaking Hayward, but the #3 pick ultimately has a 33% chance of being an All Star and 2 more are incoming.

I just don't understand how trading IT AND Bradley is better than the flexibility approach. I get that we can get caught holding the bag in 2018 if they are both still here and expecting 20m contracts and maybe that's why I probably trade Bradley, but not both. Don't think it'd be that hard to get to 2 seed level while still having a handful of exciting prospects and cap flex. The more I think about it, the more a Bradley trade can satisfy multiple things. Room for young guys to play and maybe not even losing wins. IT is a different ballgame. He goes and we'll be cavemen on offense. Trading IT and getting Rubio somehow would perk my ears up, though.


IT is the one that makes the caveman offense possible - it's his presence (and to a lesser extent ET) that allows Brad to field a bunch of stonemasons.

As long as IT's here, it's going to be the IT show with everybody else playing D, rebounding, filling lanes in transition and chucking endless 3s. Unless you can replace ET (and/or Sully) with someone with enough stature to start and push IT back into more of a 6th man, king of the 2nd unit role.

The #3 pick isn't going to be that guy. With IT here, he's going to either battle the roleplayer army for a niche in the starting line-up (highly unlikely), or battle Smart/KO/whoever for the chance to be ET's heir as the focal point of the 2nd unit. Most likely he'll be fighting Rozier/Hunter/Mickey for the roleplayer scrap minutes.

Even trading AB means very little. He creates room for a young guy to play, but with IT in the backcourt, that young guy better be ready to defend multiple positions and play off the ball. So basically we'd be starting Smart no matter who we drafted.

Conservative punting scenarios change this team very little, and open up very little room for high-level asset development unless we're drafting a high-level defensive big man who can crack the rotation (and here comes ryaningf with a Bender screed).

So we'd be looking at a near identical team next year, with all of our hopes for a different result pinned on everyone else getting a little worse and there being more people for IT to try to recruit.

I don't think IT's so good that we need to stay in the holding pattern with him as the face of our high-end mediocrity.

If we can't add pieces better than him now, I say hand over the reins to some guys who will be better than him and/or more valuable in the near future.

Consider - who will be more valuable next offseason. An expiring bargain contract IT or a promising young guy coming off a big rookie season?
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#732 » by Edug27 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:17 pm

BigTrade92 wrote:I'm getting the feeling more and more that this is going to be another off-season of sparklers instead of fireworks.

That being said, I still do think at least one major move will be made. Would not be surprised to see at least Kevin Love in Boston, but to me, that ship has sailed long ago.


Everyday there is a new "I would not be surprised to see ..... in Boston"

No... We should all be shocked to see Danny acquire any top notch talent this summer. Not surprised... Shocked.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#733 » by Jingles » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:17 pm

The_Ghost_of_JB wrote:
bigfoot_cryptozoology wrote:Woj Semi-Bomb: No one's trading an All Star for the players in this draft...

http://www.masslive.com/celtics/index.ssf/2016/06/2016_nba_draft_rumors_boston_c_8.html

Boston and Phoenix, right until they make those picks at 7:45 or 7:50 Eastern (on draft night), they're going to be chasing veterans," Wojnarowski said recently on his podcast.

ESPN's Marc Stein reported Tuesday night that the Celtics have tried (and so far failed) to strike deals for Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, Jabari Parker and Gordon Hayward. Wojnarowski thinks the Celtics and Suns, who hold the third and fourth picks, respectively, are "not getting All-Stars for those picks."

"Neither wants to draft a player there," Wojnarowski said. "They want to trade those picks to get a very good (player). I think they'd ideally like to get an All-Star. They're not getting All-Stars for those picks. Jimmy Butler, Gordon Hayward, players that those teams are calling on -- they are not available, they're not getting (traded) for a pick in this draft. I'm not sure that those kind of players you (could trade pick No.) 1 or 2 for an All-Star player. I'm not sure anyone's that sold on (Brandon) Ingram or (Ben) Simmons that they would trade an established All-Star now, or a budding All-Star."


I have been saying this since day 1. Butler, Cousins, Love, George will not be had for the 3rd freaking pick. Celtics are stuck with most of these picks and when the clock rolls around Celtics are making the 3rd pick for themselves.

I guarantee when Ainge is interviewed after the draft he will look like he just came back from a funeral.


Of course he will. He's going to be Jack Bauering these next two days and he can't have caffeine.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#734 » by sam_I_am » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:19 pm

I agree that Simmons failing to make NCAA tourney and Ingram's 186 lb. make them major question marks too. Bender, Dunn and Murray actually make this a 5 player draft for starter material but there isn't a single sure fire franchise guy. Simmons and Ingram could easily be Odom and Tayshaun Prince level starters and a far cry from Lebron and Durant. Although I agree that top 2 are most intriguing, I'd still rather have Butler, George than either of them.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#735 » by mwhis21 » Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:57 pm

I'm totally fine with the C's pick at 3.

In the day of advanced metrics and over-analyzing this draft is being slept on pretty hard. I do believe there are going to be 3-4 All-Stars that come from this draft. Does Danny draft one? Well, that's another conversations.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#736 » by esm1885 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:22 am

yo twolves fan here, how badly do you guys want to retain sullinger? and how much would another team have to offer for c's FO to let him walk?
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#737 » by Andrew McCeltic » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:25 am

The star-chasing is a waste of energy. Do we want Kris Dunn, Jaylen Brown, Dragan Bender, or are we calling Philly asking for Okafor or Noel? That's the decision to make.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#738 » by Andrew McCeltic » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:27 am

Assuming Bender's a disappointment, which he seems to be, to me it's Jaylen Brown vs. trading Dunn to Philly. Brown's nice, but next year's draft is going to be full of better players if we want to add a scoring wing prospect.

So to me, the question is what we want from Philly. Okafor/LAL 1st? Noel/Saric? That's the one I'm torn on.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#739 » by London2Boston » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:27 am

esm1885 wrote:yo twolves fan here, how badly do you guys want to retain sullinger? and how much would another team have to offer for c's FO to let him walk?


He's out regardless imo.
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Re: The Official Off-Season Thread, part I of many 

Post#740 » by brackdan70 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:29 am

esm1885 wrote:yo twolves fan here, how badly do you guys want to retain sullinger? and how much would another team have to offer for c's FO to let him walk?


i really have no clue what the FO thinks. my guess is they offer a QO and see what happens. Hopefully they can sign a better player in Free Agency and Sully finds a good home.

I think 4/40 would pry him the Cs.
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