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Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2

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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#741 » by Captain_Caveman » Mon May 11, 2020 10:44 pm

theman wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
#1, your non answer demonstrates that you clearly supported the Iraq War. So there's your 10% right there. Are you clear on that?

In the bigger picture, you are dealing from an economic ideology that has been discredited 1,000 times over. Nothing to do with politics, mind you. But saying that tax cuts don't run up the debt is economic illiteracy, pure and simple. That's like saying a paycut doesn't reduce your household income.

Speaking as someone who is not getting a stimulus check despite having two children, feel free to take back my tax cut. But let's take it a step further and restore tax rates across the board to what they were from the end of WW2 until the early 2000s. More to the point, you absolutely do widespread stimulus from where we are right now. It is literally the only hope to keep the global economy afloat right now. Anything else is all but sure to lose you a lot of money.


You can read an answer any way you want. Whether for it or against it it could have been fought a lot cheaper.

If you never borrow you will have not debt. That is where debt comes from whether you are a government or an individual. If you are making $50,000/year and then get a pay cut to $40,000/year you do not go into debt unless you over spend your means.

Let's also move spending back to where it was following WW2 (after Truman cut the budget in half, despite being told doing so would hurt the economy).


I'll read it as you supporting the war but not wanting to admit to it now.

On debt, I think most people understand the equation here. Budgets are a matter of revenue and spending together, not one or the other. All debt/spending not bad, either. You ever take out a mortgage? If so, it was probably because (99% chance) you were investing above your "means", or (1% chance) you knew that could use the same money to outperform a low-interest loan. Either way, you took on debt as a means to invest. That's something smart people do with their wealth.

As to Truman cutting the budget, lemme see... jogging my memory here... I wonder if that was because a super-expensive World War had just ended. Something else that happened in that same era (FDR to Eisenhower) was a massive investment in our people. GI Bill, education, infrastructure, subsidies to major industries. It created a robust economy and robust middle class, and the highest standard of living anyone had ever had to that point. That's something smart nations do with their wealth.

And not, like... spend it away on needless wars fought under false pretenses, or by giving tax cuts to the ultrawealthy or corporations.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#742 » by Captain_Caveman » Mon May 11, 2020 10:46 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
theman wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
#1, your non answer demonstrates that you clearly supported the Iraq War. So there's your 10% right there. Are you clear on that?

In the bigger picture, you are dealing from an economic ideology that has been discredited 1,000 times over. Nothing to do with politics, mind you. But saying that tax cuts don't run up the debt is economic illiteracy, pure and simple. That's like saying a paycut doesn't reduce your household income.

Speaking as someone who is not getting a stimulus check despite having two children, feel free to take back my tax cut. But let's take it a step further and restore tax rates across the board to what they were from the end of WW2 until the early 2000s. More to the point, you absolutely do widespread stimulus from where we are right now. It is literally the only hope to keep the global economy afloat right now. Anything else is all but sure to lose you a lot of money.


You can read an answer any way you want. Whether for it or against it it could have been fought a lot cheaper.

If you never borrow you will have not debt. That is where debt comes from whether you are a government or an individual. If you are making $50,000/year and then get a pay cut to $40,000/year you do not go into debt unless you over spend your means.

Let's also move spending back to where it was following WW2 (after Truman cut the budget in half, despite being told doing so would hurt the economy).

What's all this got to do with the present COVID-19?
Stay On-Topic you Guys.


~ Parl


Just saw that. My bad on late response.

Economic stimulus definitely has a lot to do with COVID, though. Doing it should be a given in the big picture, and not at all political until you get down to the nuts and bolts of a particular proposal.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#743 » by claycarver » Mon May 11, 2020 11:15 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:
theman wrote:
You can read an answer any way you want. Whether for it or against it it could have been fought a lot cheaper.

If you never borrow you will have not debt. That is where debt comes from whether you are a government or an individual. If you are making $50,000/year and then get a pay cut to $40,000/year you do not go into debt unless you over spend your means.

Let's also move spending back to where it was following WW2 (after Truman cut the budget in half, despite being told doing so would hurt the economy).

What's all this got to do with the present COVID-19?
Stay On-Topic you Guys.


~ Parl


Just saw that. My bad on late response.

Economic stimulus definitely has a lot to do with COVID, though. Doing should be a given in the big picture, and not at all political until you get down to the nuts and bolts of a particular proposal.


The government has been throwing money around liberally to this point. I usually roll my eyes at Senate hearings, but I'd actually appreciate it if the government took a breath and listened to experts explain which spending has been helpful before opening the spigot again.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#744 » by SuperDeluxe » Tue May 12, 2020 12:39 am

floyd wrote:Sorry if this was posted already but my uncle (a semi retired infectious disease MD) sent me it and despite my reading a lot about this I learned quite a bit about how the virus (likely) spreads.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Many thanks for sharing this. The fact that a qualified person sent it to you lends the document credibility. Great read.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#745 » by Captain_Caveman » Tue May 12, 2020 1:18 am

SuperDeluxe wrote:
floyd wrote:Sorry if this was posted already but my uncle (a semi retired infectious disease MD) sent me it and despite my reading a lot about this I learned quite a bit about how the virus (likely) spreads.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Many thanks for sharing this. The fact that a qualified person sent it to you lends the document credibility. Great read.


It's a good one. One of my smarter friends sent that yesterday.

tl;dr outside = good, indoors in big spaces w few people for shorter time = so-so, indoors in smaller, crowded spaces for longer time = all bad.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#746 » by reload141 » Tue May 12, 2020 1:56 am

Captain_Caveman wrote:
SuperDeluxe wrote:
floyd wrote:Sorry if this was posted already but my uncle (a semi retired infectious disease MD) sent me it and despite my reading a lot about this I learned quite a bit about how the virus (likely) spreads.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Many thanks for sharing this. The fact that a qualified person sent it to you lends the document credibility. Great read.


It's a good one. One of my smarter friends sent that yesterday.

tl;dr outside = good, indoors in big spaces w few people for shorter time = so-so, indoors in smaller, crowded spaces for longer time = all bad.


This is what I don't understand.... some Farmers Markets in Victoria have been cancelled but supermarkets continue to be open (for obvious reasons)

Both provide essential services yet one is outside and one is inside....yet they ban the one outside even though some farmers can't break into the supermarket market to sell their produce so they travel to farmers markets to sell their food instead.

Hoping this changes soon.

Edit: Let me say that the supermarkets are PACKED and yes they have hand sanitiser and labels to encourage social distancing they are still mega packed and hardly anyone is actually doing it. It would make sense to reopen farmers markets.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#747 » by Captain_Caveman » Tue May 12, 2020 2:00 am

reload141 wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
SuperDeluxe wrote:Many thanks for sharing this. The fact that a qualified person sent it to you lends the document credibility. Great read.


It's a good one. One of my smarter friends sent that yesterday.

tl;dr outside = good, indoors in big spaces w few people for shorter time = so-so, indoors in smaller, crowded spaces for longer time = all bad.


This is what I don't understand.... some Farmers Markets in Victoria have been cancelled but supermarkets continue to be open (for obvious reasons)

Both provide essential services yet one is outside and one is inside....yet they ban the one outside even though some farmers can't break into the supermarket market to sell their produce so they travel to farmers markets to sell their food instead.

Hoping this changes soon.

Edit: Let me say that the supermarkets are PACKED and yes they have hand sanitiser and labels to encourage social distancing they are still mega packed and hardly anyone is actually doing it. It would make sense to reopen farmers markets.


yeah, for all the stupidity among the "reopen now" push, there is a definite slant towards big box stores over mom and pop stores of all kinds.

But you guys are a lot closer than we are, just hold tight, I guess.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#748 » by floyd » Tue May 12, 2020 3:59 am

SuperDeluxe wrote:
floyd wrote:Sorry if this was posted already but my uncle (a semi retired infectious disease MD) sent me it and despite my reading a lot about this I learned quite a bit about how the virus (likely) spreads.
https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

Many thanks for sharing this. The fact that a qualified person sent it to you lends the document credibility. Great read.


Happy to share - my uncle is a good (and very smart) guy ... for a Cavs fan anyway.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#749 » by Slax » Tue May 12, 2020 4:23 pm

A good article about the Hong Kong success story, and how it can be attributed to well-informed and well-organized civilians who took steps to educate its public and encourage physical distancing measures that protected the city against the potential for an outbreak: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/05/how-hong-kong-beating-coronavirus/611524/

The secret sauce of Hong Kong’s response was its people, and crucially, the movement that engulfed the city in 2019. Seared with the memory of SARS, and already mobilized for the past year against their unpopular government, the city’s citizens acted swiftly, collectively, and efficiently, in effect saving themselves. Crucially, the organizational capacity and the civic infrastructure built by the protest movement played a central role in Hong Kong’s grassroots response.

For example, during last fall’s district-council elections, Hong Kong protesters created many resources to guide and mobilize voters in what were otherwise local elections of little consequence, but that had become symbolically important in the middle of the protest wave. One key initiative was websites that provided information on candidates so voters could easily figure out who was pro-government and who was not—not always easy when the candidates were supposed to be discussing garbage collection, not Beijing’s attempts to limit Hong Kong’s constitutional protections. On the very day the first known coronavirus case in Hong Kong was announced, the same protester team behind the candidate information sites immediately created a new website—this time to track cases of COVID-19, monitor hot spots, warn people of places selling fake PPE, and report hospital wait times and other relevant information.


For me, one of the encouraging things about this is that it shows how people can be smart and act in ways that help suppress the spread of the virus even in the absence of government action. I think a lot of people on this forum are finding it really discouraging to see photos of people crowding in public places like beaches, to read stories about state governments like Georgia and Florida choosing to allow businesses to reopen earlier than most public health officials are advising, to see the federal government just not committing to a plan to keep the public safe, protests intended to force state governments to remove restrictions faster than intended, and so on. And I share all those frustrations. But I'm also optimistic, because at the end of the day, the potential for the spread of the virus depends more on what actual people do than on what their governments tell them they are allowed to do. And in spite of these occasional images that pop up showing a few hundred idiots crowding in beaches or attending protests from time to time, I have come around to the view that most people are much better informed than they were a few months ago and are taking the virus seriously and are scared for themselves and their families, at least for now. I assume that lots of people won't do everything they should be doing according to public health experts, and also there are always going to be some people who just act like total idiots. But as long as a large majority of people aren't attending events with thousands of people like concerts and sports and conferences, and public transportation doesn't get too packed, and people continue to dine out less and sit further apart at restaurants when they do, and people wash their hands more regularly, and lots of people wear masks in public, and so on, there's at least a pretty good chance that these state reopenings won't result in the massive second spikes we all fear. There's still big tail risk, but I think we don't know for sure one way or the other which way this is going to go.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#750 » by theman » Tue May 12, 2020 10:06 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
reload141 wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
It's a good one. One of my smarter friends sent that yesterday.

tl;dr outside = good, indoors in big spaces w few people for shorter time = so-so, indoors in smaller, crowded spaces for longer time = all bad.


This is what I don't understand.... some Farmers Markets in Victoria have been cancelled but supermarkets continue to be open (for obvious reasons)

Both provide essential services yet one is outside and one is inside....yet they ban the one outside even though some farmers can't break into the supermarket market to sell their produce so they travel to farmers markets to sell their food instead.

Hoping this changes soon.

Edit: Let me say that the supermarkets are PACKED and yes they have hand sanitiser and labels to encourage social distancing they are still mega packed and hardly anyone is actually doing it. It would make sense to reopen farmers markets.


yeah, for all the stupidity among the "reopen now" push, there is a definite slant towards big box stores over mom and pop stores of all kinds.

But you guys are a lot closer than we are, just hold tight, I guess.


When all this started, I said a slow reopen would make sense. My thought was small businesses should be able to open first. I makes sense for a multiple of reasons. I gives them a competitive advantage over bigger competitor, they have fewer people thus less chance of human to human transmissions, the are likely to do less travel there for less risk of bringing it in from other places.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#751 » by SuperDeluxe » Tue May 12, 2020 10:21 pm

SuperDeluxe wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:There is no significant risk for people under 50 with no pre existing conditions. I understood shelter in place a month and a half ago when we were trying to learn more about the virus and make sure the hospitals don’t get over run. It no longer makes sense. The data is in. The hospitals have room and young healthy people are not dying. Still take precautions, masks, social distance, etc. but open things up.

Here in Quebec, 0.8% of the deaths so far are in the 30-49 group. No idea if any of those had pre-existing conditions, though.

The most mind-boggling piece of data here in Quebec is that women account for 60% of the confirmed cases. In terms of deaths, that number goes down a bit to 54%.

Quoting myself here to share an article that makes the above data from Quebec look weird;
https://neurosciencenews.com/ace2-men-blood-coronavirus-16354/
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#752 » by exculpatory » Wed May 13, 2020 2:32 am

SuperDeluxe wrote:
SuperDeluxe wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:There is no significant risk for people under 50 with no pre existing conditions. I understood shelter in place a month and a half ago when we were trying to learn more about the virus and make sure the hospitals don’t get over run. It no longer makes sense. The data is in. The hospitals have room and young healthy people are not dying. Still take precautions, masks, social distance, etc. but open things up.

Here in Quebec, 0.8% of the deaths so far are in the 30-49 group. No idea if any of those had pre-existing conditions, though.

The most mind-boggling piece of data here in Quebec is that women account for 60% of the confirmed cases. In terms of deaths, that number goes down a bit to 54%.

Quoting myself here to share an article that makes the above data from Quebec look weird;
https://neurosciencenews.com/ace2-men-blood-coronavirus-16354/


Your last link is VERY important.
It suggests why men seem to become more frequently & severely affected than women.
Even MORE importantly, it supports a boatload of other very recent studies that indicate the ARBs & ACE inhibitors taken by literally tens of millions of patients for CHF & simple hypertension should absolutely NOT be discontinued EITHER to avoid COVID-19 infection or AFTER being infected (and may actually MITIGATE COVID-19-induced ARDS - prospective, randomized, double blind, placebo controlled trials are happening right now).


Source: European Society of Cardiology
Men’s blood contains greater concentrations of enzyme that helps COVID-19 infect cells
FeaturedGeneticsNeuroscienceOpen Neuroscience Articles·May 11, 2020
Summary: Men have higher concentrations of ACE2 in their blood than women. As ACE2 enables coronavirus to infect cells, the findings may explain why men are more susceptible to COVID-19 infection than women.
Evidence from a large study of several thousand patients shows that men have higher concentrations of angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) in their blood than women. Since ACE2 enables the coronavirus to infect healthy cells, this may help to explain why men are more vulnerable to COVID-19 than women.
The study, published in the European Heart Journal today, also found that heart failure patients taking drugs targeting the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system (RAAS), such as angiotensin-converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors or angiotensin receptor blockers (ARBs), did not have higher concentrations of ACE2 in their blood.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#753 » by exculpatory » Wed May 13, 2020 2:43 am

I have posted multiple times in this thread regarding the potential for hydroxychloroquine +/- azithromycin to prolong the QTc interval in susceptible patients potentially resulting in fatal torsades de pointes/ventricular tachycardia.

What this link demonstrates that many lay people do not know is that many physicians are **** morons. I have encountered many incredibly dedicated & diligent fellow physicians during my extended medical career. Sadly, I have also experienced careless dimwits.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/930382
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#754 » by Parliament10 » Wed May 13, 2020 3:42 am

Read on Twitter




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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#755 » by threrf23 » Wed May 13, 2020 6:10 am

It's a good thing this plane was taking off from NYC, where there are very few coronavirus cases.

Read on Twitter
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#756 » by ConstableGeneva » Wed May 13, 2020 9:34 am

Read on Twitter

The top three U.S. airlines have told their flight attendants not to force passengers to comply with their new policy requiring face coverings, just encourage them to do so, according to employee policies reviewed by Reuters.
“Once on board and off the gate, the face covering policy becomes more lenient. The flight attendant’s role is informational, not enforcement, with respect to the face covering policy,” American told its pilots in a message seen by Reuters explaining its policy, which went into effect on Monday.

“Bottom line to the pilots: a passenger on board your aircraft who is being compliant with the exception of wearing a face covering is NOT considered disruptive enough to trigger a Threat Level 1 response,” referring to some kind of intentional disruption by a passenger that could cause the captain to divert the flight.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#757 » by exculpatory » Wed May 13, 2020 12:30 pm

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766117

HQ + azithromycin = not efficacious in seriously ill COVID-19 patients.
Await the results of optimally designed studies.
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#758 » by ConstableGeneva » Wed May 13, 2020 1:02 pm

Be more like cats and save lives.
Read on Twitter
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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#759 » by jfs1000d » Wed May 13, 2020 1:04 pm

exculpatory wrote:I have posted multiple times in this thread regarding the potential for hydroxychloroquine +/- azithromycin to prolong the QTc interval in susceptible patients potentially resulting in fatal torsades de pointes/ventricular tachycardia.

What this link demonstrates that many lay people do not know is that many physicians are **** morons. I have encountered many incredibly dedicated & diligent fellow physicians during my extended medical career. Sadly, I have also experienced careless dimwits.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/930382


What do you call someone who graduates with a C average from medical school?

A doctor.


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Re: Coronavirus/COVID-19, Thread 2 

Post#760 » by jfs1000d » Wed May 13, 2020 1:07 pm

exculpatory wrote:https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766117

HQ + azithromycin = not efficacious in seriously ill COVID-19 patients.
Await the results of optimally designed studies.


Don’t you think we are chasing our tail here with HQ?

Early results arent promising, and the only reason it has this visibility is the president pushes it. If there wasn’t a political reason to pursue would we have cut bait on the studies?


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