Official Celtics 2021-22 Season Thread

[Curmudgeon]

He means we’d be better off adding two great roleplayers instead of one dominant scorer

Yes, you know what RoCo will bring and Halliburton is a fine young point guard and potential star. And I'm guessing the trade assets it would take to acquire these two players would be less than what you would need to acquire Beal.

And in response to several other posts, what does Beal have to do with the Celtics? He's under contract with the Wizards and has expressed no interest in leaving.

[ryaningf]

He means we’d be better off adding two great roleplayers instead of one dominant scorer

Yes, you know what RoCo will bring and Halliburton is a fine young point guard and potential star. And I'm guessing the trade assets it would take to acquire these two players would be less than what you would need to acquire Beal.

And in response to several other posts, what does Beal have to do with the Celtics? He's under contract with the Wizards and has expressed no interest in leaving.

Yeah, we need to expand our imagination when it comes to adding a 3rd star. The established ones are easy to identify and hard to acquire, while the unestablished ones may be more realistic targets.

This is also why a team like the Cs can never afford to sit out the draft - since the draft represents perhaps the most realistic way of adding stars to the team.

That said, I think RoCo is cooked and the Kings probably aren't going to part with Haliburton (but maybe would part with Fox for Jaylen?).

[Parliament10]

He means we’d be better off adding two great roleplayers instead of one dominant scorer

Yes, you know what RoCo will bring and Halliburton is a fine young point guard and potential star. And I'm guessing the trade assets it would take to acquire these two players would be less than what you would need to acquire Beal.

And in response to several other posts, what does Beal have to do with the Celtics? He's under contract with the Wizards and has expressed no interest in leaving.

Yeah, we need to expand our imagination when it comes to adding a 3rd star. The established ones are easy to identify and hard to acquire, while the unestablished ones may be more realistic targets.

This is also why a team like the Cs can never afford to sit out the draft - since the draft represents perhaps the most realistic way of adding stars to the team.

That said, I think RoCo is cooked and the Kings probably aren't going to part with Haliburton (but maybe would part with Fox for Jaylen?).

Ok. I see what y'all are saying now.
It may be better to just Keep our 2 Stars, and add really good supporting players.

I think that it's really hard to add that 3rd Star, and keep the continuity of a team.
Like ryaningf said, the Draft is one of the best ways to add a Star.

[BostonCouchGM]

Tatum wasn't really consistently a true #1 last season. He definitely has the potential to be a low end #1 though which should be sufficient. Brown isn't a #2 because his defense is no longer above average. If he could duplicate his first half offense where he was well above 1:1 assist/TO, score at or close to last season but also bring up his defense, then he could be a #2 but I wouldn't count on it. He's injury prone, has poor BBIQ and a worse handle. He's just about what you should expect. On the same level as other #3s around the league like Middleton, Hayward, Grant, Murray, Ingram and LaVine. Of course you'd trade Brown for Beal and plenty of us want this. But you aren't getting him without Brown because years of bad drafting have left us with lackluster assets. We're going to have to wait until he comes here on his own unless we include Brown.

Agreed - it's highly unlikely we can get Beal without Brown unless we wait until the 2022 offseason. I expect the only particularly likely way he comes here for less during the 2021-22 season is if he demands a trade specifically here and threatens not to re-sign with any other potential trade partner, which would be out of character for Beal.

What I don't think people have considered is that, yes Beal and Tatum clearly want to play together, but it doesn't necessarily mean Beal is coming here. I think there's an even greater chance the two of them arrange a way to join forces on a team not named the Wizards or Celtics. When, not if, we get bounced early next playoffs, Tatum is going to look around and know he's on the Giannis path to nowhere. Even if they can manage to sign Beal, the rest of the team and depth will be putrid and incapable of competing for championships. I think a lot of teams know this and will be preparing to have a compelling package to send us and the cap space to sign Beal.

I fully expect Tatum to either be gone when his contract is up, or sign short term deals with player options if we are an active championship contender and there aren't other good options, so I'm probably on the more pessimistic side of this forum about keeping Tatum here for the long term. I also don't see Beal to the Celtics as anything resembling a done deal so much as a realistic possibility - there are other potential destinations for him, and he may just stay on the Wizards. And it's THEORETICALLY possible Tatum could TRY to pull a Harden, demand out, and tank his trade value to force his way onto a team that also has the cap space to sign Beal to create a team up next off-season. But it's absolutely wild to suggest that this is even a remotely likely possibility, much less a forgone conclusion. It's very easy for Beal to arrange a S&T to the Celtics and end up on a good team, while it's basically impossible for any team to give up enough assets for Tatum while he still has three years left on his deal, use its cap space or S&T for Beal, and still have a better and deeper team than whatever the Celtics would have after a Beal S&T that doesn't include Brown. What team could possibly do that?

plenty of teams actually. OKC, CHA, HOU, DET, TOR, SAS, SAC, ORL, NY, NO. tbh any big market team can as well, even if it doesn't seem like it right now because the league will facilitate it.

[ICeeYou]

But I do think it’s fair (I don’t agree with the thinking) to question whether or not Beal is the right 3rd guy to pair with Brown/Tatum.

The great part about Brown is he’s really efficient with his touches and has developed primarily as an off-ball catch and shoot, catch and drive threat.

The only other question is just how far you have to go as far as losing productive players from the roster to get Beal and how steep is the climb to acquire the role players you will need after acquiring Beal.

Folks love to downplay that part (get your stars first and then role players will come) but it’s a lot harder to find those guys when you’re cash and asset strapped.

That’s why I keep advocating for Brad to continue to add salary above the lux tax now. You have to go big this off-season and really load the team up so that when you trade for Beal you have enough pieces left to assemble a fully ready to go 8-9 deep.

So use the MLE, use your trade exception, sign Fournier or S&T him. And then at the deadline you can use those salaries along with Thompson/Smart and the kids/picks to get Beal.

Welcome to the board. I see you too.

The I think we tend to gloss over the positional diversity required of a big 3 to make it a BIG 3. Which is another way of saying we just don't need 3 All-Stars, we need 3 All-Stars who all compliment each other. Typically, that means at least one of them is a PF or a center and so the "problem" with Tatum/Brown/Beal isn't talent it's that there's only 1 ball and none of those guys is taller than 6'8" or known for their defense. (Perhaps the Nets will clear this hurdle with their Big 3 - but then again, one of those 3 is 7 foot).

While I'd prefer to keep Brown, I think the discussions of trading him should be limited to discussions of trading him for an All-Star (or potential All-Star) who plays PF or center. Otherwise, what's the point - we'd still be lacking a big. I'm not saying I'd necessarily want to trade Jaylen for Jaren Jackson Jr but those are the types of trades that make actual sense in the context of this particular team winning a championship.

Your point about adding salary to load up with role players and talent is well-taken too - we just can't plan for how to acquire a 3rd star, we need to prepare for what comes afterwards too. This means not only "adding salary" but scouring the market in Europe, D-League, and Summer League to find a 3-and-D PF/Center for minimal salary - there are lots of guys looking for opportunities and we have a very substantial hole at PF right now (I'd argue every legitimate big on the roster is better at 5 than at 4).

Thank you!

Agreed, ideally you could have a more balanced “trio” of stars. But I do think that, there is probably a path to building out a decently balanced team post a trade for Beal.

I don’t think that’s the case if they don’t spend above the luxury tax this off-season though.

If they can smartly add salary and identify some low cost guys (like they did with Theis a few years back), draft well, and pick up some guys in the league already, they could be in good shape post trading for Beal.

But that would definitely also require them to either keep or use Fournier’s salary slot and use the trade exception. That way they won’t be decimated after unloading a bunch to acquire Beal. If you can get him and hang onto Brown it keeps that door open to move Brown down the road a bit to get that third guy who maybe fits better with Tatum and Beal.

[moonie_mcgee]

But I do think it’s fair (I don’t agree with the thinking) to question whether or not Beal is the right 3rd guy to pair with Brown/Tatum.

The great part about Brown is he’s really efficient with his touches and has developed primarily as an off-ball catch and shoot, catch and drive threat.

The only other question is just how far you have to go as far as losing productive players from the roster to get Beal and how steep is the climb to acquire the role players you will need after acquiring Beal.

Folks love to downplay that part (get your stars first and then role players will come) but it’s a lot harder to find those guys when you’re cash and asset strapped.

That’s why I keep advocating for Brad to continue to add salary above the lux tax now. You have to go big this off-season and really load the team up so that when you trade for Beal you have enough pieces left to assemble a fully ready to go 8-9 deep.

So use the MLE, use your trade exception, sign Fournier or S&T him. And then at the deadline you can use those salaries along with Thompson/Smart and the kids/picks to get Beal.

Welcome to the board. I see you too.

The I think we tend to gloss over the positional diversity required of a big 3 to make it a BIG 3. Which is another way of saying we just don't need 3 All-Stars, we need 3 All-Stars who all compliment each other. Typically, that means at least one of them is a PF or a center and so the "problem" with Tatum/Brown/Beal isn't talent it's that there's only 1 ball and none of those guys is taller than 6'8" or known for their defense. (Perhaps the Nets will clear this hurdle with their Big 3 - but then again, one of those 3 is 7 foot).

While I'd prefer to keep Brown, I think the discussions of trading him should be limited to discussions of trading him for an All-Star (or potential All-Star) who plays PF or center. Otherwise, what's the point - we'd still be lacking a big. I'm not saying I'd necessarily want to trade Jaylen for Jaren Jackson Jr but those are the types of trades that make actual sense in the context of this particular team winning a championship.

Your point about adding salary to load up with role players and talent is well-taken too - we just can't plan for how to acquire a 3rd star, we need to prepare for what comes afterwards too. This means not only "adding salary" but scouring the market in Europe, D-League, and Summer League to find a 3-and-D PF/Center for minimal salary - there are lots of guys looking for opportunities and we have a very substantial hole at PF right now (I'd argue every legitimate big on the roster is better at 5 than at 4).

Ryan that's room 101 talk.
The league has evolved.
It's positionless hoops now.
Beal Brown and Tatum is a championship core.
/sarc

[Andrew McCeltic]

Here's a thought experiment: the Clippers trade Marcus Morris, Beverley, Zubac for Bradley Beal. Championship team?

They're out of 1sts to replenish the roster, they're over the cap, Reggie Jackson and Batum are UFA who can get more money somewhere else, Ibaka could opt out (tho he won't). So:

Rondo
Beal/Mann
Kawhi/Kennard
George
Ibaka/Otoru

Is that team better than the one LA has now? With seven roster spots to fill with veteran minimum players? The Clippers have a subpar supporting cast now - so what happens if you add a third star and make the rest of the rotation worse?

[Slax]

Here's a thought experiment: the Clippers trade Marcus Morris, Beverley, Zubac for Bradley Beal. Championship team?

They're out of 1sts to replenish the roster, they're over the cap, Reggie Jackson and Batum are UFA who can get more money somewhere else, Ibaka could opt out (tho he won't). So:

Rondo
Beal/Mann
Kawhi/Kennard
George
Ibaka/Otoru

Is that team better than the one LA has now? With seven roster spots to fill with veteran minimum players? The Clippers have a subpar supporting cast now - so what happens if you add a third star and make the rest of the rotation worse?

Yes probably, although even if it isn't, I'm not sure I understand how a hypothetical where LAC would trade three veteran starters for one player and then lose two more vets in free agency is relevant to the hypothetical Boston trade you proposed earlier that would involve giving up one starter, a backup shooting guard, and a third string center for the same player. (Also I guess it's beside the point, but this is a salary-reducing move for the Clips that doesn't hard cap them, so insofar as they are likely to lose Jackson and/or Batum, it would be more likely to happen pre-trade than post-trade, and they would still be allowed to use the taxpayer MLE.)

The thing is, you don't actually need to come up with a hypothetical to convince me that there are cases where trading three roleplayers and a draft pick for a star player could make a team worse because it leads to depth and roster construction issues. But the examples you are going to come up with mostly aren't going to be that similar to the hypothetical trade we discussed earlier in the thread where the Celtics get to add Beal while keeping Brown, Tatum, Horford, Rob, Langford, Pritchard, and Fournier, and remain eligible to use the taxpayer MLE and multiple TPE's. I suspect that amount of outgoing value wouldn't even be enough to snag Beal, and that he's more likely to be available at a reasonable price for a S&T or opt-in-and-trade in the 2022 offseason, but I'm working with what you're giving me here.

[Andrew McCeltic]

It’s relevant as a question of whether a team can give up too much and be worse off with a third star player. And I just wouldn’t get Beal and then rely on Horford/Rob/Romeo/Pritchard/Fournier as the supporting cast. Fournier would be redundant and the other four are wild cards.

[jfs1000d]

Here's a thought experiment: the Clippers trade Marcus Morris, Beverley, Zubac for Bradley Beal. Championship team?

They're out of 1sts to replenish the roster, they're over the cap, Reggie Jackson and Batum are UFA who can get more money somewhere else, Ibaka could opt out (tho he won't). So:

Rondo
Beal/Mann
Kawhi/Kennard
George
Ibaka/Otoru

Is that team better than the one LA has now? With seven roster spots to fill with veteran minimum players? The Clippers have a subpar supporting cast now - so what happens if you add a third star and make the rest of the rotation worse?

Yes. That team is better than the one LA has now. It just can’t suffer an injury.


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[Andrew McCeltic]

Not sure what trade I proposed earlier - you mean Smart/TT/Nesmith? Wasn’t proposing that, there’s almost no way that gets Beal, it would be a miracle. I meant that’s the only trade you could do that would leave enough depth and value on the roster to genuinely contend. As in, IMO, there’s no way to get Beal and be a favorite - you’d be competing on a very thin margin. That’s why I brought up the Celtics post-KG trade and a hypothetical Clippers team.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Here's a thought experiment: the Clippers trade Marcus Morris, Beverley, Zubac for Bradley Beal. Championship team?

They're out of 1sts to replenish the roster, they're over the cap, Reggie Jackson and Batum are UFA who can get more money somewhere else, Ibaka could opt out (tho he won't). So:

Rondo
Beal/Mann
Kawhi/Kennard
George
Ibaka/Otoru

Is that team better than the one LA has now? With seven roster spots to fill with veteran minimum players? The Clippers have a subpar supporting cast now - so what happens if you add a third star and make the rest of the rotation worse?

Yes. That team is better than the one LA has now. It just can’t suffer an injury.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rondo is done and Ibaka has back problems.

The only team to run that path and win recently is the Lakers last year. And AD and Lebron were special, and they lucked out with their signings.

[Half-Full]

List of NBA free agents at the link. If we do not sign Fournier, we do get the full MLE, and that can be split to sign more than one player. In that case who do we go after? Needs are at PF and PG, and getting a couple of vets to bolster our roster would be nice. How about Jeff Green, and T.J. McConnell or Reggie Jackson? PJ Tucker and Paul Millsap are both getting up in age, but could also be good additions. I would be interested to know what others think (if this is the route we go down).

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

[Andrew McCeltic]

List of NBA free agents at the link. If we do not sign Fournier, we do get the full MLE, and that can be split to sign more than one player. In that case who do we go after? Needs are at PF and PG, and getting a couple of vets to bolster our roster would be nice. How about Jeff Green, and T.J. McConnell or Reggie Jackson? PJ Tucker and Paul Millsap are both getting up in age, but could also be good additions. I would be interested to know what others think (if this is the route we go down).

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/

Makes no sense to do, but as a fallback if Fournier leaves, Dieng, Khem Birch and Noel could be good at the 5..

Otto Porter as a backup wing. Not much available at the PG spot..

Not sure you need to split the MLE, though - there’s not usually much of an in-between market with that and the minimum or the smaller exceptions

[Andrew McCeltic]

Leaning towards Ntilikina as an ideal third point guard.. he’s fixing, or has fixed, his three-point shot, so he’s an ideal 3&D guy off-ball. Superb defender with length.. only 23, anything else he can add as a slasher and distributor is gravy.

Wonder what people think of Harry Giles.. had a really disappointing year in Portland after a great preseason. Still fouls a lot, jumpshot in progress, but has demonstrated rebounding, post scoring and passing in Sacramento.

[Parliament10]

Radical Idea. #1
If we can't get a better Starting PG, then we go with Smart, Pritchard, Madar, and Draft a PG as a Two-Way.

M. Brown is Guaranteed $500K this year. He's been on Two-Ways for the last 2 years, and was later Converted.
I say, make him a Two-Way at the Start of the Season. And Convert him to a Regular Contract, if he pans out.

He could end up getting a much better contract than he has now.
I think that he'd make that gamble on himself.


Proposed Roster, 2021-22:
Starters: Smart - J. Brown - Fournier - Tatum - R.Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Langford - Nesmith - Parker - Horford
Reserves: Madar - ????? - ????? - G. Williams - Kornet
Two-Ways: Draft #45 (PG) - M. Brown

[playa-hater]

Radical Idea. #1
If we can't get a better Starting PG, then we go with Smart, Pritchard, Madar, and Draft a PG as a Two-Way.

M. Brown is Guaranteed $500K this year. He's been on Two-Ways for the last 2 years, and was later Converted.
I say, make him a Two-Way at the Start of the Season. And Convert him to a Regular Contract, if he pans out.

He could end up getting a much better contract than he has now.
I think that M. Brown would make that gamble on himself.


Proposed Roster, 2021-22:
Starters: Smart - J. Brown - Fournier - Tatum - R.Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Langford - Nesmith - Parker - Horford
Reserves: Madar - ????? - ????? - G. Williams - Kornet
Two-Ways: Draft #45 (PG) - M. Brown

this makes sense but I don't understand what is radical??

[Parliament10]

We had Gordon Hayward, Al Horford, and Kyrie Irving on the roster at the same time. That didn't work out quite so well.
And then we had Kemba Walker. That didn't work out too well, either.

How about = We just stick with the Guys that we Drafted?
Tatum, J. Brown, and Smart seem to have worked out well for us.

We should have just stuck with them, from the get-go. And saved the Celtics $350M. IJS
I don't think that we need to Trade for any other NBA Star. Not then. Not now.

In fact, I think that most of the Guys on the Roster now, that we Drafted, are pretty good.
Let's roll with what we got. It's been working.

[moonie_mcgee]

Radical Idea. #1
If we can't get a better Starting PG, then we go with Smart, Pritchard, Madar, and Draft a PG as a Two-Way.

M. Brown is Guaranteed $500K this year. He's been on Two-Ways for the last 2 years, and was later Converted.
I say, make him a Two-Way at the Start of the Season. And Convert him to a Regular Contract, if he pans out.

He could end up getting a much better contract than he has now.
I think that he'd make that gamble on himself.


Proposed Roster, 2021-22:
Starters: Smart - J. Brown - Fournier - Tatum - R.Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Langford - Nesmith - Parker - Horford
Reserves: Madar - ????? - ????? - G. Williams - Kornet
Two-Ways: Draft #45 (PG) - M. Brown

So that guy who had 20/20 against on a 2 way. I don't see it. It won't even get to that. When we see him play in the summer and in camp, it'll be moot. He'll be in the rotation. In fact he'll be playing all summer getting in tune for the season.

[Parliament10]

Radical Idea. #1
If we can't get a better Starting PG, then we go with Smart, Pritchard, Madar, and Draft a PG as a Two-Way.

M. Brown is Guaranteed $500K this year. He's been on Two-Ways for the last 2 years, and was later Converted.
I say, make him a Two-Way at the Start of the Season. And Convert him to a Regular Contract, if he pans out.

He could end up getting a much better contract than he has now.
I think that he'd make that gamble on himself.


Proposed Roster, 2021-22:
Starters: Smart - J. Brown - Fournier - Tatum - R.Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Langford - Nesmith - Parker - Horford
Reserves: Madar - ????? - ????? - G. Williams - Kornet
Two-Ways: Draft #45 (PG) - M. Brown

So that guy who had 20/20 against on a 2 way. I don't see it. It won't even get to that. When we see him play in the summer and in camp, it'll be moot. He'll be in the rotation. In fact he'll be playing all summer getting in tune for the season.

I'd LOVE to see that!!!