Trade Thread Tread pt.2 2023-24 - (Off-season)

[Andrew McCeltic]

In theory we could get Kuzma for Brogdon if he wants to leave Washington..

[FlatearthZorro]

Point guard upgrades, alternatives and prospects you could get for Smart or Brogdon + 0-3 firsts (my gut says White is their last choice of the three to trade):

Lavine: longshot but not impossible
DAR, FVV: lateral or worse
Suggs, Dyson Daniels, Davion Mitchell: rookie-scale, great D, 2/3 have upside.

Wings and bigs from teams who need point/combo guards:

Norm Powell, Naz Reid S&T, Tim Hardaway Jr/Bertans (lol, but we might get a pick or a Christian Wood S&T (lol again) in the bargain), Rui or Beasley S&T, Dillon Brooks (lol), Gary Harris (WCJ?)..

FVV at his 70% is better than Smart, imo. Plays hard, much better shooter.

[zoyathedestroya]

Actually bringing someone in to change the Celtics offensive philosophy is this core's only hope. Should be priority #1

If we’re not changing the core four (or six if you now include Rob and White), the way they play has to change. And get back to being an elite defense (harder to do with the decline of Horford and Rob’s unreliability).

I actually respect what Joe was trying to do. Offense was a problem last year, so you start the year prioritizing it, hope the defense carries over and then tune it up midseason when the offense is set.

Offense (particularly crunch time execution) has been the problem every time we lost in the ECF/Finals. So I get why they prioritized it but not at the expense of last year's defense. Anyway, whatever work they did to improve the offense was stumped by a high school defense.

[hugepatsfan]

Point guard upgrades, alternatives and prospects you could get for Smart or Brogdon + 0-3 firsts (my gut says White is their last choice of the three to trade):

Lavine: longshot but not impossible
DAR, FVV: lateral or worse
Suggs, Dyson Daniels, Davion Mitchell: rookie-scale, great D, 2/3 have upside.

Wings and bigs from teams who need point/combo guards:

Norm Powell, Naz Reid S&T, Tim Hardaway Jr/Bertans (lol, but we might get a pick or a Christian Wood S&T (lol again) in the bargain), Rui or Beasley S&T, Dillon Brooks (lol), Gary Harris (WCJ?)..

FVV at his 70% is better than Smart, imo. Plays hard, much better shooter.

FVV had a good year after Kawhi left, but he's been pretty bad the last 3 years. Dreadful shooting percentages and the 3 point shooting has been going down and down.

Still a quality player, but he's more of a different flavor of what Brogdon brought last year and the answer some of you think he is IMO.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Yeah I wouldn’t want FVV- DAR is intriguing over Brogdon but that brings a lot of other issues.

You want to take advantage of teams who are getting impatient on the way up (Orlando) or the way down (LA teams, Minny)

[Hal14]

Charles Oakley was a Jordan favorite in CHI. They made the unpopular decision to trade him for roster balance elsewhere because they had Horace Grant ready to step into (and improve) that PF spot.

I think we have a similar dynamic here with White and Smart. We are too roster heavy at that position with weaknesses in others. They are less than ideal options playing together. I think we need to make that same type of trade that CHI did.

Have been thinking the same thing. If the Celtics continue to plan on taking half their shots from 3, then Smart needs to get dealt for a better fit.

Agreed. I said it a couple weeks ago, but it really doesn't make sense to have 3 guys on the same team making $18mil a year (or more) who are all 6'4" or under. Not good roster balance.

I wouldn't trade White. Good shooter, very good defender, and doesn't hold onto the ball, doesn't over-dribble, doesn't take questionable shots. Was more durable than smart/brogdon this year and between the 3 of them, has by far the best combination of defense + shooting + ball moving.

There's a case you can make for each of these guys to be traded:

Smart - struggles shooting - a 33% shooter from 3 should not be taking 5+ threes a game. Sometimes slows down the offense by dribbling too much, walking the ball up the floor. And there were reports late in the season that some guys on the team were still not over the way things ended with Udoka - get those guys out of here. It's probably a reason why the team's effort/intensity was so inconsistent this season, and the effort/intensity/togetherness got even worse once Udoka was hired by Houston. Smart definitely seems like he took the Udoka suspension harder than most. Getting rid of him could be for the best. Smart also gets hurt a lot.

Brogdon - dribbled the ball too much, looked for his own shot too much instead of finding open teammates, forced drives quite a bit, missed layups a lot - all of which killed our ball movement, made us too iso heavy, often times he would just jack up 3's early in the shot clock which is not good offense either, and was one of our worst defenders. Not good enough for the amount of $ he's making, gets hurt a lot. Logjam at the guard position, so could potentially move him for a bigger player..

Grant - another guy who I think was a big Udoka supporter. He played much better and got more minutes when Udoka was here, compared to this season. He took a step back this season - could certainly have something to do with the coaching change. If he loves Udoka so much, f*ck it, let's trade him to Houston. There seems to be a disconnect anyways between what Grant thinks he's worth and what Brad is willing to pay him. We can get someone else to play Grant's role (someone like Finney-Smith, Royce O'Neal, Larry Nance Jr, Jae'Sean Tate, Kyle Anderson, Taurean Prince or perhaps someone in the draft like Jaime Jaquez or Kobe Brown)

Jaylen - Dribbles too much, takes ill advised shots, forces drives, turns it over, not good for ball movement, not efficient enough as a shooter, not good enough defensively, not a great fit with Tatum, does not grade well with most advanced stats and for how poorly he grades with most advanced stats (and with how frequently he gets hurt, how he's had negative things to say about the city of boston), doesn't make sense to pay him the kind of money that the supermax would pay and have THAT much $ tied to just 2 players once tatum's supermax kicks in)

Pritchard - he wants to be traded. So trade him. He's replaceable, and barely played this season anyways

[Cricket23]

Brogdon for Suggs and Isaac

[Andrew McCeltic]

Would SAC send out Harrison Barnes (S&T) and Mitchell for Brogdon? Is New Orleans craving a backcourt vet to accelerate their timeline? Brogdon for Beasley seems like the best change of pace..

[Celts17Pride]

If we’re not changing the core four (or six if you now include Rob and White), the way they play has to change. And get back to being an elite defense (harder to do with the decline of Horford and Rob’s unreliability).

I actually respect what Joe was trying to do. Offense was a problem last year, so you start the year prioritizing it, hope the defense carries over and then tune it up midseason when the offense is set.

Offense (particularly crunch time execution) has been the problem every time we lost in the ECF/Finals. So I get why they prioritized it but not at the expense of last year's defense. Anyway, whatever work they did to improve the offense was stumped by a high school defense.

Late game execution is still a major problem and it starts with Tatum initiating the offense. This is not a knock on Tatum, it's a knock on the coaching philosophy. Putting Tatum at the top of the key 30 feet away from the basket is not ideal in my opinion.

The offense as a whole needs more ball and player movement.

[chrisab123]

Brogdon for Suggs and Isaac

Orlando isn't that stupid.

[playa-hater]

The Heat set up their zone 25+ feet from the basket. It’s not the spacing. It’s the Jays unable to dribble through traffic without turning it over.

and a big part of that was that the Miami Heat wasn't worried about anyone else. They could care less if Smart or Horford were shooting 3's. Yes, give Smart credit he shot well but the Heat were not worried about him.

I'm not giving the Jays a pass. Both have to get better with the handle especially Jaylen Brown but another way to handle it is put players out there that teams would have to actually worry about.

Whether you put Hauser or JJ Reddick out there, defenses know this team sucks at passing the ball and making decisions or even moving without the ball. They know JB will dribble through 3 guys and will play him to score and not as a passer. If defenses collapse on you, make the right play and move the ball. But they don’t or can’t consistently do that. This is a never-ending discussion. People complained when Semi, Romeo were the role guys. Brad upgraded to White and Brogdon. That’s still the complaint? Can’t have prime Steve Kerr and Klay Thompson to add to the roster.

This team has enough talent. With the new CBA, this is as talented as it can get. You can argue fit but maybe it’s time to think about style of play and what our stars are willing to do and commit to. And really commit to it. Where did all the early season offball movement and screening go? The ball was spraying around which led to historic shooting. Then we reverted back to pre-Ime ways. Ultimately bit us in the ass in the ECF.

So much this

[chrisab123]

and a big part of that was that the Miami Heat wasn't worried about anyone else. They could care less if Smart or Horford were shooting 3's. Yes, give Smart credit he shot well but the Heat were not worried about him.

I'm not giving the Jays a pass. Both have to get better with the handle especially Jaylen Brown but another way to handle it is put players out there that teams would have to actually worry about.

Whether you put Hauser or JJ Reddick out there, defenses know this team sucks at passing the ball and making decisions or even moving without the ball. They know JB will dribble through 3 guys and will play him to score and not as a passer. If defenses collapse on you, make the right play and move the ball. But they don’t or can’t consistently do that. This is a never-ending discussion. People complained when Semi, Romeo were the role guys. Brad upgraded to White and Brogdon. That’s still the complaint? Can’t have prime Steve Kerr and Klay Thompson to add to the roster.

This team has enough talent. With the new CBA, this is as talented as it can get. You can argue fit but maybe it’s time to think about style of play and what our stars are willing to do and commit to. And really commit to it. Where did all the early season offball movement and screening go? The ball was spraying around which led to historic shooting. Then we reverted back to pre-Ime ways. Ultimately bit us in the ass in the ECF.

So much this

They play ISO ball. Every player on this team is allowed to go 1 on 1. Its only when ISO ball doesn't work they pass, generally to someone else in 3 point range. They don't drive the ball at all. Very very easy team to guard.

[Andrew McCeltic]

No one on the team can consistently break down defenses at a high level. Smart does well but he’s not great at it. Tatum could get there but he’s not a point guard. For Jaylen it’s a glaring weakness.

Can they level up with a summer of work? Tatum showed growth to start the year. If Jaylen learns to go left and make better decisions, too, they might be good enough to win.

And they don’t have the shooting to help the Jays. Smart’s bad, White was decent this year but it could be an outlier, Brogdon was great, Hauser and Pritchard didn’t play, Horford is decent, Rob doesn’t shoot at all.

[zoyathedestroya]

Horford and Brogdon were both awful from 3 but Jays shooting 22% (11/50) on open and wide open threes in ECF was also an issue. Very little to do with how much spacing White/Smart provided (46.8%, 37/79 on open/wide open threes).

[bigfoot_cryptozoology]

FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
BSlim - SOSH

[Bar Fight]

FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
BSlim - SOSH

Rob is absolutely not a four in today's game. Dude is a complete non-threat anywhere outside of 5 feet

[Andrew McCeltic]

Smart is supposedly the heart and soul of the team, but when the team's got such an uneven heartbeat, is that overrated or would they be even less competitive without him?

Keeping Jaylen I think there's a path to get a big or a new look at point guard, but probably not both.

Offseason strategy is praying for the trade and FA stars to align..

[Curmudgeon]

Smart won't turn the ball over and will make his free throws in crunch time. Jaylen Brown will turn the ball over and won't make his free throws. He missed a critical one in game 6, but D. White bailed him out.

[Celts17Pride]

FWIW, Mike Gorman was on T&R this morning and said the team needs a new PG and C. Said Rob is a 4 and Al is too old, and that Marcus should be a backup 1/2.
BSlim - SOSH

Guess Mike Gorman and I agree. Easier said than done.

[ddb]

How about this 3 team trade:

Raptors trade: Pascal Siakam, OG Anonoby

Raptors get: Anfernee Simons, Shaedon Sharpe, Sam Hauser, #3 pick

Celtics trade: Jaylen Brown, Robert WIlliams III, Sam Hauser

Celtics get: Pascal Siakam, Jusuf Nurkic, #23 pick

Portland trades: Shaedon Sharpe, Anfernee Simons, Jusuf Nurkic, #3, #23

Portland gets: Jaylen Brown, OG Anonoby, Robert Williams III


Celtics do a little shake up while staying in contention, Raptors do a rebuild, Portland builds a contender around Dame

Nurkic stinks. Bad deal for Celts