State of the Cap?

[Smitty731]

I'll put this here rather than in the thread where Smitty's quote actually appeared.



Why not? The rules on extensions aren't easy to figure out.

Is this regarding IT? You'd need cap space to negotiate a contract extension. If cap space is going to be used on someone like Hayward, none will be left for IT or AB.

Yeah, it's re IT, but the same could be asked re AB.

So what rule stops you from agreeing in 2017 to give somebody a big raise from 2018 onward?

There would be nothing binding. They could informally agree, but neither side would be held to it. You also run the risk of the NBA intervening, because you aren't allowed to enter into informal agreements of any sort. So, it would all have to be very hush-hush.

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

It is certainly a complicated process to be sure.

[CelticFaninLBC]

Draft Fultz

Deal AB and Rozier to Philly for future picks and a trade exception. It's a tough call between Smart and AB, but AB's 3 years older, and an unrestricted free agent, whereas Boston has more control over Smart's contract. Also, Smart seems to have more defensive versatility. If they add Hayward, it seems they'll have plenty of scorers (IT, Hayward and Fultz) to supplement Smart's lack of scoring.

Keep Yabs overseas

Resign Olynyk

Roster with a few hundred thousands to spare:
Horford, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, IT
Zizic, Olynyk, Fultz, Smart, D. Jackson, 2 cap holds

Still got plenty of assets (BKN 2018 pick, MEMP 2019 pick, Philly future pick(s), Zizic, Yabs, etc.) to deal for size at the deadline.

What do you think Olynyk is going to cost...I think a team (Nets) that will offer him atleast $13 million a year. So that doesn't fit.

Probably $15 million plus per season. His cap hold is $7.735 million though, so I believe that roster would fit under the cap.

[SMTBSI]

Ok. So, what does an offseason look like where we:

- Draft Fultz
- Miss on all max-or-near-max-level FAs / trade targets
- Keep IT/AB/MS/JC for at least the start of the season

Are there any viable paths from there?

Renouncing Johnson, JJ, Zeller, Green, Young, and Mickey, while bringing in Fultz, Zizic, and Yabs, by my math, gets you just short of 20mil in cap space for 12 guys (with Nader and 2nd rounders not carrying a hold until signed):

27.734405 Horford
8.808989 Bradley
7.735034 Olynyk (RFA hold)
7.026240 Fultz (120% rookie scale)
6.796117 Crowder
6.261395 Thomas
4.956480 Brown
4.538020 Smart
2.247480 Yabusele (120% rookie scale)
1.988520 Rozier
1.645200 Zizic (120% rookie scale)
1.384750 Jackson (650k guaranteed)
0.000000 Nader
0.000000 '17MIN2nd
0.000000 '17CLE2nd
0.000000 '17LAC2nd

81.122630

101.000000 - 81.122630 =

19.877370


Thomas / Fultz / Jackson
Bradley / Smart / Rozier
Brown / Crowder / Nader
-------- / ----------- / Yabusele
Horford / Olynyk / Zizic

Ideally, a good amount of the dashes get filled in by Horford moving up, and Crowder moving down. But I still think you need at least one more name there. Does $20mil get you James Johnson from Miami (perhaps on an Amir-style short-term overpay), and Jerebko?

Thomas / Fultz / Jackson
Bradley / Smart / Rozier
Brown / Crowder / Nader
Johnson / Jerebko / Yabusele
Horford / Olynyk / Zizic

Let that team simmer over the first half, and see where you stand at the deadline. Hopefully Fultz, Zizic, and Yabs have moved up the depth chart and now you know more about who's expendable, and whether or not we're ready to head into the tax.

[radcot]

^^^Not a bad worst case scenario plan. Only quibble: I've seen enough of Jerebko and would rather take a flier on someone who might surprise us. (No clue who that might be.)

[SMTBSI]

^^^Not a bad worst case scenario plan. Only quibble: I've seen enough of Jerebko and would rather take a flier on someone who might surprise us. (No clue who that might be.)

Well, the idea is that he's just a cheap gate-keeper for Yabs/Ante. Would not expect him to play very much. I have both Yabs and Zizic as technically third on the depth chart, but, it would be pretty disappointing if that's how the season ended. Putting a vet like Jerebko there instead of another unknown, just helps to raise your floor if the kids are completely unready.

But yeah, the obvious aternative, if no JJ, is to use '17MIN2nd to fill that spot instead.

[Fencer reregistered]

Is this regarding IT? You'd need cap space to negotiate a contract extension. If cap space is going to be used on someone like Hayward, none will be left for IT or AB.

Yeah, it's re IT, but the same could be asked re AB.

So what rule stops you from agreeing in 2017 to give somebody a big raise from 2018 onward?

There would be nothing binding. They could informally agree, but neither side would be held to it. You also run the risk of the NBA intervening, because you aren't allowed to enter into informal agreements of any sort. So, it would all have to be very hush-hush.

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

It is certainly a complicated process to be sure.

There's still an unstated assumption or two here that nobody has yet spelled out.

E.g., everything you're saying makes sense if it's indeed the case that:

-- An extension allows one to renegotiate the remaining years of a contract upwards.
-- Whether or not one actually does that, the remaining years of the original contract plus the years of the extension are subject to rules that limit how much salary can be different from one year to the next.

Is THAT what's going on?

[ermocrate]

We could offer IT and Bradley the max but for 3 years instead of 4 or 5. Seems to be a happy comprimise

I think we will bea surpassing the hard cap if we offer both the max...

You only become hard capped if you do certain things:

A. Receive a player in S&T
B. Use the Bi-Annual Exception
C. Use a portion of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception equal to or greater than that of the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception.

For example, look at Cleveland. They are WAY over the Hard Cap amount ($4M over the Luxury Tax, changing to $6M for next season with the new CBA), but they are not hard capped because they didn't do any of the things that make you hard capped.

The reason for the hard cap is so teams can't push way past and use all the benefits that a Non-Taxpayer team originally gets. It tries to level the playing field to some extent.

Thanks for the explanation man...

[Smitty731]

Yeah, it's re IT, but the same could be asked re AB.

So what rule stops you from agreeing in 2017 to give somebody a big raise from 2018 onward?

There would be nothing binding. They could informally agree, but neither side would be held to it. You also run the risk of the NBA intervening, because you aren't allowed to enter into informal agreements of any sort. So, it would all have to be very hush-hush.

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

It is certainly a complicated process to be sure.

There's still an unstated assumption or two here that nobody has yet spelled out.

E.g., everything you're saying makes sense if it's indeed the case that:

-- An extension allows one to renegotiate the remaining years of a contract upwards.
-- Whether or not one actually does that, the remaining years of the original contract plus the years of the extension are subject to rules that limit how much salary can be different from one year to the next.

Is THAT what's going on?

You bump up the remaining the years and then you add years to the end. Essentially, the old contract goes away and you start again with a new one.

[VeryMuchWoke]

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

So players can qualify for a designated player veteran extension on any team, but for new contracts only the team with which the player completed their rookie scale contact can offer the "supermax". Is that correct?

[Fencer reregistered]

There would be nothing binding. They could informally agree, but neither side would be held to it. You also run the risk of the NBA intervening, because you aren't allowed to enter into informal agreements of any sort. So, it would all have to be very hush-hush.

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

It is certainly a complicated process to be sure.

There's still an unstated assumption or two here that nobody has yet spelled out.

E.g., everything you're saying makes sense if it's indeed the case that:

-- An extension allows one to renegotiate the remaining years of a contract upwards.
-- Whether or not one actually does that, the remaining years of the original contract plus the years of the extension are subject to rules that limit how much salary can be different from one year to the next.

Is THAT what's going on?

You bump up the remaining the years and then you add years to the end. Essentially, the old contract goes away and you start again with a new one.

And so you can't give the guy a huge pay raise in future years without giving him one in the current year as well. Got it.

Thanks!

[Smitty731]

This works different from the Designated Player Veteran Extension, which IT could qualify for if he makes All-NBA next year. But at that point, he would get it as a FA and it wouldn't be an extension.

So players can qualify for a designated player veteran extension on any team, but for new contracts only the team with which the player completed their rookie scale contact can offer the "supermax". Is that correct?

Yeah that was poor phrasing by me on IT.

He's not eligibile for the DPVE. You can only get that from your original team or if traded while on your Rookie Scale deal.

My bad. Being both Mom and Dad while my wife recovers from surgery is wreaking havoc with my life!

[vct33]

Is Isaiah Thomas really a max guy? I'm not a hater but I don't know if I can swallow that.

And now a mere week later I feel even more strongly about not wanting to give him max money.

[lon3lytoaster]

can someone break down the possibility of a sign and trade for Hayward that allows us to keep Olynyk?

I know traditionally teams sending out the player don't receive much if any value but would it be in our best interest to move Bradley or Crowder along with Rozier to free up money and time for Fultz and Hayward?

Does the math on that allow us to keep KO's hold and re-sign him?