Eaves: C's felt Fultz was NOT the best prospect

[sam_I_am]

This thread is very typical of Boston mentality. When a player no longer fits into your plans, you start a negativity campaign. How classy.

nah. i've been pretty consistent in questioning fultz.

It's really hard to ignore 9-22 and all the blow outs. Red used to say "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser". Danny was one of the sorest losers I've ever seen play in NBA.

[3D Chess]

I'd also consider that Ainge realizes that there isn't one guy that is going to skyrocket you to being better than GSW... If LeBron James can't do it, you're not about to draft a guy that can any time soon. To take them down you need to roll 3-4 deep with stars, so in the early days of doing that it makes sense not to get too attached to one guy when you can pick up what you consider to be a similar prospect and further flexibility and chances to add to your collection of stars. LBJ comes along once every 50 years, you can't build your team around the hope of getting one of him.

[jmr07019]

I had Fultz in a tier of his own. Really hope he's not significantly better than Jackson / Tatum or trade will be a massive failure. If whoever we draft can be as good or better and then we hit on the LAL / SAC pick the trade will be a huge success. High risk high reward move. I didn't need more anxiety in my life but Ainge just gave me a bunch.

[ryaningf]

Would be pretty wild if Ainge were right on this. My read of Fultz is that, yes, he is more of a Harden-level athlete than a Wade-level (and certainly below Wall/Westbrook)

Harden isn't the typical run-and-jump athlete you see in the NBA, but he does have one elite athletic trait - deceleration.

When I talked to Marcus Elliott of P3 Applied Sports Science last month, he was quick to mention the peculiar gifts of the Rockets star. “Harden is barely average in almost every metric we look at related to athleticism, except for deceleration metrics,” Elliott told me. “And in those he’s one of the best athletes we’ve ever measured in any sport — in soccer, football, or basketball.”

https://theringer.com/james-hardens-brilliance-is-a-two-way-mirror-b158d1bf2e22

I think Fultz may be a better vertical and lateral athlete than Harden but I'm not sure he's elite at any one thing athletically.

[tombattor]

This thread is very typical of Boston mentality. When a player no longer fits into your plans, you start a negativity campaign. How classy.

nah. i've been pretty consistent in questioning fultz.

It's really hard to ignore 9-22 and all the blow outs. Red used to say "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser". Danny was one of the sorest losers I've ever seen play in NBA.

What a quote from Red... I guess there is some point to it.

[tombattor]

This thread is very typical of Boston mentality. When a player no longer fits into your plans, you start a negativity campaign. How classy.

nah. i've been pretty consistent in questioning fultz.

Apologize if I mistook you. I haven't been keeping up with who's been on board, etc. Just seems like there was a general sentiment of Fultz being the guy, but now we have these threads saying he's not all that. Maybe everyone's been consistent and different people are being vocal in different threads.

[Fencer reregistered]

Only better drafters over Ainge's regime have been the Spurs. You freak out at any sort of decision time(draft, FA, trade deadline) without a ton of actual points to back it up while the team continues to ramp up to a top 4 team that keeps its assets so it's tough to take your opinions seriously.

Your wrong. Most of the board admits that Ainge is a good trader, but sucks at drafting. We had a thread saying Ainge had 0 stars drafted in 15 years, besides Rondo with the bad atitude. He drafts undersized guards, and players that can't shoot. They turn into role players.

I posted this in another thread but do you know how many All-Stars have been drafted in the second half of the first round in the past 10 years? Five. Just five out of 150 picks have made an All-Star team. That is the pool Ainge has been drafting from. The two guys he picked in the first half of the first round are Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart. Jaylen has shown lots of upside and Marcus Smart was a pretty good get from a pretty lousy draft class.

There were also two all-stars drafted in the second half of the first round in 2006, which I'm guessing is just outside your 10-year limit. One of them was Rondo.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

This thread is very typical of Boston mentality. When a player no longer fits into your plans, you start a negativity campaign. How classy.

nah. i've been pretty consistent in questioning fultz.

Apologize if I mistook you. I haven't been keeping up with who's been on board, etc. Just seems like there was a general sentiment of Fultz being the guy, but now we have these threads saying he's not all that. Maybe everyone's been consistent and different people are being vocal in different threads.

hey man, i was right there too for a while despite my skepticism. Then i saw some professionally broken down footage, plus character analysis, and sat with my buddy as he explained it, and my opinion was solidified.

If fultz becomes great and proves us wrong? Good for him, and good for philly.

[vct33]

Your wrong. Most of the board admits that Ainge is a good trader, but sucks at drafting. We had a thread saying Ainge had 0 stars drafted in 15 years, besides Rondo with the bad atitude. He drafts undersized guards, and players that can't shoot. They turn into role players.

I posted this in another thread but do you know how many All-Stars have been drafted in the second half of the first round in the past 10 years? Five. Just five out of 150 picks have made an All-Star team. That is the pool Ainge has been drafting from. The two guys he picked in the first half of the first round are Jaylen Brown and Marcus Smart. Jaylen has shown lots of upside and Marcus Smart was a pretty good get from a pretty lousy draft class.

There were also two all-stars drafted in the second half of the first round in 2006, which I'm guessing is just outside your 10-year limit. One of them was Rondo.

That's right. I did not go to 2006 but that means over an 11 year span, Ainge picked 14% of all the All-Stars drafted in the second half of the first round.

[Cyclical]

Ainge sucks drafting?

Why? Because he passed on Giannis? I reject this. He found Sullinger, Rondo, Jefferson after pick 15.

Ainge and the talent evaluators are fine.

I completely agree. This false narrative on this board is mind boggling. You don't call someone a bad drafter because he missed on a player who surpassed all expectations and was passed on by another 28 teams. Go back and look at the drafts, then do a re-draft arranged by how those players rank now as NBA players. Ainge's picks, more often than not, rank higher than their original spot. This is how you judge a drafter.

For a GM who got late first rounders and second rounders for the better part of his tenure here he's done a solid job.

[Novocaine]

Maybe they think he's Gay between the ears (no comments from the peanut gallery).

On-court, I think a better down comp for Fultz is Tyreke Evans. A non-elite athlete who can get you 20-5-5 but not in a way that is conducive to winning basketball. Which is weird because Danny loved Tyreke.

thats actually a perfect way of describing it

I disagree. I think best case scenario is James Harden. Gay could be a comp if he doesn't reach full potential. Even still that would be the type of player this team needs. The one player they don't need is Josh Jackson, so why Ainge is insisting on continuing to add the same type of player and neglecting offense is nuts.

He's not all that similar to Harden. Maybe he'll develop it, but he lacks Harden's talent to make his way to good shots near the rim.

Fultz is a pure PG. Probably better at passing than scoring, at least for now - the best skills based reason to pass on Fultz, the most concerning aspect of his game, is how he struggles to create separation horizontally (as opposed to releasing his jump-shot very high, a la DeRozan). He doesn't have the explosiveness or the change of pace/bag of tricks of any of those scoring guards - he likely will develop one, but for now he'll be very reliant on his jump-shot to score. He's a terrific passer already and a very advanced distributor to his age.

When his team was falling on those 10, 20 points holes at the start of the games, it wasn't because of Fultz wasn't playing winning basketball. It was because he was playing it. Most times they'd recover when he'd just start jacking up shots. I don't think it makes any sense to suggest there's something wrong with Fultz because of his team record. Fultz would come out of hte pick'n'roll with an open 2 point shot from the horns and instead of taking it, fake and then pass to a wide open corner 3 from a teammate. Then that guy would airball it (not conceptualizing it, this play actually happened). What exactly would a "winner" do?

I think a good comparison for Fultz potential ceiling is some pick'n'roll extraordinaire, like prime Deron Williams. Even Steve Nash is a better comparison than those explosive scoring wings.

[Slartibartfast]

thats actually a perfect way of describing it

I disagree. I think best case scenario is James Harden. Gay could be a comp if he doesn't reach full potential. Even still that would be the type of player this team needs. The one player they don't need is Josh Jackson, so why Ainge is insisting on continuing to add the same type of player and neglecting offense is nuts.

He's not all that similar to Harden. Maybe he'll develop it, but he lacks Harden's talent to make his way to good shots near the rim.

Fultz is a pure PG. Probably better at passing than scoring, at least for now - the best skills based reason to pass on Fultz, the most concerning aspect of his game, is how he struggles to create separation horizontally (as opposed to releasing his jump-shot very high, a la DeRozan). He doesn't have the explosiveness or the change of pace/bag of tricks of any of those scoring guards - he likely will develop one, but for now he'll be very reliant on his jump-shot to score. He's a terrific passer already and a very advanced distributor to his age.

When his team was falling on those 10, 20 points holes at the start of the games, it wasn't because of Fultz wasn't playing winning basketball. It was because he was playing it. Most times they'd recover when he'd just start jacking up shots. I don't think it makes any sense to suggest there's something wrong with Fultz because of his team record. Fultz would come out of hte pick'n'roll with an open 2 point shot from the horns and instead of taking it, fake and then pass to a wide open corner 3 from a teammate. Then that guy would airball it (not conceptualizing it, this play actually happened). What exactly would a "winner" do?

I think a good comparison for Fultz potential ceiling is some pick'n'roll extraordinaire, like prime Deron Williams. Even Steve Nash is a better comparison than those explosive scoring wings.

Agree to a significant extent - this is why I was dumbfounded by all the people saying Fultz was a 2-guard. The guy clearly likes to pass the ball and was all too happy to set up the likes of Carlos Johnson for airballs. He likes to score too (moreso than any pass-first PG like Nash), but he's not some get-on-my-back chucker. He wants to take what the defense gives him and his teammates.

I like the D-Will comp too. D-Will didn't have a great first step and relied a lot on his size and pull-up. Fultz even bigger and more athletic though with a more advanced scoring game if a looser handle.

[soxfan2003]

I disagree. I think best case scenario is James Harden. Gay could be a comp if he doesn't reach full potential. Even still that would be the type of player this team needs. The one player they don't need is Josh Jackson, so why Ainge is insisting on continuing to add the same type of player and neglecting offense is nuts.

C's offense was ranked higher than the defense last year. Cleveland tore through Celtics defense. Realistically C's are not going to beat Cavs/Warriors by just trying to outscore them. They need someone to guard Kevin Durant and challenge him all over the court in transition and halfcourt. I don't think Crowder is that guy but perhaps Josh Jackson is.

Jackson is much taller than Smart who may not even be with the team long term. He is a couple of levels up as an athlete over Crowder. More comparable to Brown but more talented from what I have seen. Also taller than Brown with probably more of an ability to create for his height. I realize he doesn't have ideal length but he can jump which helps make up for that a bit.

Now I tend to agree all things being equal which they may not be if Ainge trades for Butler, Jackson makes less sense. But if he trades for Paul George or stands pat, I won't complain at all if Ainge takes Jackson. I realize he is older but Jackson played well for a freshman at Kansas. And he entered the year as the #1 player out of high school. I don't buy the hype at all that Jackson is Leonard but I do believe he will probably be very good.

http://www.draftexpress.com/RSCI/2016/

Fultz' biggest defensive attribute was getting IT off the floor without losing shot-creation at PG.

I share your concern and others concern that this deal may mean Ainge keeping IT at a big salary. I cringe at that. I think it would be an awful move but in isolation I supported the Philly trade. Time will tell but right now I am afraid I won't like the follow-up moves.

I can make an argument about Jackson being a better prospect than Fultz but my argument on behalf of someone like Tatum is weaker.... and I'm afraid that Ainge may go in that direction.

[peachbucket]

Ainge sucks drafting?

Why? Because he passed on Giannis? I reject this. He found Sullinger, Rondo, Jefferson after pick 15.

Ainge and the talent evaluators are fine.

I completely agree. This false narrative on this board is mind boggling. You don't call someone a bad drafter because he missed on a player who surpassed all expectations and was passed on by another 28 teams. Go back and look at the drafts, then do a re-draft arranged by how those players rank now as NBA players. Ainge's picks, more often than not, rank higher than they're original spot. This is how you judge a drafter.

For a GM who got late first rounders and second rounders for the better part of his tenure here he's done a solid job.

You say solid I say mediocre. He definitely hasn't identified any post lottery hidden gems since Rondo which many teams have in that same timespan. The criticism is somewhat warranted since he was kind of renowned for his talent evaluation prior to his Celtics days and he has excelled in every other aspect of his job (especially trades).

[Gant]

In fairness, last year's draft looks like one of Danny's best, but nobody knows for sure since Zizic and Yabusele haven't played yet. (...and Nader...)

[tombattor]

In fairness, last year's draft looks like one of Danny's best, but nobody knows for sure since Zizic and Yabusele haven't played yet. (...and Nader...)

Yeah, if all goes as planned. But still, IMO Jaylen Brown holds the key to whether the draft was a success or not.

[Fencer reregistered]

You say solid I say mediocre. He definitely hasn't identified any post lottery hidden gems since Rondo which many teams have in that same timespan. The criticism is somewhat warranted since he was kind of renowned for his talent evaluation prior to his Celtics days and he has excelled in every other aspect of his job (especially trades).

Avery is rather shiny. So, in a different way, is Zizic.

And if you want to constrain the time span to leave them both out, then he hasn't had all that many picks in that period.

[Gant]

In fairness, last year's draft looks like one of Danny's best, but nobody knows for sure since Zizic and Yabusele haven't played yet. (...and Nader...)

Yeah, if all goes as planned. But still, IMO Jaylen Brown holds the key to whether the draft was a success or not.

I agree, and really like Jaylen. I hope he doesn't get shipped out in all these maneuverings.

[Andrew McCeltic]

This thread is very typical of Boston mentality. When a player no longer fits into your plans, you start a negativity campaign. How classy.

nah. i've been pretty consistent in questioning fultz.

I was against him before I was for him, to paraphrase a Massachusetts guy. Bought into the hype, and the better advocacy for him.

That is what we do as fans, as a group - now the incentive is to find Fultz' warts, so it doesn't look like Ainge traded away DRose 2.0.

I would say, based on video and inside info trickling out about workouts, etc., as an amateur, I definitely didn't feel like I knew enough to pull the trigger on a trade down - but I can imagine how our FO would.

[FlatearthZorro]

Ainge is the cockiest sob ever. One of Fultzs supposed weaknesses was defense and lack of desire to win, lead. Ainge definitely put his career on the line here. Dude's so slick, he once had an awkward moment just to see how it feels. He should be in the Dos Achis or whatever that beer was commercial.