Just Run It Back

[Triple7]

If you run it back next year, i’m pretty sure we’d have the same problems come playoff time. No post up option. No mid range scorers. No shot blockers. No cutters. Same old same old 3pt chuckfest. I won’t even care what they do in the regular season. Losing 3 home games to the orlando magic should have been a major red flag, but green teammers credit it to being bored in the regular season and playing down to opponent lol. Stevens should have gotten a legit big man to man the middle. Rob is good at help defense, and Horf is inconsistent defending the block. Those guys are really undersized against regular bigs. That’s why we got problems defending against cutters, and even small guys get offensive boards against us.

They are not too small
Both are 6'9, Tatum is 6'8-6'9
Except for the Lakers, Philly and Denver, who all have a generational talent big (Davis, Jokic and Embiid).. let's have a look at the league

The Celtics just lost to the heat, who had a starting line up of Bam (6'9) and Butler (6'7). Love was a non factor (and is 6'8)
Golden State won last year with Looney (6'9) and Wiggins (6'7)/Green (6'6)

The issue with the Celtics is guard defense, and defensive and offensive philosophy
It's about effort, bending knees, lulling the opponent into traps

It's about having a plan, not overthinking things on offense
That is why they look too rigid, and not loose and flowing
Both on offense and defense
You watch the Miami-Celtics

We blocked a lot of shots by the way..
We do have Tatum, Brown and Smart and Horford that can play in the post
Tatum and Brown are great midrange shooters

The fact is that you don't see it often not because they can't, but because they don't want to

Rob is 6’8, and Horf is 6’9 actually. I agree Bam is also at 6’9, but the guy plays in the post and have a decent jump shot. Rob can’t score on his own. Horf would rather take 3’s. The guy won’t even look at the basket at times. Plus guys like butler attacks them inside to draw fouls. We need a legit big to man the middle and bother shots and get those defensive rebounds

[Smart2Nesmith43]

I understand that running it back isn't necessarily the most exciting option but there's a decent chance that all the main contenders in the East come back significantly worse next season. So comparatively, running in place isn't the worst outcome.

The Bucks are the oldest team in the league, about to get a year older, Brook Lopez is a free agent and they just hired a rookie head coach.
The Sixers are probably losing Harden. They also hired a head coach that's notorious for running his starters into the ground even though their star is the most fragile healthwise in the NBA.
The Heat role players can't possibly play any better if the Celtics cross their paths again in the playoffs, they have two starters (Vincent and Strus) hitting free agency and Butler isn't exactly getting any younger.

The path to the Finals is still wide open. Tatum will be back better next year, he always is. Mazzulla is going to improve. If you can trade Brown, Brogdon or whomever for a better player or fit, then sure by all means, do it but staying put is a valid enough course of action that you don't have to force a trade to shake up the core just for the sake of it.

Miami will have another finals appearance under their belt and a possible title. Herro will be back and they underperformed most of the year. Middleton will be back at the beginning of the season for the Bucks. Nurse is better than Doc. So those are three teams to start that right now are arguably better than the Celtics. Depending of course on what they get for Harden in Philly. Maxey is a really good player and Embiid is the MVP. Sign FVV and trade for Siakam and Philly is right back in it. Cleveland could also be a problem now that they have another year under them.

Boston takes a hit for the coaching. Boston also takes a hit for their lack of a front court. Not that it matters really when your entire offense is crafted around 3 pointers but there is more to the game than shooting 3s. Until the team and coach figures that out they'll be on the treadmill. In order to get to the top of the conference they need to change the core.

If not then the Celtics rank anywhere from 3-5. Take your pick how you view Philly and Cleveland. But they aren't on Miami's level and they aren't on Milwaukees as of today. Who knows what the Knicks do to their roster to add to Brunson and Randle. Granted none of these teams in the conference are "elite" but neither are the Celtics.

Milwaukee had a worse offense and a worse defense than the Celtics. In the playoffs they lost earlier and in far fewer games to the exact same team. I'm not sure how that equates to them being on a higher level than the Celtics. The Sixers were worse on both ends of the floor, actually lost to the Celtics in the playoffs, are about to lose their only playmaker and suddenly they are better than the Boston. I'm not sure I follow that logic.

The Cavs melted faster than ice cubes in the summer the moment they were in the playoffs and have few assets left to upgrade their roster after the Mitchell trade. The Knicks won 10 fewer games than Boston and are letting their GM walk. Right now the Celtics have no reason to fear them.

[chrisab123]

I understand that running it back isn't necessarily the most exciting option but there's a decent chance that all the main contenders in the East come back significantly worse next season. So comparatively, running in place isn't the worst outcome.

The Bucks are the oldest team in the league, about to get a year older, Brook Lopez is a free agent and they just hired a rookie head coach.
The Sixers are probably losing Harden. They also hired a head coach that's notorious for running his starters into the ground even though their star is the most fragile healthwise in the NBA.
The Heat role players can't possibly play any better if the Celtics cross their paths again in the playoffs, they have two starters (Vincent and Strus) hitting free agency and Butler isn't exactly getting any younger.

The path to the Finals is still wide open. Tatum will be back better next year, he always is. Mazzulla is going to improve. If you can trade Brown, Brogdon or whomever for a better player or fit, then sure by all means, do it but staying put is a valid enough course of action that you don't have to force a trade to shake up the core just for the sake of it.

Miami will have another finals appearance under their belt and a possible title. Herro will be back and they underperformed most of the year. Middleton will be back at the beginning of the season for the Bucks. Nurse is better than Doc. So those are three teams to start that right now are arguably better than the Celtics. Depending of course on what they get for Harden in Philly. Maxey is a really good player and Embiid is the MVP. Sign FVV and trade for Siakam and Philly is right back in it. Cleveland could also be a problem now that they have another year under them.

Boston takes a hit for the coaching. Boston also takes a hit for their lack of a front court. Not that it matters really when your entire offense is crafted around 3 pointers but there is more to the game than shooting 3s. Until the team and coach figures that out they'll be on the treadmill. In order to get to the top of the conference they need to change the core.

If not then the Celtics rank anywhere from 3-5. Take your pick how you view Philly and Cleveland. But they aren't on Miami's level and they aren't on Milwaukees as of today. Who knows what the Knicks do to their roster to add to Brunson and Randle. Granted none of these teams in the conference are "elite" but neither are the Celtics.

Milwaukee had a worse offense and a worse defense than the Celtics. In the playoffs they lost earlier and in far fewer games to the exact same team. I'm not sure how that equates to them being on a higher level than the Celtics. The Sixers were worse on both ends of the floor, actually lost to the Celtics in the playoffs, are about to lose their only playmaker and suddenly they are better than the Boston. I'm not sure I follow that logic.

The Cavs melted faster than ice cubes in the summer the moment they were in the playoffs and have few assets left to upgrade their roster after the Mitchell trade. The Knicks won 10 fewer games than Boston and are letting their GM walk. Right now the Celtics have no reason to fear them.

Bucks losing to Miami was all about draw. If Boston had the 1 seed they would have been out first round too. Can't really use that as a knock vs the Bucks. The Philly thing I get, but they'll find someone to replace Harden. At this point, Harden is a name. Thats it. Get FVV in there and the team is better. Knicks have a good player in Brunson and Randle they could build around, but they aren't a threat right now. The regular season comes around and the Celtics probably finish 3rd. However when the playoffs begin they are very unreliable. You know they won't win a title with the core so it just becomes a question of when they get bounced.

Cavs did dominate the Celtics when they played. Specifically up front. Boston isn't interested in dominating in the paint so I guess they'll just keep giving that up. If the 3s aren't falling vs Cleveland the Cavs will eat them alive.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/nba-teams-3-point-attempts-per-game-this-season

Celtics are pretty far and above the 2nd team in 3PT attempts. The number 1 team has Steph and Klay. Coaching and lack of accountability holds this team back.

[BK_2020]

Cavs did dominate the Celtics when they played. Specifically up front. Boston isn't interested in dominating in the paint so I guess they'll just keep giving that up. If the 3s aren't falling vs Cleveland the Cavs will eat them alive.

All three losses to the Cavs came in OT. We didn't have Rob for all 3 losses and the one game we had both Rob and Horford we won handily despite the fake comeback making the score look respectable.

[chrisab123]

Cavs did dominate the Celtics when they played. Specifically up front. Boston isn't interested in dominating in the paint so I guess they'll just keep giving that up. If the 3s aren't falling vs Cleveland the Cavs will eat them alive.

All three losses to the Cavs came in OT. We didn't have Rob for all 3 losses and the one game we had both Rob and Horford we won handily despite the fake comeback making the score look respectable.

The way this staff uses Rob the result would have been worse. He's useless on this team and that sucks because just 12 months ago he was a huge piece.

[celticfan42487]

Dejounte Murray would solve a lot of problems

Yep. But only Murray for Brown would not be a good trade for us. The Hawks do that in a heartbeat.
Murray/Hunter/pick/pick swap for Brown(who agres to re-sign in his hometown).

Honestly, if we could somehow get Clint Capela I'd do it in a heart beat.

Clint can't close games due to his FT number, and he only plays about 60 games a year. But you need someone to play the other 36 mpg.

And Rob + Horford might as your C rotation next year might as well say you don't have a plan at C. That's just asking for injuries. Horford I don't THINK is going to retire because that's a lot of money to walk away from but he's 37 and shouldn't be playing significant minutes in the regular season. And Rob's body is Rob's body.

And maybe if Clint can fill in for those 36 mpg as a starter and keep our rebounding and defense sound it'll keep Rob healthy to be able to play the other 12 mpg during the rest of the year.

Then just hire a coach in that isn't a **** moron like Joe and would realize you should unleash Rob in the playoffs by the time you get to the ECF when you are lucky enough to have him healthy because honestly you might never get a healthy Rob in the playoffs again for the rest of your career.

[Hal14]

If you run it back next year, i’m pretty sure we’d have the same problems come playoff time. No post up option. No mid range scorers. No shot blockers. No cutters. Same old same old 3pt chuckfest. I won’t even care what they do in the regular season. Losing 3 home games to the orlando magic should have been a major red flag, but green teammers credit it to being bored in the regular season and playing down to opponent lol. Stevens should have gotten a legit big man to man the middle. Rob is good at help defense, and Horf is inconsistent defending the block. Those guys are really undersized against regular bigs. That’s why we got problems defending against cutters, and even small guys get offensive boards against us.

They are not too small
Both are 6'9, Tatum is 6'8-6'9
Except for the Lakers, Philly and Denver, who all have a generational talent big (Davis, Jokic and Embiid).. let's have a look at the league

The Celtics just lost to the heat, who had a starting line up of Bam (6'9) and Butler (6'7). Love was a non factor (and is 6'8)
Golden State won last year with Looney (6'9) and Wiggins (6'7)/Green (6'6)

The issue with the Celtics is guard defense, and defensive and offensive philosophy
It's about effort, bending knees, lulling the opponent into traps

It's about having a plan, not overthinking things on offense
That is why they look too rigid, and not loose and flowing
Both on offense and defense
You watch the Miami-Celtics

We blocked a lot of shots by the way..
We do have Tatum, Brown and Smart and Horford that can play in the post
Tatum and Brown are great midrange shooters

The fact is that you don't see it often not because they can't, but because they don't want to

Rob is 6’8, and Horf is 6’9 actually. I agree Bam is also at 6’9, but the guy plays in the post and have a decent jump shot. Rob can’t score on his own. Horf would rather take 3’s. The guy won’t even look at the basket at times. Plus guys like butler attacks them inside to draw fouls. We need a legit big to man the middle and bother shots and get those defensive rebounds

Sure, Rob is 6'8" but he has a 7'6" wingspan, a 40" vertical and a 9'4" standing reach. He is definitely not an undersized big.

He's the best lob threat in the league, a top 5 passing big man in the league, he's a low usage guy who does not hold onto the ball - moves it quick to keep the offense flowing, is awesome with offensive rebounds and tip outs. Great finisher in the dunker's spot.

That's why he was #1 on the team in offensive rating each of the past 2 years. His offensive rating in the 21-22 season was the highest in NBA history.

Rob is one of the best shot blockers and rebounders in the league.

[celticfan42487]

I understand that running it back isn't necessarily the most exciting option but there's a decent chance that all the main contenders in the East come back significantly worse next season. So comparatively, running in place isn't the worst outcome.

The Bucks are the oldest team in the league, about to get a year older, Brook Lopez is a free agent and they just hired a rookie head coach.
The Sixers are probably losing Harden. They also hired a head coach that's notorious for running his starters into the ground even though their star is the most fragile healthwise in the NBA.
The Heat role players can't possibly play any better if the Celtics cross their paths again in the playoffs, they have two starters (Vincent and Strus) hitting free agency and Butler isn't exactly getting any younger.

The path to the Finals is still wide open. Tatum will be back better next year, he always is. Mazzulla is going to improve. If you can trade Brown, Brogdon or whomever for a better player or fit, then sure by all means, do it but staying put is a valid enough course of action that you don't have to force a trade to shake up the core just for the sake of it.

Miami will have another finals appearance under their belt and a possible title. Herro will be back and they underperformed most of the year. Middleton will be back at the beginning of the season for the Bucks. Nurse is better than Doc. So those are three teams to start that right now are arguably better than the Celtics. Depending of course on what they get for Harden in Philly. Maxey is a really good player and Embiid is the MVP. Sign FVV and trade for Siakam and Philly is right back in it. Cleveland could also be a problem now that they have another year under them.

Boston takes a hit for the coaching. Boston also takes a hit for their lack of a front court. Not that it matters really when your entire offense is crafted around 3 pointers but there is more to the game than shooting 3s. Until the team and coach figures that out they'll be on the treadmill. In order to get to the top of the conference they need to change the core.

If not then the Celtics rank anywhere from 3-5. Take your pick how you view Philly and Cleveland. But they aren't on Miami's level and they aren't on Milwaukees as of today. Who knows what the Knicks do to their roster to add to Brunson and Randle. Granted none of these teams in the conference are "elite" but neither are the Celtics.

Milwaukee had a worse offense and a worse defense than the Celtics. In the playoffs they lost earlier and in far fewer games to the exact same team. I'm not sure how that equates to them being on a higher level than the Celtics. The Sixers were worse on both ends of the floor, actually lost to the Celtics in the playoffs, are about to lose their only playmaker and suddenly they are better than the Boston. I'm not sure I follow that logic.

The Cavs melted faster than ice cubes in the summer the moment they were in the playoffs and have few assets left to upgrade their roster after the Mitchell trade. The Knicks won 10 fewer games than Boston and are letting their GM walk. Right now the Celtics have no reason to fear them.

The Cavs you might have a point as a team with two really young players in their first real playoffs and a team having it's first go not doing well.

But MIL come on dude. They had half of a Kris Middleton and Giannis missed what 3 out of those 5 games practically due to injury?

A healthy Giannis and no Middleton just like last year would have beaten this Celtics team easily. We regressed this year from last year.

And Gannis' defensive impact in the MIA series plummet post his injury but if he was healthy I'm confident even with whatever the F Middleton they had he'd get past this Heat too. MIL was the favorite entering the post seaosn for a reason.

[Hal14]

Cavs did dominate the Celtics when they played. Specifically up front. Boston isn't interested in dominating in the paint so I guess they'll just keep giving that up. If the 3s aren't falling vs Cleveland the Cavs will eat them alive.

All three losses to the Cavs came in OT. We didn't have Rob for all 3 losses and the one game we had both Rob and Horford we won handily despite the fake comeback making the score look respectable.

The way this staff uses Rob the result would have been worse. He's useless on this team and that sucks because just 12 months ago he was a huge piece.

Has nothing to do with the way the staff uses Rob and everything to do with Rob's health.

Ime had a healthy Rob.

Mazzulla had a Rob who missed the first half of the season, then came back but we had to really watch his minutes and he clearly wasn't back to his old self, since he was coming back from his 2nd surgery on the same knee in less than a year. Plus, Rob also missed time during the 2nd half of this season with a hamstring injury.

He started to show some signs here and there during the playoffs of being back to his old self. So hopefully with a full offseason of being healthy and being able to get some rest and treatment he can possibly get back to the healthy Rob we saw in the 21-22 season.

But I would still probably try to acquire another solid big who can catch lobs, rebound and protect the rim (via trade, FA or draft) just in case.

[chrisab123]

Dejounte Murray would solve a lot of problems

Yep. But only Murray for Brown would not be a good trade for us. The Hawks do that in a heartbeat.
Murray/Hunter/pick/pick swap for Brown(who agres to re-sign in his hometown).

Honestly, if we could somehow get Clint Capela I'd do it in a heart beat.

Clint can't close games due to his FT number, and he only plays about 60 games a year. But you need someone to play the other 36 mpg.

And Rob + Horford might as your C rotation next year might as well say you don't have a plan at C. That's just asking for injuries. Horford I don't THINK is going to retire because that's a lot of money to walk away from but he's 37 and shouldn't be playing significant minutes in the regular season. And Rob's body is Rob's body.

And maybe if Clint can fill in for those 36 mpg as a starter and keep our rebounding and defense sound it'll keep Rob healthy to be able to play the other 12 mpg during the rest of the year.

Then just hire a coach in that isn't a **** moron like Joe and would realize you should unleash Rob in the playoffs by the time you get to the ECF when you are lucky enough to have him healthy because honestly you might never get a healthy Rob in the playoffs again for the rest of your career.

Capela does nothing with this coaching staff. As you mentioned he can't hit FTs and he also can't hit 3s. They aren't going to bring in a big with 3 point issues. Rob will probably be traded in the offseason. Muscala has more value to this team because of his 3 point shooting. Why do you honestly think they didn't make more of a hard run at Poetl? They only care about 3 pointers.

[celticfan42487]

Yep. But only Murray for Brown would not be a good trade for us. The Hawks do that in a heartbeat.
Murray/Hunter/pick/pick swap for Brown(who agres to re-sign in his hometown).

Honestly, if we could somehow get Clint Capela I'd do it in a heart beat.

Clint can't close games due to his FT number, and he only plays about 60 games a year. But you need someone to play the other 36 mpg.

And Rob + Horford might as your C rotation next year might as well say you don't have a plan at C. That's just asking for injuries. Horford I don't THINK is going to retire because that's a lot of money to walk away from but he's 37 and shouldn't be playing significant minutes in the regular season. And Rob's body is Rob's body.

And maybe if Clint can fill in for those 36 mpg as a starter and keep our rebounding and defense sound it'll keep Rob healthy to be able to play the other 12 mpg during the rest of the year.

Then just hire a coach in that isn't a **** moron like Joe and would realize you should unleash Rob in the playoffs by the time you get to the ECF when you are lucky enough to have him healthy because honestly you might never get a healthy Rob in the playoffs again for the rest of your career.

Capela does nothing with this coaching staff. As you mentioned he can't hit FTs and he also can't hit 3s. They aren't going to bring in a big with 3 point issues. Rob will probably be traded in the offseason. Muscala has more value to this team because of his 3 point shooting. Why do you honestly think they didn't make more of a hard run at Poetl? They only care about 3 pointers.

True, the rot of the coaching staff has to change first.

Which might mean Brad has to go as GM in order for that change to happen.

So it might all be moot in the end unless that is allowed.

[chrisab123]

All three losses to the Cavs came in OT. We didn't have Rob for all 3 losses and the one game we had both Rob and Horford we won handily despite the fake comeback making the score look respectable.

The way this staff uses Rob the result would have been worse. He's useless on this team and that sucks because just 12 months ago he was a huge piece.

Has nothing to do with the way the staff uses Rob and everything to do with Rob's health.

Ime had a healthy Rob.

Mazzulla had a Rob who missed the first half of the season, then came back but we had to really watch his minutes and he clearly wasn't back to his old self, since he was coming back from his 2nd surgery on the same knee in less than a year. Plus, Rob also missed time during the 2nd half of this season with a hamstring injury.

Again...he doesn't fit the offense. The pick and roll stuff they might jam in occasionally but he doesn't have range on his outside shot. Infact he has no outside shot. Hes a guy that would thrive in a place like Houston where the staff knows him even though that same staff also gave this team the green light on 3s. Ime can at least game plan. Something Mazzulla cannot do.

So if you're left with the same coach and you know the offense is going to be ISO ball and 3s then get people who can play ISO ball and shoot 3s.

[flintsky21]

Yep. But only Murray for Brown would not be a good trade for us. The Hawks do that in a heartbeat.
Murray/Hunter/pick/pick swap for Brown(who agres to re-sign in his hometown).

Honestly, if we could somehow get Clint Capela I'd do it in a heart beat.

Clint can't close games due to his FT number, and he only plays about 60 games a year. But you need someone to play the other 36 mpg.

And Rob + Horford might as your C rotation next year might as well say you don't have a plan at C. That's just asking for injuries. Horford I don't THINK is going to retire because that's a lot of money to walk away from but he's 37 and shouldn't be playing significant minutes in the regular season. And Rob's body is Rob's body.

And maybe if Clint can fill in for those 36 mpg as a starter and keep our rebounding and defense sound it'll keep Rob healthy to be able to play the other 12 mpg during the rest of the year.

Then just hire a coach in that isn't a **** moron like Joe and would realize you should unleash Rob in the playoffs by the time you get to the ECF when you are lucky enough to have him healthy because honestly you might never get a healthy Rob in the playoffs again for the rest of your career.

Capela does nothing with this coaching staff. As you mentioned he can't hit FTs and he also can't hit 3s. They aren't going to bring in a big with 3 point issues. Rob will probably be traded in the offseason. Muscala has more value to this team because of his 3 point shooting. Why do you honestly think they didn't make more of a hard run at Poetl? They only care about 3 pointers.

With their bigs, they actually care about two things. Either being able to shoot the 3 or be switchable into everything and protect the rim. So I'd see how Capela could be in their radar. But I wish the franchise would look beyond that instead of just pigeonholing themselves into those 2 archetypes. Imagine if we somehow landed a rookie Jokic. Would he have been allowed to develop into anything more than just a 14 mpg big off the bench just coz he isn't switchable and doesn't block shots? How would Tatum look like next to an 18ppg, well-rounded big? Perhaps we'll never know.

[zoyathedestroya]

Brad’s presscon:

[165bows]

^Haha yup. Things that stuck out: team fell back into patterns of offensive stagnancy in crunch time. Poor play at home in the playoffs. Offense and defense were very good but fell short of the goal - but he clearly indicated the offense was a bigger issue.

Also obviously felt not having the coaching staff having a full offseason to prepare was a huge issue.

[zoyathedestroya]

The Blow It All Up crowd was told to disperse and go home.

[Smart2Nesmith43]

Brad’s presscon:

I mean what do people expect ? Either Brad wants to run it back and then he has no reason to lie or he wants to shake things up and he has to pretend to be ok with running it back so he can keep his leverage during trade negociations. Either way he has to say the same thing. He was never going to step up to the mic and say: "Brown sucked in the ECF, anybody wanna trade their franchise player for him so we don't have give him the supermax ?"

[chrisab123]

Brad’s presscon:

I mean what do people expect ? Either Brad wants to run it back and then he has no reason to lie or he wants to shake things up and he has to pretend to be ok with running it back so he can keep his leverage during trade negociations. Either way he has to say the same thing. He was never going to step up to the mic and say: "Brown sucked in the ECF, anybody wanna trade their franchise player for him so we don't have give him the supermax ?"

I understand all that but holy ****...I hope they've at least learned from their mistakes over the last few years. They probably haven't but hope for the best.

[zoyathedestroya]

Brad’s presscon:

I mean what do people expect ? Either Brad wants to run it back and then he has no reason to lie or he wants to shake things up and he has to pretend to be ok with running it back so he can keep his leverage during trade negociations. Either way he has to say the same thing. He was never going to step up to the mic and say: "Brown sucked in the ECF, anybody wanna trade their franchise player for him so we don't have give him the supermax ?"

“We expect some changes.” is pretty generic and still doesn’t give away anything.

Of course he won’t say Brown sucked in the ECF. Wut.

[zoyathedestroya]

Brad’s presscon:

I mean what do people expect ? Either Brad wants to run it back and then he has no reason to lie or he wants to shake things up and he has to pretend to be ok with running it back so he can keep his leverage during trade negociations. Either way he has to say the same thing. He was never going to step up to the mic and say: "Brown sucked in the ECF, anybody wanna trade their franchise player for him so we don't have give him the supermax ?"

But to your overall point, words from a presscon mean very little.

Can wait until eve of training camp before I let out my rage for lack of change and seeming lack of urgency.