Hayward Undecided

[stitches]

I'd be ok with Boston settling for Gallinari. But it sounds like we could be the belle of the ball this July. Not trying to troll the Jazz - we went through this with Rondo, and it was tricky, tough. I was trying to complement your management - if Hayward goes east, I can see the roster potentially recovering really quickly.

The problem is that if we lose Hayward we most probably lose HIll too. That's 2 of the 3 best players on the roster, one of them an all-star. Gallo who can't stay on the floor, or Rudy Gay who doesn't have a winning season in his career cannot come anywhere close to replacing that. This is not about our management. If you take away CP3 and Jordan from the Clippers, or Wall and Beal from the Wizards or IT and Horford from the Celtics or any 2 of the top 3 players of any playoff team, this team will struggle to replace them and do it quickly. And it especially hard for a small-market team that can't even get a meeting with the top free agents. The Jazz management has done a terrific job assembling this team and surrounding Hayward and Gobert with talent, but they are no magicians to recover from that instantly.

[FlatearthZorro]

On the Basketball analogy podcast ESPN's Tim McMahon(who's their reporter for the Jazz) said Gordon Hayward "has significant concerns about playing with Isaiah Thomas".

Read on Twitter

So you really believe Hayward is a ball hog and wants the ball in his hands more than anyone else?

Also, IT played off the ball a ton in the playoffs. Not worried-- sounds like you guys are though.

I don't know, it's just a report... To me this doesn't say Hayward is a ballhog, it says Hayward doesn't want to play with one. He played with one in Trey Burke for 2(3) years and I can say he didn't like it much.

And of course we are worried. You have to be insane not be worried when your franchise player is set to take meetings with other teams.

At least get the facts straight before you make yourself look like a fool. Thomas is probably the most efficient scorer in the league. He's not a ballhog. He usually either attacks or passes the ball. He's not Westbrook. You can believe whatever you want to. We're still a better team than the Jazz. WE will be even if Hayward goes back to you. You're the 5th best team in the West if the Clippers are back together and healthy which is a big IF.

[stitches]

At least get the facts straight before you make yourself look like a fool. Thomas is probably the most efficient scorer in the league. He's not a ballhog. He usually either attacks or passes the ball. He's not Westbrook. You can believe whatever you want to. We're still a better team than the Jazz. WE will be even if Hayward goes back to you. You're the 5th best team in the West if the Clippers are back together and healthy which is a big IF.

Being an efficient player doesn't mean the player is not a ballhog. The rest is very debatable. Especially if the Jazz are healthy. the Jazz had much higher net-rating(which is the best known predictor for wins) with severely injured roster and while playing in the West.

[SparringPartner]

On the Basketball analogy podcast ESPN's Tim McMahon(who's their reporter for the Jazz) said Gordon Hayward "has significant concerns about playing with Isaiah Thomas".

Read on Twitter

Bye bye IT4

Just can't believe that report though. Did it say WHY by any chance? He's to short? He trolls us fans like a MFer? He wears a headband?

Sounds like the crap that was coming out of OKC about Durant last year. Basically local media picking up clicks


Sent from my iPad using RealGM Forums

[Fidel Sarcasmo]

There's no way IT and his wife would follow and recruit a guy that doesn't want to play with him. I could understand D'angelo Russell rooting for the lakers to take JJ but that's obvious. I'm sure GH would incredulously shake his head and laugh at the ridiculousness of this rumor. Not only that it's not true but that it makes zero sense.

[LarryBirdsFingr]

IT scores most of his points off the ball, people would notice that if they watched the games, which this guy doesn't. I would like to see the ball in IT's hands a bit less, though, which it will this year.

[OFWGKTA]

There's no way IT and his wife would follow and recruit a guy that doesn't want to play with him. I could understand D'angelo Russell rooting for the lakers to take JJ but that's obvious. I'm sure GH would incredulously shake his head and laugh at the ridiculousness of this rumor. Not only that it's not true but that it makes zero sense.

"Lol IT check out that rumor over there"

[FlatearthZorro]

At least get the facts straight before you make yourself look like a fool. Thomas is probably the most efficient scorer in the league. He's not a ballhog. He usually either attacks or passes the ball. He's not Westbrook. You can believe whatever you want to. We're still a better team than the Jazz. WE will be even if Hayward goes back to you. You're the 5th best team in the West if the Clippers are back together and healthy which is a big IF.

Being an efficient player doesn't mean the player is not a ballhog. The rest is very debatable. Especially if the Jazz are healthy. the Jazz had much higher net-rating(which is the best known predictor for wins) with severely injured roster and while playing in the West.

Our starting 5 was top 3 in players games missed. It's not debatable at all. I think both times we beat you this season Hayward played. Thomas ran circles around George Hill. I'm not trynna burst your bubble or flame you, but your team is not a championship caliber George Hill, Hayward and Gobert aren't winning you a championship, you need 2 more stars on that team. We ain't gonna either, but we got the assets to add another star, the money to sign 1 outright and we're in the East. Currently the Warriors are leaps and bounds in front of everybody as shown in the Finals.

People really underestimate how close Brad and Hayward are. Brad knows basically knows Hayward since he was like what 15? He knows his parents and family and is on a team on the rise.

It's not debatable by the way. Thomas does have a bad play here and there, but what he does on offense is literally beautiful, it's art. Go check his stats 29 pts a game on .463 from the field, .380 from 3,.910 from the FT line, 26.50 PER. You haven't watched us enough to call Thomas a ballhog, dude had a legit MVP type season with All-time stats for a guy averaging around 30. You don't have that guy on your roster. Not to mention Celtics fans and the fact that Hayward would become a huge national star if he's on the C's and a bunch of endorsement deals.

[OFWGKTA]

At least get the facts straight before you make yourself look like a fool. Thomas is probably the most efficient scorer in the league. He's not a ballhog. He usually either attacks or passes the ball. He's not Westbrook. You can believe whatever you want to. We're still a better team than the Jazz. WE will be even if Hayward goes back to you. You're the 5th best team in the West if the Clippers are back together and healthy which is a big IF.

Being an efficient player doesn't mean the player is not a ballhog. The rest is very debatable. Especially if the Jazz are healthy. the Jazz had much higher net-rating(which is the best known predictor for wins) with severely injured roster and while playing in the West.

Our starting 5 was top 3 in players games missed. It's not debatable at all. I think both times we beat you this season Hayward played. Thomas ran circles around George Hill. I'm not trynna burst your bubble or flame you, but your team is not a championship caliber George Hill, Hayward and Gobert aren't winning you a championship, you need 2 more stars on that team. We ain't gonna either, but we got the assets to add another star, the money to sign 1 outright and we're in the East. Currently the Warriors are leaps and bounds in front of everybody as shown in the Finals.

People really underestimate how close Brad and Hayward are. Brad knows basically knows Hayward since he was like what 15? He knows his parents and family and is on a team on the rise.

It's not debatable by the way. Thomas does have a bad play here and there, but what he does on offense is literally beautiful, it's art. Go check his stats 29 pts a game on .463 from the field, .380 from 3,.910 from the FT line, 26.50 PER. You haven't watched us enough to call Thomas a ballhog, dude had a legit MVP type season with All-time stats for a guy averaging around 30. You don't have that guy on your roster.

Really the only bad shots Thomas took this year were the pull up contested threes, and tbh that was probably still a better shot than what anyone else on the team could create on their own.

[stitches]

At least get the facts straight before you make yourself look like a fool. Thomas is probably the most efficient scorer in the league. He's not a ballhog. He usually either attacks or passes the ball. He's not Westbrook. You can believe whatever you want to. We're still a better team than the Jazz. WE will be even if Hayward goes back to you. You're the 5th best team in the West if the Clippers are back together and healthy which is a big IF.

Being an efficient player doesn't mean the player is not a ballhog. The rest is very debatable. Especially if the Jazz are healthy. the Jazz had much higher net-rating(which is the best known predictor for wins) with severely injured roster and while playing in the West.

Our starting 5 was top 3 in players games missed. It's not debatable at all. I think both times we beat you this season Hayward played. Thomas ran circles around George Hill. I'm not trynna burst your bubble or flame you, but your team is not a championship caliber George Hill, Hayward and Gobert aren't winning you a championship, you need 2 more stars on that team. We ain't gonna either, but we got the assets to add another star, the money to sign 1 outright and we're in the East. Currently the Warriors are leaps and bounds in front of everybody as shown in the Finals.

People really underestimate how close Brad and Hayward are. Brad knows basically knows Hayward since he was like what 15? He knows his parents and family and is on a team on the rise.

It's not debatable by the way. Thomas does have a bad play here and there, but what he does on offense is literally beautiful, it's art. Go check his stats 29 pts a game on .463 from the field, .380 from 3,.910 from the FT line, 26.50 PER. You haven't watched us enough to call Thomas a ballhog, dude had a legit MVP type season with All-time stats for a guy averaging around 30. You don't have that guy on your roster. Not to mention Celtics fans and the fact that Hayward would become a huge national star if he's on the C's and a bunch of endorsement deals.

The Jazz were the team most impacted by injury this season(and this doesn't even take into account the games where Favors played but his form was obviously subpar because he was playing injured):
https://www.mangameslost.com/end-of-2016-17-regular-season-nba-games-missed-due-to-injury-april-14-2017/

According to various analytical projections the Jazz lost 9 wins due to injury this season. Yes, the Jazz were around 60 wins team if relatively healthy.

I've watched enough to know how IT plays. I didn't call him bad player or anything. He's a tremendous offensive player(and horrendous defensive player I might add). Again - this doesn't mean he's not a ballhog. It's a style of play not a quality of play thing. I don't know why you are giving me efficiency stats. I never said he's inefficient or bad offensive player. I said he's a ballhog. And he IS!

I think you are delusional if you think Boston is any closer to being a championship contender than the Jazz right now(in the next several years). Boston has the better future assets that they might turn into players that will help contend, but for example the injured Jazz were much more competitive(still not very) vs GSW than Boston were against CLE.

[Gant]

The Jazz and Celtics were in the same tier this season- very good non-contending teams. Boston won both head to head games pretty easily. That's with Hayward on the Jazz. Put him on the Celtics and it's not close. The Celtics win near 60 or more.

Add in Brown's development. Add in Fultz. Add in Brooklyn 18, and the stashes.

Plus the Celtics are in the East with a better path to go deep into the playoffs every year. They have the Butler Bulldog Brad Stevens wild card advantage.

The Celtics are on an upward trajectory and will contend in a few years. If it's about winning, Hayward will choose Boston.

[stitches]

"Lol IT check out that rumor over there"

Ah, yes... a picture at the all-star game where everything is aimed at the players having fun means "I can't wait to play with you". Non sequitur much?

[LarryBirdsFingr]

Man the salt is already flowing from the salt lake folks.

[stitches]

The Jazz and Celtics were in the same tier this season- very good non-contending teams. Boston won both head to head games pretty easily. That's with Hayward on the Jazz. Put him on the Celtics and it's not close. The Celtics win near 60 or more.

Add in Brown's development. Add in Fultz. Add in Brooklyn 18, and the stashes.

Plus the Celtics are in the East with a better path to go deep into the playoff every year. They have the Butler Bulldog Brad Stevens wild card advantage.

The Celtics are on an upward trajectory and will contend in a few years. If it's about winning, Hayward will choose Boston.

Boston shot like... 60-55-95 in those games. It's incredibly dangerous taking small samples of hot shooting nights to be representative of how good 2 teams are compared to each other. This is very unlikely to continue over large samples.

Also when talking about upward trajectory the Jazz are on the 20-30-40-50 wins trajectory right now.

[Slartibartfast]

IT scores most of his points off the ball, people would notice that if they watched the games, which this guy doesn't. I would like to see the ball in IT's hands a bit less, though, which it will this year.

IT's off-ball scoring is still pretty IT-intensive. A lot of dribble hand-offs and give-go type plays where he is the one essentially generating the shot and just using one of the other guys (usually Horford) as a springboard.

And most of his points are still on-the ball (56% unassisted). That plus assisting on 33% of the team's makes and it becomes clear that 50%+ of the offense is the ball in IT's hands.

[stitches]

Man the salt is already flowing from the salt lake folks.

Can you expand on this?

[Gant]

The Jazz and Celtics were in the same tier this season- very good non-contending teams. Boston won both head to head games pretty easily. That's with Hayward on the Jazz. Put him on the Celtics and it's not close. The Celtics win near 60 or more.

Add in Brown's development. Add in Fultz. Add in Brooklyn 18, and the stashes.

Plus the Celtics are in the East with a better path to go deep into the playoff every year. They have the Butler Bulldog Brad Stevens wild card advantage.

The Celtics are on an upward trajectory and will contend in a few years. If it's about winning, Hayward will choose Boston.

Boston shot like... 60-55-95 in those games. It's incredibly dangerous taking small samples to be representative of how good 2 teams are compared to each other. This is very unlikely to continue over large samples.

Also when talking about upward trajectory the Jazz are on the 20-30-40-50 wins trajectory right now.

The Celtics and Jazz were fairly even this year. If Hayward switches teams the Celtics will be much better than either team was in 2016-17.

It's not close. If Hayward switches he'll be playing for a much better team than if he stays.

[OFWGKTA]

"Lol IT check out that rumor over there"

Ah, yes... a picture at the all-star game where everything is aimed at the players having fun means "I can't wait to play with you". Non sequitur much?

Insecure much?

[Tai]

Being an efficient player doesn't mean the player is not a ballhog. The rest is very debatable. Especially if the Jazz are healthy. the Jazz had much higher net-rating(which is the best known predictor for wins) with severely injured roster and while playing in the West.

Our starting 5 was top 3 in players games missed. It's not debatable at all. I think both times we beat you this season Hayward played. Thomas ran circles around George Hill. I'm not trynna burst your bubble or flame you, but your team is not a championship caliber George Hill, Hayward and Gobert aren't winning you a championship, you need 2 more stars on that team. We ain't gonna either, but we got the assets to add another star, the money to sign 1 outright and we're in the East. Currently the Warriors are leaps and bounds in front of everybody as shown in the Finals.

People really underestimate how close Brad and Hayward are. Brad knows basically knows Hayward since he was like what 15? He knows his parents and family and is on a team on the rise.

It's not debatable by the way. Thomas does have a bad play here and there, but what he does on offense is literally beautiful, it's art. Go check his stats 29 pts a game on .463 from the field, .380 from 3,.910 from the FT line, 26.50 PER. You haven't watched us enough to call Thomas a ballhog, dude had a legit MVP type season with All-time stats for a guy averaging around 30. You don't have that guy on your roster. Not to mention Celtics fans and the fact that Hayward would become a huge national star if he's on the C's and a bunch of endorsement deals.

The Jazz were the team most impacted by injury this season(and this doesn't even take into account the games where Favors played but his form was obviously subpar because he was playing injured):
https://www.mangameslost.com/end-of-2016-17-regular-season-nba-games-missed-due-to-injury-april-14-2017/

According to various analytical projections the Jazz lost 9 wins due to injury this season. Yes, the Jazz were around 60 wins team if relatively healthy.

I've watched enough to know how IT plays. I didn't call him bad player or anything. He's a tremendous offensive player(and horrendous defensive player I might add). Again - this doesn't mean he's not a ballhog. It's a style of play not a quality of play thing. I don't know why you are giving me efficiency stats. I never said he's inefficient or bad offensive player. I said he's a ballhog. And he IS!

I think you are delusional if you think Boston is any closer to being a championship contender than the Jazz right now(in the next several years). Boston has the better future assets that they might turn into players that will help contend, but for example the injured Jazz were much more competitive(still not very) vs GSW than Boston were against CLE.

I guess you gotta define "ball hog" for me then. Ball hog to me implies Isaiah won't pass to an open guy who may have a better shot, even though he's averaged 6 assists the past two years despite being 9th in 2015-2016 and 8th in 2016-2017 for most shots attempted in the league.

The thing with Westbrook is he'll more likely take the shot even though he's pretty good, but not great from range. Isaiah at least is much better from range, ballhog or not. That should easily open up shots to Hayward. Not to mention the writer in question admits the source isn't in Hayward's camp.

[stitches]

The Jazz and Celtics were in the same tier this season- very good non-contending teams. Boston won both head to head games pretty easily. That's with Hayward on the Jazz. Put him on the Celtics and it's not close. The Celtics win near 60 or more.

Add in Brown's development. Add in Fultz. Add in Brooklyn 18, and the stashes.

Plus the Celtics are in the East with a better path to go deep into the playoff every year. They have the Butler Bulldog Brad Stevens wild card advantage.

The Celtics are on an upward trajectory and will contend in a few years. If it's about winning, Hayward will choose Boston.

Boston shot like... 60-55-95 in those games. It's incredibly dangerous taking small samples to be representative of how good 2 teams are compared to each other. This is very unlikely to continue over large samples.

Also when talking about upward trajectory the Jazz are on the 20-30-40-50 wins trajectory right now.

The Celtics and Jazz were fairly even this year. If Hayward switches teams the Celtics will be much better than either team was in 2016-17.

It's not close. If Hayward switches he'll be playing for a much better team than if he stays.

If the Jazz keep being injured yes, If they have some modicum of health, I don't think Boston with Hayward is much better/if at all/ than healthy Utah with Hayward.