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"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#841 » by theman » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:46 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:http://www.thesunchronicle.com/news/local_news/outcry-after-wheaton-college-student-dons-blackface-for-halloween/article_c945c284-e0e6-57bf-b598-f2529c09ff7a.html

That’s the best treatment on it I found..


Candice Appiah, 18, said. “It was an act of arrogance and ignorance. As students of color, particularly black students, it shows us we’re not safe on campus.”


So you are afraid of this female soccer player? Why? Has she perpetrated any violence against anyone? I doubt it. But keep playing the victim card so you can remain one.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#842 » by jmr07019 » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:51 pm

OFWGKTA wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
OFWGKTA wrote:



So the Confederate flag a symbol of racism, but wearing blackface isn't?


One is the flag of an army who fought to keep slavery legal. The other is a costume.

Did you see the 2 black guys in white face dressed as Trump supporters? Hilarious. One of the best costumes I saw.



There is historical context behind the Confederate flag being racist.


There is historical context behind white people wearing black face as being racist.


There is no historical context behind black people wearing whiteface as being racist.


If there wasn't a historical context behind wearing blackface as being racist it wouldn't be a problem. Is that girl racist? I doubt it, probably just dumb.


If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#843 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:54 pm

theman wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:http://www.thesunchronicle.com/news/local_news/outcry-after-wheaton-college-student-dons-blackface-for-halloween/article_c945c284-e0e6-57bf-b598-f2529c09ff7a.html

That’s the best treatment on it I found..


Candice Appiah, 18, said. “It was an act of arrogance and ignorance. As students of color, particularly black students, it shows us we’re not safe on campus.”


So you are afraid of this female soccer player? Why? Has she perpetrated any violence against anyone? I doubt it. But keep playing the victim card so you can remain one.
Spoiler:
At your $61,000 a year private school.


Look, “safe” does get used irresponsibly by college students - but Wheaton is also a school that had fliers with racial slurs and swastikas posted on doors two years ago - it’s in the article. Being worried about being the victim of a hate crime isn’t unreasonable.

And if anyone’s abusing the concept of “safety” on college campuses lately, frankly it’s probably white women.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#844 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:55 pm

DarkAzcura wrote:[instagram][/instagram]
Slartibartfast wrote:
DarkAzcura wrote:
I don't care about Cuba's or China's politics. I am in the United States where we should all be equal. That attempted Muslim ban on specific countries was straight up racist. There were people with green cards (perfectly legal permanent residents) and visas being blocked from entry to the US after that attempted ban. Their desire for a wall on the Mexican-US border is fueled by racist ideology. No backing down from that. If we aren't wiling to calling it what it is, Republicans will continue with their awful "political viewpoints".

Yeah, most of this stuff keeps getting blocked, but it's really no thanks to a majority of Republicans who are essentially wasting our time with backwards ideology.

Also, I'm not slandering people who don't give a crap about me because I am not white. It's just truth. Sorry if it hurts for you to hear that, but that's some serious spin you got going on in your post (not really appreciating the accusation of slandering). I'm not stopping anyone from having their rights to a representative government. What a ridiculous take. I think your views on racism and xenophobia are in serious need of re-examination if you think this is all "over-dramatized." One of Trump's biggest advisers was essentially the owner of Brietbart, a source of alt-right news, aka basically white nationalism. That's who Republicans allowed to become president. I don't even want to get into Jeff Sessions. This country let a bunch of white nationalists into the White House. They just don't care about people like me. That's not over-dramatization. You need to wake up if you think minorities are "over-dramatizing" these issues. Don't belittle the issues instead.

I have no idea what it is, whether it is selfishness, ignorance, or pure evil, but something is preventing the Republican party from seriously acknowledging the race issues they have within their party. It needs to be called out on and fixed, and the other side shouldn't be told they are over-dramatizing a very real issue that hits the core of a major political party in this country. So what do you want me to say? Sure, a lot of Republicans are not inherently racist or evil, but they continue to vote in racists so how does that make them any better exactly? In some ways it is even worse.


To the bolded, which is really what this whole argument revolves around: the question with immigration policy is who is "we"?

Does everyone in the world have an equal right to be an American resident or citizen? Or do Americans share equal rights that we don't share equally with everyone else?

It's also important to parse out nationality and race, so we're not just carpet-bombing the landscape with cries of racism.

South Korea is a country where 99+% of the nation is the same race and ethnicity. It makes sense to conflate race and nation in that case.

Not so much with the modern US, which is roughly 60% non-Hispanic white, 17% Hispanic, 13% black, and 5% Asian. The pre-60s set-up of 90/10 biracial country with overwhelmingly dominant white supermajority is dead and gone. To be a modern American nationalist is very far removed from white nationalism. The American nationalists explicitly desire racial unity, even if you want to decry that unity as perpetuating the dominance of historically oppressive white culture. The white nationalists (and the black nationalists for that matter) want race war leading to either segregation or secession. Big difference.


Never really talked about American nationalism. I did talk about white nationalism. Trying to make immigration sound like anything but a race issue is just a way to make it sound nicer and less morally wrong to Republicans.

People generally don't want immigrants in this country because they fear criminals entering this country. That fear is unfounded and based completely in racist ideology. People try to cover it up with 'they will steal our jobs' but that's just BS. People don't really care when the immigrants are coming from Europe, but immigrants from Mexico and the Middle East? Bad for some reason. Why do you think so?

Immigration wasn't really the big point of my post anyway. It's really about racism in general and how it's not over-dramatized. That is just an insane thing to say. It's really belittling.


White nationalism is far less prevalent than American nationalism. You are seeing the former everywhere and the latter nowhere, which is heavily coloring your analysis.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#845 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:56 pm

jmr07019 wrote:
OFWGKTA wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
One is the flag of an army who fought to keep slavery legal. The other is a costume.

Did you see the 2 black guys in white face dressed as Trump supporters? Hilarious. One of the best costumes I saw.



There is historical context behind the Confederate flag being racist.


There is historical context behind white people wearing black face as being racist.


There is no historical context behind black people wearing whiteface as being racist.


If there wasn't a historical context behind wearing blackface as being racist it wouldn't be a problem. Is that girl racist? I doubt it, probably just dumb.


If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#846 » by DarkAzcura » Fri Nov 3, 2017 6:59 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
DarkAzcura wrote:[instagram][/instagram]
Slartibartfast wrote:
To the bolded, which is really what this whole argument revolves around: the question with immigration policy is who is "we"?

Does everyone in the world have an equal right to be an American resident or citizen? Or do Americans share equal rights that we don't share equally with everyone else?

It's also important to parse out nationality and race, so we're not just carpet-bombing the landscape with cries of racism.

South Korea is a country where 99+% of the nation is the same race and ethnicity. It makes sense to conflate race and nation in that case.

Not so much with the modern US, which is roughly 60% non-Hispanic white, 17% Hispanic, 13% black, and 5% Asian. The pre-60s set-up of 90/10 biracial country with overwhelmingly dominant white supermajority is dead and gone. To be a modern American nationalist is very far removed from white nationalism. The American nationalists explicitly desire racial unity, even if you want to decry that unity as perpetuating the dominance of historically oppressive white culture. The white nationalists (and the black nationalists for that matter) want race war leading to either segregation or secession. Big difference.


Never really talked about American nationalism. I did talk about white nationalism. Trying to make immigration sound like anything but a race issue is just a way to make it sound nicer and less morally wrong to Republicans.

People generally don't want immigrants in this country because they fear criminals entering this country. That fear is unfounded and based completely in racist ideology. People try to cover it up with 'they will steal our jobs' but that's just BS. People don't really care when the immigrants are coming from Europe, but immigrants from Mexico and the Middle East? Bad for some reason. Why do you think so?

Immigration wasn't really the big point of my post anyway. It's really about racism in general and how it's not over-dramatized. That is just an insane thing to say. It's really belittling.


White nationalism is far less prevalent than American nationalism. You are seeing the former everywhere and the latter nowhere, which is heavily coloring your analysis.


I'm seeing the former everywhere because that's what our president is. The current adminstration are basically white nationalists. A big push for them coming into power was from the alt-right movement, which is white nationalism, and Trump has had plenty of issues denouncing those movements even if he has eventually. It's like pulling teeth trying to get him to say anything negative about the alt-right.

I hope to hell you don't think Trump and his guys are simply American nationalists. They are so far from it and clearly have some racist idealogy running through them. Do you honestly disagree with that?

I also hope you don't think not wanting Muslims and Mexicans in this country is a simple case of American nationalism. It's racism.

Seems to me you are the one who is seeing a lot more American nationalism then there actually is. Not me with white nationalism. But obviously it's subjective and neither one of us can really say who is right or who is wrong about what is more prevalent between American and white nationalism. Not sure why you are speaking like it's some kind of fact that American nationalism is more prevelant (the white population dropping from 90% to 60% is not a good reason either), and I also have no idea why you are overlooking the root cause of why people don't want Muslim and Mexican immigrants in this country. Do you honestly believe that is a case of American nationalism?

This whole back and forth about American nationalism (which I never even brought up) vs white nationalism completely shades my original point. I have no idea why you are jumping down the throat of my immigration point when it was clearly not even the point of my original post. Slart, sometimes I think we just don't understand each other, lol. :D
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#847 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:11 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
OFWGKTA wrote:

There is historical context behind the Confederate flag being racist.


There is historical context behind white people wearing black face as being racist.


There is no historical context behind black people wearing whiteface as being racist.


If there wasn't a historical context behind wearing blackface as being racist it wouldn't be a problem. Is that girl racist? I doubt it, probably just dumb.


If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#848 » by jmr07019 » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:11 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
OFWGKTA wrote:

There is historical context behind the Confederate flag being racist.


There is historical context behind white people wearing black face as being racist.


There is no historical context behind black people wearing whiteface as being racist.


If there wasn't a historical context behind wearing blackface as being racist it wouldn't be a problem. Is that girl racist? I doubt it, probably just dumb.


If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Painting your face black does not mean you view blacks less worthy of respect and dignity. That's asinine. It's Halloween. People wear costumes.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#849 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:25 pm

jmr07019 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Painting your face black does not mean you view blacks less worthy of respect and dignity. That's asinine. It's Halloween. People wear costumes.


You’re viewing “blacks” as less worthy of respect because you’re ignoring their hurt, or outrage, or offense, and overriding it with “It’s Halloween.” You wouldn’t wear a Nazi uniform to a Holocaust memorial on Halloween..
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#850 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:29 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.


It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#851 » by OFWGKTA » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:30 pm

jmr07019 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Painting your face black does not mean you view blacks less worthy of respect and dignity. That's asinine. It's Halloween. People wear costumes.


I don't know anyone that owns a Confederate flag, but I'm sure there are people that do that aren't racist.


How bout that Kanye jacket he was wearing a few pages back, I would assume he's not racist against black people, but the Confederate flag on his jack is still a racist symbol.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#852 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:36 pm

DarkAzcura wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
DarkAzcura wrote:[instagram][/instagram]

Never really talked about American nationalism. I did talk about white nationalism. Trying to make immigration sound like anything but a race issue is just a way to make it sound nicer and less morally wrong to Republicans.

People generally don't want immigrants in this country because they fear criminals entering this country. That fear is unfounded and based completely in racist ideology. People try to cover it up with 'they will steal our jobs' but that's just BS. People don't really care when the immigrants are coming from Europe, but immigrants from Mexico and the Middle East? Bad for some reason. Why do you think so?

Immigration wasn't really the big point of my post anyway. It's really about racism in general and how it's not over-dramatized. That is just an insane thing to say. It's really belittling.


White nationalism is far less prevalent than American nationalism. You are seeing the former everywhere and the latter nowhere, which is heavily coloring your analysis.


I'm seeing the former everywhere because that's what our president is. The current adminstration are basically white nationalists. A big push for them coming into power was from the alt-right movement, which is white nationalism, and Trump has had plenty of issues denouncing those movements even if he has eventually. It's like pulling teeth trying to get him to say anything negative about the alt-right.

I hope to hell you don't think Trump and his guys are simply American nationalists. They are so far from it and are clearly racist.

I also hope you don't think not wanting Muslims and Mexicans in this country is a simple case of American nationalism. It's racism.

Seems to me you are the one who is seeing a lot more American nationalism then there actually is. Not me with white nationalism. But obviously it's subjective and neither one of us can really say who is right or who is wrong about what is more prevalent between American and white nationalism. Not sure why you are speaking like it's some kind of fact that American nationalism is more prevelant (the white population dropping from 90% to 60% is not a good reason either), and I also have no idea why you are overlooking the root of why people don't want Muslim and Mexican immigrants in this country. Do you honestly believe that is a case of American nationalism?


There's a lot of subjectivity here sure. But the burden of proof is on the person who is making the objective claims.

When you say this administration is "clearly" racist and white nationalist, it reminds me of everything I heard from those who were convinced Obama was an American-hating communist. Did you hear his pastor say Goddamn America? What about that Weather Underground guy he once shook hands with? What about that Freudian slip about his Muslim faith? Yadda yadda.

The people on the far right and far left of this country revile, dread and/or hate each other. As soon as a Dem politician panders to his left, everyone on the right is terrified that the people they hate and fear are going to be running the country. As soon as GOP pol goes right, it's the same in reverse. Then they get in power and very little actually changes. The ideologues usually get the AG and the SC nods (Sessions vs. Holder, Gorsuch vs. Sotomayor), Wall Street gets the Treasury, and the generals and the intelligence community hold on to the military and foreign policy.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#853 » by jmr07019 » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:37 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.


It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.


It is neither mocking nor demeaning. You are projecting your own emotions onto others
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#854 » by CavemanDoctor » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:40 pm

theman wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
theman wrote:Curt Schilling was supporting slavery.

The Confederate flag is not a symbol of racism it is a symbol of rebellion. Something the left used to embrace.


The confederate flag is a symbol of racism.


I could be wrong but if you asked people who sport the confederate flag if it is for racism or rebellion I think more would say rebellion. But I could be wrong.

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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#855 » by CavemanDoctor » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:40 pm

CavemanDoctor wrote:
theman wrote:
OFWGKTA wrote:

So you're saying there's nothing wrong with what the players are doing, right?


There is nothing illegal with what they are doing.

If the coach were to bench them for doing so, that too would be legal.

Personally, I do not find the players kneeling endearing.

Do you think a coach has the right to bench a player for kneeling? Does a team have the right to cut a player for doing so?

Do fans have the right to stop watching games, to stop buying products the player is pushing?


What is so offensive to you about the kneeling? I have yet to hear a reasonable answer to this.


^^ Still waiting for a response to this.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#856 » by Slartibartfast » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:41 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.


It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.


Why? Because you really want to hold on to the taboo?

The circumstances are so wildly different. This isn't even remotely like the mocking and demeaning of old.

She dressed up as a character from a 13-year-old mainstream movie in which two black dudes were in whiteface making good-natured, stereotypical fun of white people.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#857 » by jmr07019 » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:45 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Painting your face black does not mean you view blacks less worthy of respect and dignity. That's asinine. It's Halloween. People wear costumes.


You’re viewing “blacks” as less worthy of respect because you’re ignoring their hurt, or outrage, or offense, and overriding it with “It’s Halloween.” You wouldn’t wear a Nazi uniform to a Holocaust memorial on Halloween..


You analogy makes no sense because while Nazis are inherently evil black people are not.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#858 » by DarkAzcura » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:46 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
DarkAzcura wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
White nationalism is far less prevalent than American nationalism. You are seeing the former everywhere and the latter nowhere, which is heavily coloring your analysis.


I'm seeing the former everywhere because that's what our president is. The current adminstration are basically white nationalists. A big push for them coming into power was from the alt-right movement, which is white nationalism, and Trump has had plenty of issues denouncing those movements even if he has eventually. It's like pulling teeth trying to get him to say anything negative about the alt-right.

I hope to hell you don't think Trump and his guys are simply American nationalists. They are so far from it and are clearly racist.

I also hope you don't think not wanting Muslims and Mexicans in this country is a simple case of American nationalism. It's racism.

Seems to me you are the one who is seeing a lot more American nationalism then there actually is. Not me with white nationalism. But obviously it's subjective and neither one of us can really say who is right or who is wrong about what is more prevalent between American and white nationalism. Not sure why you are speaking like it's some kind of fact that American nationalism is more prevelant (the white population dropping from 90% to 60% is not a good reason either), and I also have no idea why you are overlooking the root of why people don't want Muslim and Mexican immigrants in this country. Do you honestly believe that is a case of American nationalism?


There's a lot of subjectivity here sure. But the burden of proof is on the person who is making the objective claims.

When you say this administration is "clearly" racist and white nationalist, it reminds me of everything I heard from those who were convinced Obama was an American-hating communist. Did you hear his pastor say Goddamn America? What about that Weather Underground guy he once shook hands with? What about that Freudian slip about his Muslim faith? Yadda yadda.

The people on the far right and far left of this country revile, dread and/or hate each other. As soon as a Dem politician panders to his left, everyone on the right is terrified that the people they hate and fear are going to be running the country. As soon as GOP pol goes right, it's the same in reverse. Then they get in power and very little actually changes. The ideologues usually get the AG and the SC nods (Sessions vs. Holder, Gorsuch vs. Sotomayor), Wall Street gets the Treasury, and the generals and the intelligence community hold on to the military and foreign policy.


I mean I completely disagree. Don't spin this into a both sides thing.

Trump has actually tried to put in place the Muslim ban. This is not subjective. It is fact. And it is racist.

Trump wants the wall to go up between Mexico and the US and one of his reasons is for safety. This is rooted in fear and racism.

These are far from subjective. It's clear as day racism and not anywhere close to your false equivalency of the far right calling Obama a communist. It's not anywhere close to being the same thing.

Most of the racist and hateful crap he tries to pull will get shot down in the courts and protested to hell and back, so yes in the end, nothing has really changed in our day to day lives, but that doesn't absolve them of anything. The fact that he is even trying to do any of this is proof that none of this is over dramatized, and none of it is subjective.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5991dcabe4b09071f69b9261

I don't know how anyone could read through these and think this is similar to the far right fear mongering about Obama. It's just so different. Trump having some racist ideology is clear as the sky is blue.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#859 » by Andrew McCeltic » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:46 pm

jmr07019 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.


It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.


It is neither mocking nor demeaning. You are projecting your own emotions onto others


They’re not my emotions - I’m listening to the people who say they feel mocked and demeaned. I don’t think it’s projection on their part, either.
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Re: "A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ Sports Ill. (NBA says Stand for Anthem) 

Post#860 » by canman1971 » Fri Nov 3, 2017 7:47 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:
If the girl(s) in blackface were acting like clowns and promoting a bunch of stereo types I would say there is a problem. A girl dressed as a black actor is not a problem. It's not racist. It's just a costume.


Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.


Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

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