"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[truth18]

Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.

Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

It's pretty much the last good comedy of its type as well. Zoolander 2 made me want to hurt myself.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Painting your face black does not mean you view blacks less worthy of respect and dignity. That's asinine. It's Halloween. People wear costumes.

You’re viewing “blacks” as less worthy of respect because you’re ignoring their hurt, or outrage, or offense, and overriding it with “It’s Halloween.” You wouldn’t wear a Nazi uniform to a Holocaust memorial on Halloween..

You analogy makes no sense because while Nazis are inherently evil black people are not.

That’s not the analogy I was making - and Nazis are as “inherently evil” as racists, which are what a white person putting on blackface evokes.

[truth18]

It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.

It is neither mocking nor demeaning. You are projecting your own emotions onto others

They’re not my emotions - I’m listening to the people who say they feel mocked and demeaned. I don’t think it’s projection on their part, either.

There's no way to really use blackface in a humorous or meta sense for a Halloween costume. It's completely different than a movie.

Spoiler:

[OFWGKTA]

Why is this complicated? Wearing blackface is one of the most disrespectful things you can do.. what you really are defending is the right not to take black Americans seriously, to see them as less worthy of respect and dignity than any other group of people.

Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

[Andrew McCeltic]

Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

It’s not just about the history of minstrelsy, there’s more to it than that - you’re locating it as something in the receding past, not the present - it’s still mocking and demeaning black people to wear blackface.

Why? Because you really want to hold on to the taboo?

The circumstances are so wildly different. This isn't even remotely like the mocking and demeaning of old.

She dressed up as a character from a 13-year-old mainstream movie in which two black dudes were in whiteface making good-natured, stereotypical fun of white people.

It’s taboo for a ton of reasons - I want to hold on to the incest taboo, too, do you have any wisdom to share on that one?

“whiteface” and blackface aren’t remotely comparable, to suggest otherwise is ridiculous. The white chick’s tribute to “White Chicks” was... to dress as a black guy? The whole reference screams “alibi”, like she got caught doing something offensive and scrambled for a reference point to contextualize it.

[truth18]

Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

Sometimes I wonder if white people truly understand that type of humor. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (though the second blackface episode is both unnecessary and a dud episode) and Blazing Saddles address some of these underlying issues as well, but maybe, ironically, they are just laughing at the surface level stuff.

[Andrew McCeltic]

Anyway don’t worry, guys, the student is going to get White Girl Immunity, she’s set

[Andrew McCeltic]

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

Sometimes I wonder if white people truly understand that type of humor. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and Blazing Saddles address some of these underlying issues as well, but maybe, ironically, they are just laughing at the surface level stuff.

Yeah some of us do and some of us don’t. It’s easy to take pleasure in a taboo being flouted..

[jmr07019]

Anyway don’t worry, guys, the student is going to get White Girl Immunity, she’s set

what do you think should be done?

[Andrew McCeltic]

It is neither mocking nor demeaning. You are projecting your own emotions onto others

They’re not my emotions - I’m listening to the people who say they feel mocked and demeaned. I don’t think it’s projection on their part, either.

There's no way to really use blackface in a humorous or meta sense for a Halloween costume. It's completely different than a movie.

Spoiler:

Yup, so much more control over the framing and tone with a movie - even “Tropic Thunder” or “White Chicks.”

But maybe someone can get an artist’s statement from the Wheaton student to see what she was going for.. maybe she wanted to raise the specter of the past to help us all realize how much we’ve left it behind.. maybe she is a future civil rights leader.. maybe, between keg stands, she said some beautiful things..

[Andrew McCeltic]

Ok, here maybe is one blackface costume you white girls like jmr could get away with that would be complicated and layered and not instantly offensive... Rachel Dolezal?

[Andrew McCeltic]

Anyway don’t worry, guys, the student is going to get White Girl Immunity, she’s set

what do you think should be done?

She’ll get the same mild disciplinary punishment anyone would, she’ll probably laugh it off as political correctness and start dating one of Mitt Romney’s sons..

I just mean the court of public opinion will spare her, because white girls are our precious angels etc.

[Captain_Caveman]

Steve Bannon has it right. In political terms, all this talk about race is a loser for the Dems. It shouldn't be, but it is. It distracts and obfuscates away from the legislative and policy discussions that are at the heart of politics.

Consider that EVERY SINGLE POSTER here is a loser in these proposed tax reforms, but many will still support them because blahblahblah nonsense.

[OFWGKTA]

Steve Bannon has it right. In political terms, all this talk about race is a loser for the Dems. It shouldn't be, but it is. It distracts and obfuscates away from the legislative and policy discussions that are at the heart of politics.

Consider that EVERY SINGLE POSTER here is a loser in these proposed tax reforms, but many will still support them because blahblahblah nonsense.

Derp you ever hear about trickle down economics bro?!?!? All those corporate tax cuts are gonna turn into more jobs and higher wages for us little people!!!!!!!

[Andrew McCeltic]

Steve Bannon has it right. In political terms, all this talk about race is a loser for the Dems. It shouldn't be, but it is. It distracts and obfuscates away from the legislative and policy discussions that are at the heart of politics.

Consider that EVERY SINGLE POSTER here is a loser in these proposed tax reforms, but many will still support them because blahblahblah nonsense.

It’s because we’ve all internalized the idea that somehow we’re like, a drag on the rich, who earned money and want to keep it without having to spoonfeed us losers basic social services.

It’s a complete abandonment of the social contract and it works because Americans all wish we were richer and feel guilty “taking” from the successful, lucky and obscenely wealthy, even though they don’t feel guilty leaving us all to twist in a looted and exploited society.

I’m convinced it’s some deep attitudinal thing, not any particular argument or ideology - or it’s the hook ideology has in our feelings.

[canman1971]

Not all taboos are created equal. Let's remember why blackface is taboo - because of minstrel shows in which white people dressed up as black people in minstrel shows that generally mocked and demeaned black people. Black people had no comparable stage or power to mock back or defend themselves.

So we look down on blackface now as a reminder of cruelty.

But the taboo has to be temporary - costume is an indispensable part of drama and putting hazmat suits around one type of costume in perpetuity is way overdoing it in the name of atoning for the past.

We rely on comedians and young people to push on taboos whose time has come. Tropic Thunder showed how it could be done. White Chicks did it from the reverse angle. I don't see how Halloween costumes are now a bridge too far.

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

Technically he "had a controversial "pigmentation alteration" surgery" which may or may not have been permanent.

[Slartibartfast]

Absolutely fabulous movie. Many people don't know that Robert Downey Jr got a Oscar nomination for that role.

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

Sometimes I wonder if white people truly understand that type of humor. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (though the second blackface episode is both unnecessary and a dud episode) and Blazing Saddles address some of these underlying issues as well, but maybe, ironically, they are just laughing at the surface level stuff.

White people wrote all of those movies and shows with the exception of Pryor's contributions to Blazing Saddles.

The worst humorous treatment I've seen on blackface was actually Spike Lee's Bamboozled

[Curmudgeon]

Steve Bannon has it right. In political terms, all this talk about race is a loser for the Dems. It shouldn't be, but it is. It distracts and obfuscates away from the legislative and policy discussions that are at the heart of politics.

Consider that EVERY SINGLE POSTER here is a loser in these proposed tax reforms, but many will still support them because blahblahblah nonsense.

It’s because we’ve all internalized the idea that somehow we’re like, a drag on the rich, who earned money and want to keep it without having to spoonfeed us losers basic social services.

It’s a complete abandonment of the social contract and it works because Americans all wish we were richer and feel guilty “taking” from the successful, lucky and obscenely wealthy, even though they don’t feel guilty leaving us all to twist in a looted and exploited society.

I’m convinced it’s some deep attitudinal thing, not any particular argument or ideology - or it’s the hook ideology has in our feelings.

That "deep attitudinal thing" is called greed.

[truth18]

You mean that movie where the actual black character was offended by the blackface?

Sometimes I wonder if white people truly understand that type of humor. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (though the second blackface episode is both unnecessary and a dud episode) and Blazing Saddles address some of these underlying issues as well, but maybe, ironically, they are just laughing at the surface level stuff.

White people wrote all of those movies and shows with the exception of Pryor's contributions to Blazing Saddles.

The worst humorous treatment I've seen on blackface was actually Spike Lee's Bamboozled

I'm talking about my friends. The consumer.

Spike Lee is an idiot that somehow made one all time classic. How that dude made Do The Right Thing is beyond me. The audience booed him at Afropunk last year, including myself.

[Slartibartfast]

Sometimes I wonder if white people truly understand that type of humor. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia (though the second blackface episode is both unnecessary and a dud episode) and Blazing Saddles address some of these underlying issues as well, but maybe, ironically, they are just laughing at the surface level stuff.

White people wrote all of those movies and shows with the exception of Pryor's contributions to Blazing Saddles.

The worst humorous treatment I've seen on blackface was actually Spike Lee's Bamboozled

I'm talking about my friends. The consumer.

Spike Lee is an idiot that somehow made one all time classic. How that dude made Do The Right Thing is beyond me. The audience booed him at Afropunk last year, including myself.

I thought Clockers was pretty good - anticipated The Wire in several ways.

But anyways, I think there's been plenty of cultural developments that should de-toxify a white person dressing up as a black person in some contexts. We had Fred Armisen dressing up as Obama for years on SNL without triggering a renaissance of minstrel shows.

There's punching down, there's sacred cow punching and then there's just straight up postmodernism. The Wheaton costume is pretty clearly the third category in my mind.