Marcus Smart is nothing special...why are yall so delusional?

Ronin00 · Post #1 » by **Ronin00** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Marketing is a powerful thing. It can make people believe ideas, buy merchandise, become addicts, and waste their time and hard earned money on materialistic wastes.

That being said, the Boston Celtics Business (not going to use the word franchise) is a business. But you see, marketers try separating this reality and would always use words like "franchise", "organization"' and "team".

Like most businesses, marketing plays a factor. In this case, the Celtics will obviously try marketing their products--which mainly are the players.

Marcus Smart is equivalent to a new product model that most businesses are. obviously going to try to market. But unlike a new phone to hit the streets, the development of Smart gives their customer (aka fans) base hope and they will do everything they can to make you believe that he is the "next celtics allstar".

But those who are not the Celtics customers and wouldn't be marketed so easily, will realize that Marcus Smart is just not that good and probably at best will be another Tony Allen. How do I know this? After numerous games of him doing nothing too great. No flashes of star material. Has he even had a 25pt game? Has he even recorded over 8assists? Over 10 rebounds?ì

If the Celts lost last night, a big reason would be because of him. He looked like garbage. Even Pressey looked better and I honestly think Pressey should be in the Dleague. Thats just sad.

Its amazing how so many of you could be so easily brainwashed in to thinking Smart is the future. Even Delonte West showed more potential when he first played with the Celts.

Smart has no shot, but apparently hes a defensive stopper, even though Orlando's Payton took him to school in the last two meetings with us.

With all that said, how many Orlando fans think Payton is there next young star? And how many other NBA fans who watched Smart play would really think hes the Celtics future? Probably not much at all.

So yes, everyone, please stop being brainwashed by marketing and getting your hopes up on this guy. He's nothing great and at best, will be as valuable as another Tony Allen.

And of course, I rather have Payton here than Smart. Would trade in a heart beat. Even if he cant shoot fts.

HeartBreakKid · Post #2 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:10 pm

A lot of people in Orlando think Payton will be their next star.

Even though a lot of people here will crap on you, what you said is pretty honest. Marcus Smart is still very young and overall hasn't had a bad rookie season, so he certainly COULD be a star. As for him being this stellar blue chip, based on his rookie season there are certainly some red flags. Overall, he has had the type of rookie season that makes it seem like he will be a decent pro at least.

He is a very good defender, we know that much. Honestly, him being the next Tony Allen isn't a bad thing. Tony Allen will end his career as one of the best perimeter players of all time, and Smart will likely become a passable spot up shooter which is something that Allen never became (if he had, he would average 30 mins a game easily).

Marcus Smart isn't a true center piece most likely, but he's a decent piece to keep around in hopes of him becoming a complimentary/robin to a better player.

As for trading him for Payton, I don't really see the point, they are relatively even as prospects I think. Peyton's shooting is worse (on top of his shooting numbers being bad like Smart, his actual jumper is very slow and needs to be re-worked), but I do think Peyton has shown more natural passing skills and he is a bit more athletic than Smart is. Either way, both guys are solid prospects, and at THIS point in their career seem like the type who can make 1 or 2 All-Star games as opposed to being a perennial type of talent.

With that being said, I don't think there are that many delusions about what Marcus Smart is. I see more hope rather than hype - hope that Smart will become a great player. I did run into homerism when I said Smart was gifted ROM over Noel, but other than that, I don't think many people on this board believe him to be a prospect on the level of say Wiggins, Embiid and Parker.

Heinsohn Truth · Post #3 » by **Heinsohn Truth** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:21 pm

I was brainwashed and didn't even know it, that's how good he is. Honestly, smart has shown an all around game. His shot is getting better all the time, so is his playmaking, his D is already great, and his hustle is nonstop. Yeah he has some ups and downs as a result of being a rookie but so what? He's playing real minutes in meaningful games and works hard. I'll take it.

laploutocratie · Post #4 » by **laploutocratie** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:27 pm

He's no star nor do I ever see him becoming one, but at #6, he wasn't the worst pick we could have made. I still maintain Young has the higher upside. The 2014 draft only had three blue chippers, and they went top three.

jfs1000d · Post #5 » by **jfs1000d** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:30 pm

Smart won't be a star until he is able to get into the lane and create a shot with his strength. Payton won't be a star until he starts actually being somewhat competent on the perimeter.

I love Payton's ability to get to the rim and pass. I love Smart's physical stature, defense, and when he learns to create better space, his scoring potential. Payton's better dribbler classic point. Smart is a more a combo guard and offensive potential.

I don't know. Why can't they both be good? Neither is going to be a HOF.

HeartBreakKid · Post #6 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:33 pm

To get a real grasp of what Smart can be, we need to see what he can do when he is driving to the rim. We see Smart play off ball too much to get a real handle of his potential.

If I had to guess, we will likely start seeing Smart attack the rim next year.

DarkAzcura · Post #7 » by **DarkAzcura** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:49 pm

Who is brainwashing anybody? The guy is barely hyped up at all. He's never in the rookie ladders and is barely talked about in general. People acknowledge that they love him for everything he does off of the stat line, and he has potential to do a lot more. He looked bad in the second half, but I hope you realize the Orlando coach took Payton out of the game in the first half because Smart was burning him to the rim for three straight plays. You want to trade Smart for Payton. Did you see what happened in that 4th quarter when they played off of him and dared him to shoot? I loved Rondo, but I don't want another Rondo. Payton's release is all over the place. Maybe he'll improve his shot, but Rondo couldn't even improve it enough to make people play up on him, and his release looked 5x better.

It annoys me to no end when some people can't see a player's impact off of the stat sheet. Olynyk and Smart are prime examples of this. There is a reason those two are some of our leaders in +/- despite not having the craziest raw stats. Olynyk frees up so many of our players on the offensive end and has a huge impact on the offensive side of the ball without even shooting. Marcus Smart will get burned one on one because ALL POINT GUARDS DO. The defensive capability of Smart isn't him shutting down a guard. That's nearly impossible in the NBA. The defensive quality of Smart comes with everything he does help wise. His double teams are insane at times. Did you see Smart completely scare Zach Randolph off the block the other night when he came to double team? Where is that in the stat sheet? That's where Smart is completely ahead of the curve in only his rookie year. His defensive intelligence is off the charts for a rookie.

Ronin00 wrote:But those who are not the Celtics customers and wouldn't be marketed so easily, will realize that Marcus Smart is just not that good and probably at best will be another Tony Allen. How do I know this? After numerous games of him doing nothing too great. No flashes of star material. Has he even had a 25pt game? Has he even recorded over 8assists? Over 10 rebounds?ì

Based on your post, it seems like you are a typical box score hunter anyways with no ability to even judge intangibles. Anyway just to humor you, Smart logged a 23 point game in Washington in December in a triple overtime back and forth because of Smart primarily. He logged a 9 assist game in February against Miami. A couple days later he posted a 9 assist, 10 rebound game against Denver. The next night he posted an 8 assist, 7 rebound game. There is a reason he won rookie of the month you know. I see all of those games meet your criteria. Does he have star potential now? Or are you going to move the goalposts?

humblebum · Post #8 » by **humblebum** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:55 pm

Smart is already playing much more aggressively, now he just needs to learn what to do once he gets in the teeth of the defense. But defensively, he's already Tony Allen esque. It's a learning process for Smart, but with Payton you're right back where you were with Rondo in that you are held captive to a certain style.

It goes under the radar but there were a ton of awkward moments for the Magic last night and it's caused by the lack of spacing you get with Payton. All of these guys play their lives next to people who want to shoot the ball. Guys like Rondo and Payton are complete odd balls, guys who are dominant with the ball and terrible off the ball. Sure Payton can score from 5 feet and in. Outside of that he's scrub level.

Smart is working on building a complete game on both ends. He doesn't have an area of his game (like Payton's ability to dribble drive) that he can lean on offensively, so he's had to play a lot of catch and shoot. He'll find his rhythm and groove over time offensively. Once he does that... I don't think this conversation will even be close. Smart is a vastly superior prospect.

DarkAzcura · Post #9 » by **DarkAzcura** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:05 pm

Anyway I've noticed a lot of people who dislike Smart (not on this forum..other Celtic forums) tend to compare him to Tony Allen. First of all, it wouldn't be the end of the world if Smart was Tony Allen because he is the best defensive wing in the league. Second of all, their games are nothing alike. Like whatsoever. Tony Allen had a great first step with an erratic handle. Smart's first step is so-so but his handle is steady. If he learns/becomes more confident to drive in the NBA, it will be because he bodies people and knows how to pick his spots.

Tony Allen's jumpshot was and is completely broken. All this hubbub about Smart having no shot is very odd. He is shooting 32% from the 3PT line on 4 attempts per game. That's actually respectable for a rookie. He even had a 2 month streak of shooting 40% from the 3PT line on high volume. He clearly has already put a ton of work into his shot so the work ethic is there. I question your evaluation if you see any kind of similarities between these players because of how different they play offensively.

bbd24 · Post #10 » by **bbd24** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:09 pm

I wouldn't grade Marcus Smart as a finished product when he just turned 21 years of age. Sky is the limit, and he's getting some great minutes right now. He may be nothing special when it's all said and done, but EVERY team can use his defense right now. EVERY team. And that's at age 21.

What happens in 3-5 years when he has put in the work ?

Quit grading guys like Smart, Sullinger, & Olynyk as finished products. It will come back and bite you in the man parts.

15th overall · Post #11 » by **15th overall** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:10 pm

Mr. Pitino makes a strawman.

Powe-Fessional · Post #12 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:11 pm

Ronin00 wrote:But those who are not the Celtics customers and wouldn't be marketed so easily, will realize that Marcus Smart is just not that good and probably at best will be another Tony Allen. How do I know this? After numerous games of him doing nothing too great. No flashes of star material. Has he even had a 25pt game? Has he even recorded over 8assists? Over 10 rebounds?ì

25 points? Nope. Had 23 though 12/8/14 against the Wizards on 7-14 shooting. I'm not looking for him to score 20 a game right now (although doing it is great - I can really get behind it). He doesn't shoot enough to score 20 a game. What I like is in February he scored 10+ points in 7-of-11 games. That's the kind of impact I expect from a top-6 pick when it comes to scoring.

Over 8 assists? Yes, once. He had 9 on 2/1/15 against Miami. Has had 8 twice and 7 twice. He's a better passer than he gets credit for. You have to understand that sometimes, even when you make a good pass, people miss the shot. Tyler Zeller has killed a couple of assists totals for a lot of people over the past couple of games, just as an example.

Over 10 rebounds? Nope, but he had 10 against Denver on 2/4/15 (along with 8 assists). He's not going to have many 10 rebound games as a guard, so asking him to do it multiple times as a rookie is a little unreasonable. Considering none of the rookies are averaging more than 8 a game I think you need to temper your rebounding expectations.

Ronin00 wrote:Smart has no shot, but apparently hes a defensive stopper, even though Orlando's Payton took him to school in the last two meetings with us.

People, like myself, are high on Marcus because he has one elite level trait at 21 years old: defense. The word "apparently" here tells me you aren't really watching the games. He's the best defensive player on the team by a significant margin. I didn't see the game last night, but I can tell you Marcus Smart wasn't responsible for Payton defensively against the Magic the other day. He was lined up with Oladipo and did a pretty decent job considering he plays help defense all over the floor. In an age of dominant PG's it's nice to have one that can stop them.

The biggest thing I like about Marcus is he finds a way to impact a game without scoring. As he gets more comfortable with NBA spacing and defenses he'll get a little bit better. Tightening up his handle is what's holding him back the most right now IMO. You can see that Marcus has a better understanding of when to attack the paint, but can't always get there because his dribble trips him up.

Celtics fans are excited because worst case scenario they have another Tony Allen. At best? A pesky combo guard who can knock down open shots, cover 3 or 4 positions defensively, and has a knack at succeeding in crunch time.

KGboss · Post #13 » by **KGboss** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:12 pm

Lots of holes in your analysis. This is a topic that goes round and round on the merry go round. Smarts offense is comparable to a rookie guard. Based on what I saw of Payton I would say he's a worse shooter than rondo and his only game is to drive. At least Smart has been an OK shooter for a rookie and has been finding his confidence over the last 5 or 6 weeks in the lane he just needs to attempt more drives now in a game.

I'm not even close to where you think he may or may not be and I think that's telling in itself. He's a rookie and you saying what's what is like a fart in the wind at this point in his career.

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truth18 · Post #14 » by **truth18** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:13 pm

Silly Ronin. I'll help you out.

Realgm hype does not represent real life in anyway, at least on the Cs forum.

Also. You are wrong. Most Orlando fans on their forum think he will become a star. Go read some threads there. Good player, great potential, same as smart.

Also wtf are Pistons fans named after Lebron lurking our forum for?

tfribs45 · Post #15 » by **tfribs45** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:35 pm

Marcus does a lot more then the stats show. He's pretty mature for a rookie and his defensive game is well above your average guards in the NBA. He def needs to work on going to the rim , but his game will never be flashy. Hence why fans outside of the C's, see nothing special. Watch the Celtics games and you'll see what the kid brings....He will be a winner. On the other hand Payton looks like the real deal offensively, the rest of his game is still questionable. Many guards fade away in this league if they can't defend. To be continued.

Bill Lumbergh · Post #16 » by **Bill Lumbergh** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:35 pm

I don't know about all the hype business. Unrealistic expectations for him mostly are seen on Celts boards. My impression, he's a good defender against all but those who have a big quickness edge on him. Those guys, however, seem to get by him pretty easily. On the whole, a fine defender. Offensively, I think he's a subpar shooter. His main problem, though, is that he can't seem to beat anybody off the dribble, and that has everything to do with quickness, or lack thereof. He'll get more savvy over the years, his offense will be more polished, so his efficiency will be improved, but he's not going to get quicker, so he'll never be good at breaking down defenses and creating. Payton is way better than him at that. Of the two, Payton's ceiling is a good deal higher than Smart's, for my money. I'd trade Smart for Payton in a second. Payton's main issue is shooting, which is usually fixable, at least to the extent that he can become merely competent at it. His penetrating ability is exceptional, and he's a more natural passer. Payton has a bit of star potential if he can ever shoot it well enough.

I would not have picked Smart with our pick last year, but I like him okay nonetheless. TA had elite athleticism in his day. Marcus doesn't. Ultimately, he's going to be an energy, plug in for defense guy. On a good team, a reserve.

shawn unkempt · Post #17 » by **shawn unkempt** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:36 pm

Payton's good, but I'm cool with having a Rondo clone. We saw last night that he's ineffective when the defense just sags off him and dares him to shoot. I hope we never have to deal with a guy like that again.

As for Smart, he's going to be our MKG. He'll help us win games but his stats will be crap. He's not going to be a star but he's going to be a good player.

humblebum · Post #18 » by **humblebum** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:45 pm

Mencius wrote:I don't know about all the hype business. Unrealistic expectations for him mostly are seen on Celts boards. My impression, he's a good defender against all but those who have a big quickness edge on him. Those guys, however, seem to get by him pretty easily. On the whole, a fine defender. Offensively, I think he's a subpar shooter. His main problem is that he can't seem to beat anybody off the dribble, and that has everything to do with quickness, or lack thereof. He'll get more savvy over the years, his offense will be more polished, so his efficiency will be improved, but he's not going to get quicker, so he'll never be good at breaking down defenses and creating. Payton is way better than him at that. Of the two, Payton's ceiling is a good deal higher than Smart's, for my money. I'd trade Smart for Payton in a second. Payton's main issue is shooting, which is usually fixable, at least to the extent that he can become merely competent at it. His penetrating ability is exceptional, and he's a more natural passer. Payton has a bit of star potential if he can ever shoot it well enough.

I would not have picked Smart with our pick last year, but I like him okay nonetheless. TA had elite athleticism in his day. Marcus doesn't. Ultimately, he's going to be an energy, plug in for defense guy. On a good team, a reserve.

Smart can absolutely improve his quickness. He's NBA ready from a strength standpoint, but I doubt his body fat % is where it needs to be at 21 years old. He needs to slim up and improve his quickness/agility, a much more easy task than what Payton is going to have to do in terms of learning how to shoot a basketball.

Frankly, I don't think it's close whatsoever. Smart will be twice as good of a player once the dust settles here. I think Payton will show his ceiling sooner than later and his potential will flame out on the alter of "he can't shoot". Smart will keep adding pieces to his game, but what you have with Marcus are all the bare essentials of a big time impact player.

He's got the size, toughness, unselfishness and BBIQ. There is no part of his game that is "completely" broken like we've seen from Tony, Elfrid or Rajon.

Scalamental · Post #19 » by **Scalamental** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:49 pm

Smart can hit the three, plays great defense and hustles. Has a decent handle, makes decent decisions with the ball and I've seen him take a leadership role with the team. Last night was a bad night to judge. He looked a lot better in the grizz game, played solid d all night and then a clutch basket at the end. Dude's still a rookie. That 2014 draft was pretty bad. So he may not be what you expected as a 6th pick, but the kid can play, that's for sure.

Powe-Fessional · Post #20 » by **Powe-Fessional** » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:54 pm

ESPN Stats & Info
Marcus Smart's lane agility time of 10.82 is faster than John Wall (10.84), Russell Westbrook (10.98) and Chris Paul (11.09)
1:09 PM - 16 May 2014

I think people lose sight of the fact that Marcus is actually very fast. I know it's hard to see on offense when he has the ball in his hands. His handle is what holds him back right now. But watch him make full speed cuts off the ball and you'll appreciate his speed more. The place where his speed shows up the most is on the defensive end. Pay attention tonight to his help defense and how quickly he closes out on shooters. THAT is where his straight line speed comes into play. He's not going to be John Wall, but he's definitely faster than most people give him credit for.