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SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30

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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#41 » by Kolkmania » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:53 am

Theocy wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
akhan786 wrote:Which is why Kyrie had to leave. People can't mentally separate how good he is from Lebron because most people didn't watch the Cavs until Bron came back.

There aren't 5 players in the league I'd rather have in the Finals let alone 20.


LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Paul George, John Wall, Gordon Hayward and Anthony Davis are the names on top of my head.

Can't imagine that the consensus here thinks that Kyrie is better than the list above right now(!), again the emphasis on right now, not multiple years from now.

There are debatable ones like Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Klay Thompson and Rudy Gobert who I personally value higher, two-way players who have value on both sides on the court. Next is a whole crop of PG's who are really similar in their offensive impact (Irving, Thomas, Lowry, Lillard, Walker) and other one-way players (Cousins, Jokic and KAT).



you really value Gasol Klay and Gobert higher than irving? Really? I get that you are trying to make a point about players liike Leonard and Anthony Davis but REALLY?


Those guys are listed in the "debatable" category and also dependent on the situation. Klay's ability to defend 1 through 3, with his ability to shoot the ball is so so valuable next to a primary initiator like Curry and James. As the primary option I obviously prefer Kyrie over Klay.

Gobert gets drastically underrated, he's the best rim protector in the league which limits the points allowed in the paint (the most efficient shot in basketball) and above all he's a really good and smart passer with great coordination to finish around the basket. Yeah I do think I'll choose Gobert over Kyrie in isolation.

My point is that Kyrie is an incredibly talented player, but he's sort of in the 15-25 range to me, with all those players being incredibly close in terms of value. That said, Irving is still 25 years old, so he has all the time to improve, but that's not the point. Theocy stated that he couldn't list 5 players in the league he'd rather have in the Finals, I find that idiotic.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#42 » by Kolkmania » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:56 am

Froob wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
akhan786 wrote:Which is why Kyrie had to leave. People can't mentally separate how good he is from Lebron because most people didn't watch the Cavs until Bron came back.

There aren't 5 players in the league I'd rather have in the Finals let alone 20.


LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Paul George, John Wall, Gordon Hayward and Anthony Davis are the names on top of my head.

Can't imagine that the consensus here thinks that Kyrie is better than the list above right now(!), again the emphasis on right now, not multiple years from now.

There are debatable ones like Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Klay Thompson and Rudy Gobert who I personally value higher, two-way players who have value on both sides on the court. Next is a whole crop of PG's who are really similar in their offensive impact (Irving, Thomas, Lowry, Lillard, Walker) and other one-way players (Cousins, Jokic and KAT).

Wall is so overrated, he sucked at end of games in the playoffs.


Yeah I hesitated by listing Wall in that list, might as well be in the PG crop. Reason I placed him there is he did show that he's capable of having an impact on the defensive end, a thing he got worse at last year(s).
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#43 » by London2Boston » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:04 pm

Kolkmania wrote:
Theocy wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Paul George, John Wall, Gordon Hayward and Anthony Davis are the names on top of my head.

Can't imagine that the consensus here thinks that Kyrie is better than the list above right now(!), again the emphasis on right now, not multiple years from now.

There are debatable ones like Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Klay Thompson and Rudy Gobert who I personally value higher, two-way players who have value on both sides on the court. Next is a whole crop of PG's who are really similar in their offensive impact (Irving, Thomas, Lowry, Lillard, Walker) and other one-way players (Cousins, Jokic and KAT).



you really value Gasol Klay and Gobert higher than irving? Really? I get that you are trying to make a point about players liike Leonard and Anthony Davis but REALLY?


Those guys are listed in the "debatable" category and also dependent on the situation. Klay's ability to defend 1 through 3, with his ability to shoot the ball is so so valuable next to a primary initiator like Curry and James. As the primary option I obviously prefer Kyrie over Klay.

Gobert gets drastically underrated, he's the best rim protector in the league which limits the points allowed in the paint (the most efficient shot in basketball) and above all he's a really good and smart passer with great coordination to finish around the basket. Yeah I do think I'll choose Gobert over Kyrie in isolation.

My point is that Kyrie is an incredibly talented player, but he's sort of in the 15-25 range to me, with all those players being incredibly close in terms of value. That said, Irving is still 25 years old, so he has all the time to improve, but that's not the point. Theocy stated that he couldn't list 5 players in the league he'd rather have in the Finals, I find that idiotic.


Someone with back to back 28 and 29PPG in the NBA Finals is not outside the top 20 of players whatever way we draw it up.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#44 » by Kolkmania » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:23 pm

London2Boston wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
Theocy wrote:

you really value Gasol Klay and Gobert higher than irving? Really? I get that you are trying to make a point about players liike Leonard and Anthony Davis but REALLY?


Those guys are listed in the "debatable" category and also dependent on the situation. Klay's ability to defend 1 through 3, with his ability to shoot the ball is so so valuable next to a primary initiator like Curry and James. As the primary option I obviously prefer Kyrie over Klay.

Gobert gets drastically underrated, he's the best rim protector in the league which limits the points allowed in the paint (the most efficient shot in basketball) and above all he's a really good and smart passer with great coordination to finish around the basket. Yeah I do think I'll choose Gobert over Kyrie in isolation.

My point is that Kyrie is an incredibly talented player, but he's sort of in the 15-25 range to me, with all those players being incredibly close in terms of value. That said, Irving is still 25 years old, so he has all the time to improve, but that's not the point. Theocy stated that he couldn't list 5 players in the league he'd rather have in the Finals, I find that idiotic.


Someone with back to back 28 and 29PPG in the NBA Finals is not outside the top 20 of players whatever way we draw it up.

There are barely 20 unique players in the last 3 NBA Finals, so if PPG in the Finals is the criteria I guess it's valid indeed.

btw I never said that Kyrie falls out of my top 20, I said that him being in the top 5 is idiotic.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#45 » by ermocrate » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:06 pm

Wait, it's not that thing with chicks in bathsuit? I think it's a white male masturbation heaven, nothing more. What does "Slam" says? I think thay would put Kyrie at 10th and GH around 245.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#46 » by ermocrate » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:16 pm

Lillard, Lowry and Conley are not better player than Kyrie, Wall it's debatable, Kyrie should be near the 10th. I can't find the top 10 anywhere.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#47 » by Patsfan1081 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:56 pm

Well at least this list is somewhat better than ESPN, I can't see how both Thomas and Irving drop back when they're coming off career years. Gasol was twenty spots higher than Horford despite near identical stats.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#48 » by OFWGKTA » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:18 pm

IT, Lillard, and Kyrie are all basically in the same tier. I have Wall below all three cause I think he's super overrated, then Conley, then Lowry since he's trash in the playoffs.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#49 » by VeryMuchWoke » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:26 pm

ESPNs 11-30 is laughable. They have Porzingis ahead of Kyrie.

Gobert is extremely overrated. He fantastic in 8/10 matchups but he'll kill you in the other 2. We spread him out and make him look stupid.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#50 » by PierceFan4ever » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:49 pm

iTalkToTheLord wrote:ESPNs 11-30 is laughable. They have Porzingis ahead of Kyrie.

Gobert is extremely overrated. He fantastic in 8/10 matchups but he'll kill you in the other 2. We spread him out and make him look stupid.



Guranteed if he was playing next to Lebron he would be listed closer to 10 :lol: Espn is a joke, they moved Crowder like 30 spots coming off a worse a year because he's playing with Lebron now. And John Wall is someone who I find somewhat overrated, look at his 2nd half of game 7 against the Celtics.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#51 » by OFWGKTA » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:17 pm

PierceFan4ever wrote:
iTalkToTheLord wrote:ESPNs 11-30 is laughable. They have Porzingis ahead of Kyrie.

Gobert is extremely overrated. He fantastic in 8/10 matchups but he'll kill you in the other 2. We spread him out and make him look stupid.



Guranteed if he was playing next to Lebron he would be listed closer to 10 :lol: Espn is a joke, they moved Crowder like 30 spots coming off a worse a year because he's playing with Lebron now. And John Wall is someone who I find somewhat overrated, look at his 2nd half of game 7 against the Celtics.



Just checked, Kyrie was ranked #15 last year.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#52 » by sam_I_am » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:20 pm

iTalkToTheLord wrote:ESPNs 11-30 is laughable. They have Porzingis ahead of Kyrie.

Gobert is extremely overrated. He fantastic in 8/10 matchups but he'll kill you in the other 2. We spread him out and make him look stupid.


They have Lonzo Ball ranked 63 ahead of Melo. Devin Booker ranked 60. DJ Smith 75. Tatum and Brown dont crack top 100.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#53 » by dreamscape » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:25 pm

Regardless of how (in)accurate you think these ratings are, it has to be acknowledged that Golden State is clearly the dominant team in the NBA right now with 3 players in the top 10. So quibbling over whether Jaylen Brown should be #93 or not is meaningless until Durant, Curry, or Green (and Thompson, for that matter) are beaten.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#54 » by Wes-J » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Kyrie is a top 10 guy, no doubt for me. Hayward I would go with top 25.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#55 » by VeryMuchWoke » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:00 pm

dreamscape wrote:Regardless of how (in)accurate you think these ratings are, it has to be acknowledged that Golden State is clearly the dominant team in the NBA right now with 3 players in the top 10. So quibbling over whether Jaylen Brown should be #93 or not is meaningless until Durant, Curry, or Green (and Thompson, for that matter) are beaten.


That's a good point. Jaylen Brown should be #93.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#56 » by Duke4life831 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:40 pm

So Kyrie drops 10 spots after having a career year of averaging 25/6 on 47/40/90 shooting percentages then followed that up with another great run in the playoffs and finals. Lowry was ranked 3 spots behind Kyrie last year and only dropped 3 spots to 21, so Lowry had an injury riddled season and another massive flameout in the playoffs and Kyrie drops below him? Im a big KP fan but what did he do last year to show the ESPN guys that he has passed Kyrie as a player? Ill say the same thing I said for the other list, I think 11-23 are a toss up right now in the NBA, but things like Lowry and KP being rated above Kyrie when they werent last year for ESPN makes no sense to me. What did Kyrie do to drop from 15 to 25 in ESPN's eyes?
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#57 » by SmartWentCrazy » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:00 pm

Kolkmania wrote:
akhan786 wrote:Which is why Kyrie had to leave. People can't mentally separate how good he is from Lebron because most people didn't watch the Cavs until Bron came back.

There aren't 5 players in the league I'd rather have in the Finals let alone 20.


LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Paul George, John Wall, Gordon Hayward and Anthony Davis are the names on top of my head.

Can't imagine that the consensus here thinks that Kyrie is better than the list above right now(!), again the emphasis on right now, not multiple years from now.

There are debatable ones like Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Klay Thompson and Rudy Gobert who I personally value higher, two-way players who have value on both sides on the court. Next is a whole crop of PG's who are really similar in their offensive impact (Irving, Thomas, Lowry, Lillard, Walker) and other one-way players (Cousins, Jokic and KAT).


What has Paul George done to put himself in that upper tier? He hasn't been outta the first round since he got hurt, and I wouldn't be shocked if it happened again this year. He's living off of reputation at this point.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#58 » by Kolkmania » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:30 am

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Kolkmania wrote:
akhan786 wrote:Which is why Kyrie had to leave. People can't mentally separate how good he is from Lebron because most people didn't watch the Cavs until Bron came back.

There aren't 5 players in the league I'd rather have in the Finals let alone 20.


LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Stephen Curry, James Harden, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Paul George, John Wall, Gordon Hayward and Anthony Davis are the names on top of my head.

Can't imagine that the consensus here thinks that Kyrie is better than the list above right now(!), again the emphasis on right now, not multiple years from now.

There are debatable ones like Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Klay Thompson and Rudy Gobert who I personally value higher, two-way players who have value on both sides on the court. Next is a whole crop of PG's who are really similar in their offensive impact (Irving, Thomas, Lowry, Lillard, Walker) and other one-way players (Cousins, Jokic and KAT).


What has Paul George done to put himself in that upper tier? He hasn't been outta the first round since he got hurt, and I wouldn't be shocked if it happened again this year. He's living off of reputation at this point.


I think he's in the 10-15 tier or so.

Defensive versatility, rebounding, improved playmaking as an initiator and of course his ability to score. Think he settled to much for long two-pointers this season and his defense has regressed a bit, but I'd value his two-way contribution above Kyrie's ability to score.

I'm not going to blame him for not winning against the Cavs with Lance Stephenson as main contributor of the bench and he was a beast against Toronto the year prior, shooting above 63 TS% on high volume. You can only do so much with a poorly constructed roster.
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#59 » by Theocy » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:18 am

Paul George is an excellent player. People claiming he didmt achieve much in that crappy roster in the last season are probably unaware that basketball is a team sport. You can put MJ in his prime in last years pacers i doubt they could beat the cavs. i was hoping we could get him i personally rate him above gordon (i know many people disagree) but the guy held his own against Lebron

I dont see how paul george and westbrook will work though. Isnt that extremely similar to wesbrook durant ? (With kd being more talented i guess)
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Re: SI.com Hayward #16, Irving #21, Horford #30 

Post#60 » by celticfan42487 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:58 am

This list isn't outrageous. It's about right. Hard to say exactly if they're favorting playoffs as only one element or not or just in a game tomorrow best players level.

I think they're highly overvaluing Hayward. There are 0 measures in which he isn't firmly behind Klay Thompson.

I can see arguments for Jokic and easiely Kevin Love and obviously Cousins being higher than their rankings and Kyrie. Blake being near Kyrie looks about right.

And I'd argue against Wall and Lowry. But SI's reasons are just: wether it's not leading teams in the playoffs as his own man (so regular season success), injuries, leadership (he just demanded out of a team that won 1 championship and 3 straight finals... this is far worse than what Ray Allen did to us), Irving has a very questionable injury history, Lowry had again one of the best regular season performances as the man for his team (again...didn't matter come playoff time but still)).

I don't think this is absurd.

If it makes you feel better than have Crowder ranked 44 and IT ranked 40. So their rankings suggest the Irving trade was a reasonable overpay.
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