"A Nation Divided, Sports United" ~ The Equality & Other Issues Thread

[Curmudgeon]

Not good for the racists:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/massive-leak-reveals-new-ties-between-trump-administration-and-russia-implicating-commerce-secretary-wilbur-ross-and-jared-kushner

[Captain_Caveman]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

[sam_I_am]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

You may be a little naive in thinking GOP voters in MA are moderate. Many Massachusetts and RI Republicans know exactly what they are aligning with and don’t mind at all. The GOP candidates may be moderate so they can win elections. The base may be smaller but sometimes when you are surrounded by the opposition it makes you more extreme. If you ever talk to liberals in Montana ... it’s similar.

[theman]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

Romney-care?

[theman]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

You may be a little naive in thinking GOP voters in MA are moderate. Many Massachusetts and RI Republicans know exactly what they are aligning with and don’t mind at all. The GOP candidates may be moderate so they can win elections. The base may be smaller but sometimes when you are surrounded by the opposition it makes you more extreme. If you ever talk to liberals in Montana ... it’s similar.

This is what I love about democrats. They would never presume some thing about anyone based on a single characteristic.

[Captain_Caveman]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

You may be a little naive in thinking GOP voters in MA are moderate. Many Massachusetts and RI Republicans know exactly what they are aligning with and don’t mind at all. The GOP candidates may be moderate so they can win elections. The base may be smaller but sometimes when you are surrounded by the opposition it makes you more extreme. If you ever talk to liberals in Montana ... it’s similar.

This is what I love about democrats. They would never presume some thing about anyone based on a single characteristic.

I'm not a Democrat. Never have been.

As to Romney-care, I also took care to single out MA Republicans like Mitt as not being representative of the GOP nationally.

Yes, the rightwing media brainwashing is working beyond regional boundaries on a national scale, so there are increasingly shared characteristics. But a NE Republican is still not the same thing as what you find in the rest of the country.

[Curmudgeon]

There used to be middle of the road, pragmatic Republicans in the Northeast: Lowell Weiker, Ken Keating, Jacob Javits, Ed Brooke, Margaret Chase Smith, William Cohen....

The only one left is Susan Collins. The party has been taken over by right wing ideologues

[NormanDale]

But the disassociation is something else. It goes deep into our national mythology and self-image.

I like this quote:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- Ronald Wright, A Short History of Progress

Like many generalizations, its a half truth. My grandmother who led a strike in NYC's garment center in 1920 because the toilets were clogged and the women in the sweatshop had nowhere to pee did not see herself as a temporarily embarrassed millionaire, especially after they arrested her.

I'm guessing that some of the attitude stems from the puritan ethos: if you are rich you must be better than other people because God favored you.

American literature wasn't a big part of my studies, but was some of the most illuminating in this regard. You read The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick, etc... and you realize this **** has been deeply embedded in our collective psyche the whole **** time.

Nothing has helped me understand the deeply embedded and often unexamined American attitude and values more than reading the American Transcendentalists: Emerson, Thoreaux, Whitman, etc. I think they crystallize the American point of view in many ways.

I too have learned a lot about America (and myself as an American) by reading classic American fiction. The most illuminating, in my opinion, are Huckleberry Finn (as perfect a predictor/examination of Trumpism as anything I've read) and Invisible Man.

[GordonHaywood]

Just throwing something out there that sort of sticks in my craw... New England Republicans are not *real* Republicans.

Which is actually a compliment, IMO. Nothing inherently wrong with fiscal conservatism, a belief in liberty and freedom, or whatever it is supposed to be about. But at your root, you are mostly just contrarians to the liberal Northeast. Mitt Romney, Scott Brown, Paul Cellucci and Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

But having lived all over the country, and in some deeply red places, I feel like some of you may not fully understand what you are aligning yourselves with politically, and what you future looks like if they get their way.

Anyhow, gross oversimplification, but not really.

Side note: Scott Brown is an a-hole. I hate that guy.

[NormanDale]

You may be a little naive in thinking GOP voters in MA are moderate. Many Massachusetts and RI Republicans know exactly what they are aligning with and don’t mind at all. The GOP candidates may be moderate so they can win elections. The base may be smaller but sometimes when you are surrounded by the opposition it makes you more extreme. If you ever talk to liberals in Montana ... it’s similar.

This is what I love about democrats. They would never presume some thing about anyone based on a single characteristic.

I'm not a Democrat. Never have been.

As to Romney-care, I also took care to single out MA Republicans like Mitt as not being representative of the GOP nationally.

Yes, the rightwing media brainwashing is working beyond regional boundaries on a national scale, so there are increasingly shared characteristics. But a NE Republican is still not the same thing as what you find in the rest of the country.

I'm not sure the distinction you're drawing is that cleanly geographic. That is, there are certainly people in New England--whether in Southie or in Belchertown--who subscribe to Trumpism as much as anyone anywhere else. There are also fiscal conservative "Republic Establishment" people there, just as there are in other cities and towns around the country.

I read an interesting republican voter study before the 2016 primaries. Based on focus groups, it divided Republican primary voters into three categories, which sometimes happened to overlap, but mostly didn't. The first was the fiscally-conservative group, the second the religious right, and the third the nativist-nationalist tea-party types. These voters disagree with one another on many issues, even though they are all considered part of the "Republican base."

This study said it was unclear which group had the largest number of voters, but it seemed like the last one. That was proven in the primary and in the general.

The first group is really the only one that includes any of my friends. I don't agree with them on certain things, but we can debate reasonably. This group may, in fact, be over-represented in New England, I'm not sure. Nationwide, it's unclear whether that group has any real constituency in 2017.

(Dem voters can also be broken down into similar ideological categories, by the way. Just responding to the comment on "New England Republicans.")

[truth18]

Scott Brown, Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

LOL.

Yeah, they aren't terrible like David Lee wasn't terrible.

****, we lived next to the Welds growing up (had dinner there once a year) and the man himself thought he was a bad governor. If you want some wilder Weld stories I can text you. Dude was quite the character and always hung out with us kids for long periods.

Scott Brown is a complete **** moron. I scrape him off my shoe.

I've actually met Romney too, albeit very briefly. Some years back, the Mormon church on Brattle Street was burning down. My friend called me to come check it out. I was checking it out near the fence by the Longfellow house, taking a hit of my chillum before I went down into the park where my friend was and a car door slams behind me. Romney gets out, alone, face caked in makeup (he looked like a serial killer in real life). He sees me getting high, says hello, I say hello, and he walks past me towards the fire. It was a somewhat humorous (a building was burning down next to us so that tempered things, lol) brief encounter.

[NormanDale]

****, we lived next to the Welds growing up (had dinner there once a year) and the man himself thought he was a bad governor. If you want some wilder Weld stories I can text you. Dude was quite the character and always hung out with us kids for long periods.

Yes please.

[Captain_Caveman]

This is what I love about democrats. They would never presume some thing about anyone based on a single characteristic.

I'm not a Democrat. Never have been.

As to Romney-care, I also took care to single out MA Republicans like Mitt as not being representative of the GOP nationally.

Yes, the rightwing media brainwashing is working beyond regional boundaries on a national scale, so there are increasingly shared characteristics. But a NE Republican is still not the same thing as what you find in the rest of the country.

I'm not sure the distinction you're drawing is that cleanly geographic. That is, there are certainly people in New England--whether in Southie or in Belchertown--who subscribe to Trumpism as much as anyone anywhere else. There are also fiscal conservative "Republic Establishment" people there, just as there are in other cities and towns around the country.

I read an interesting republican voter study before the 2016 primaries. Based on focus groups, it divided Republican primary voters into three categories, which sometimes happened to overlap, but mostly didn't. The first was the fiscally-conservative group, the second the religious right, and the third the nativist-nationalist tea-party types. These voters disagree with one another on many issues, even though they are all considered part of the "Republican base."

This study said it was unclear which group had the largest number of voters, but it seemed like the last one. That was proven in the primary and in the general.

The first group is really the only one that includes any of my friends. I don't agree with them on certain things, but we can debate reasonably. This group may, in fact, be over-represented in New England, I'm not sure. Nationwide, it's unclear whether that group has any real constituency in 2017.

(Dem voters can also be broken down into similar ideological categories, by the way. Just responding to the comment on "New England Republicans.")

The thing is, Trump is actually moderate by GOP standards. About 30% of the voting electorate are bat **** crazy evangelicals, and while he panders to them, Trump is not one himself. One of the things that is happening is the death of the right-center. They are under assault and dwindling in both power and numbers. To even survive, they have had to cede power to what is an increasingly far-right platform. Further, the institutions of the center-right are also being displaced. Wall Street Journal is giving way to Fox News and even Breitbart. There are no center-right schools or think tanks, and they are all being brushed aside.

NE Republicans are no doubt beginning to make this same journey rightwards, as they enclose themselves in the same right-wing media bubble to rejects science, basic economics and even truth itself, but they have a lot of ground to make up, I assure you. It’s a long road from Mitt Romney to Steve Bannon, and they are back in the pack there.

[Captain_Caveman]

Scott Brown, Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

LOL.

Yeah, they aren't terrible like David Lee wasn't terrible.

****, we lived next to the Welds growing up (had dinner there once a year) and the man himself thought he was a bad governor. If you want some wilder Weld stories I can text you. Dude was quite the character and always hung out with us kids for long periods.

Scott Brown is a complete **** moron. I scrape him off my shoe.

I've actually met Romney too, albeit very briefly. Some years back, the Mormon church on Brattle Street was burning down. My friend called me to come check it out. I was checking it out near the fence by the Longfellow house, taking a hit of my chillum before I went down into the park where my friend was and a car door slams behind me. Romney gets out, alone, faced caked in makeup (he looked like a serial killer in real life). He sees me getting high, says hello, I say hello, and he walks past me towards the fire. It was a somewhat humorous (a building was burning down next to us so that tempered things, lol) brief encounter.

Mitt Romney and his family are close with my wife’s family. My side knows most of the top Dems.

But I live in Tom McClintock’s district out here. To put it mildly, NE GOP is 500,000 miles from him, who himself is 5,000,000 miles from the GOP of places like Texas and the Deep South.

[canman1971]

Scott Brown, Bill Weld aren't terrible, IMO.

LOL.

Yeah, they aren't terrible like David Lee wasn't terrible.

****, we lived next to the Welds growing up (had dinner there once a year) and the man himself thought he was a bad governor. If you want some wilder Weld stories I can text you. Dude was quite the character and always hung out with us kids for long periods.

Scott Brown is a complete **** moron. I scrape him off my shoe.

I've actually met Romney too, albeit very briefly. Some years back, the Mormon church on Brattle Street was burning down. My friend called me to come check it out. I was checking it out near the fence by the Longfellow house, taking a hit of my chillum before I went down into the park where my friend was and a car door slams behind me. Romney gets out, alone, face caked in makeup (he looked like a serial killer in real life). He sees me getting high, says hello, I say hello, and he walks past me towards the fire. It was a somewhat humorous (a building was burning down next to us so that tempered things, lol) brief encounter.

His Mom is in a assisted living home where my GF is a nurse. She says pretty much the same thing. She said he is total scumbag and can't stand it when he comes in. And she says he dresses like a freaking bum. Sweatpants, hair all a mess, etc...

[Captain_Caveman]

Relevant to recent discussion here:

America is facing an epistemic crisis:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/2/16588964/america-epistemic-crisis

[165bows]

Not going to defend the history of the CIA here, but suffice to say, your post is unabashed apologism for treason.

Trump and the GOP willfully collaborated with a hostile foreign government to interfere in our election in return for favorable policy.

Again, there is no precedent for this in our history.

Again, it is by far the biggest scandal in our nation's history.

Dozens of people are going to prison for this, and they should. Only question here is exactly how far it goes. Either way, the Trump Administration is going to be mortally wounded.

I honestly think this is comically hysterical.

Well, better make your peace with it, because it’s happening.

Right, so this assumes the scandal of a nation that is ~250 years old is occurring right now in our lifetimes and you have sussed out the final story while it is ongoing. Occam's Razor would say that is very unlikely, and more likely that it is in line with long-established historical behaviors of people in power rather than something so dramatic.

[Captain_Caveman]

I honestly think this is comically hysterical.

Well, better make your peace with it, because it’s happening.

Right, so this assumes the scandal of a nation that is ~250 years old is occurring right now in our lifetimes and you have sussed out the final story while it is ongoing. Occam's Razor would say that is very unlikely, and more likely that it is in line with long-established historical behaviors of people in power rather than something so dramatic.

A ranking member of the Senate Intelligence Committee has gone on record multiple times saying that Trump's former National Security Advisor is a cooperating witness for the FBI investigation (which is also widely being reported on that twitter place).

That is the basic equivalent of Kissinger ratting on Nixon, or Condi Rice doing so for GW Bush.

Never mind the rest of it, and there is definitely a rest of it. Just take that almost-certainly-a-fact alone. What else in our history reaches the level of an innermost cabinet member providing evidence against their own administration, and quite possibly the President himself?

And never mind the media, or even our own opinions here as well. Even a cursory review of the indictment source documents and public testimony by multiple intelligence agency heads paints a serious picture of what is at root here.

[greenroom31]

I went to high school with the Romney kids for some years (at Belmont Hill). Ben Romney was my year -- he's the one that's basically an albino. Not a well-liked kid as he was super introverted and socially awkward. His older brothers seemed a little more affable.

Bobby Orr's kids also went there. They were stoners who wrestled (no hockey).

[theman]

But the disassociation is something else. It goes deep into our national mythology and self-image.

I like this quote:

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- Ronald Wright, A Short History of Progress

Mr./Ms. Wright is right (ha ha) but not in the pejorative of his intent. Socialism never took root in the U.S. because there is no permanent lower class. People don't think they can get ahead the know they can get ahead. Where else but America could a poor black boy whose father abandoned him and his mother grow up to lead the nation? Not through revolution but election?

There are no serfs in America; no cast system.

Add to that the American love of freedom and it is easy to see why America would reject socialism.

One question for those who do support it, how happy would you be if the current administration were to implement socialism in the U.S.?