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Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold?

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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#121 » by Infinite Llamas » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:00 am

HoopsMalone wrote:
GreenBloodedC wrote:Could Rozier be better than Avery Bradley?

Seriously?

Bradley is possibly on his way out of the league right now. Guy looks totally washed up.


Rozier is already better than Bradley ever was as a Celtic, easily. Bradley never had the type of impact on either end of the floor that Rozier has had this year alone. Bradley is a defensive liability despite all his efforts

I gotta admit its weird how reluctant your fanbase has been to get behind Rozier this year


Sometimes, people have their mind made up on a player and it takes a lot for them to change their mind. I’m not calling these people inherently obstinate but some just need a lot of convincing. Rozier was getting DNPs around this time last year (inexplicably). His growth into a more consistent shooter was an unexpected twist.

I’ve long been a believer in Rozier. I love guards that can rebound and hyper athletic ones to boot. Rozier player 48 minutes in the recent double OT game and he looked like he was just getting started. I knew he was going to be something special during a game in Cleveland last year where Boston was down 3 late and they literally ran a play for Rozier who had been on the bench a while. For Stevens to trust a guy shooting in the low 30’s from the distance told me a lot. Rozier hit the shot and he’s hit many more clutch shots since then.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#122 » by GreenBloodedC » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:33 am

Infinite Llamas wrote:
HoopsMalone wrote:
GreenBloodedC wrote:Could Rozier be better than Avery Bradley?

Seriously?

Bradley is possibly on his way out of the league right now. Guy looks totally washed up.


Rozier is already better than Bradley ever was as a Celtic, easily. Bradley never had the type of impact on either end of the floor that Rozier has had this year alone. Bradley is a defensive liability despite all his efforts

I gotta admit its weird how reluctant your fanbase has been to get behind Rozier this year


Sometimes, people have their mind made up on a player and it takes a lot for them to change their mind. I’m not calling these people inherently obstinate but some just need a lot of convincing. Rozier was getting DNPs around this time last year (inexplicably). His growth into a more consistent shooter was an unexpected twist.

I’ve long been a believer in Rozier. I love guards that can rebound and hyper athletic ones to boot. Rozier player 48 minutes in the recent double OT game and he looked like he was just getting started. I knew he was going to be something special during a game in Cleveland last year where Boston was down 3 late and they literally ran a play for Rozier who had been on the bench a while. For Stevens to trust a guy shooting in the low 30’s from the distance told me a lot. Rozier hit the shot and he’s hit many more clutch shots since then.

You could also say that Rozier and Bradley are on a similar track. Both were down on Maine the first year, not a lot were expected initially from both but shined when given the opportunity. Bradley's just much more fundamentally sound, that's why it's easier to root for him.

PS, both are compared to Jordan 8-)
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#123 » by cloverleaf » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:02 am

GreenBloodedC wrote:
Infinite Llamas wrote:
HoopsMalone wrote:Seriously?

Bradley is possibly on his way out of the league right now. Guy looks totally washed up.


Rozier is already better than Bradley ever was as a Celtic, easily. Bradley never had the type of impact on either end of the floor that Rozier has had this year alone. Bradley is a defensive liability despite all his efforts

I gotta admit its weird how reluctant your fanbase has been to get behind Rozier this year


Sometimes, people have their mind made up on a player and it takes a lot for them to change their mind. I’m not calling these people inherently obstinate but some just need a lot of convincing. Rozier was getting DNPs around this time last year (inexplicably). His growth into a more consistent shooter was an unexpected twist.

I’ve long been a believer in Rozier. I love guards that can rebound and hyper athletic ones to boot. Rozier player 48 minutes in the recent double OT game and he looked like he was just getting started. I knew he was going to be something special during a game in Cleveland last year where Boston was down 3 late and they literally ran a play for Rozier who had been on the bench a while. For Stevens to trust a guy shooting in the low 30’s from the distance told me a lot. Rozier hit the shot and he’s hit many more clutch shots since then.

You could also say that Rozier and Bradley are on a similar track. Both were down on Maine the first year, not a lot were expected initially from both but shined when given the opportunity. Bradley's just much more fundamentally sound, that's why it's easier to root for him.

PS, both are compared to Jordan 8-)


More fundamentally sound? AB can't pass or dribble, becoming an undersized 2--which creates its own problems. TRo shooting higher from the 3, in TS%, way higher in rebounds and assists. More was made of AB's man D, but TRo more of a team defender with less ego involved.

AB with a VORP of -0.8 this season to TRo's +1.6. AB with a -.009 WS/48 to TRo's +.133. Terry's advanced stats this year are higher than AB ever hit in his 8 years in the league. And, after 8 years in the league AB is what he is--at best, whereas TRo is clearly improving by the month in his third year in the league--as he finally gets extended playing time.

I don't mean anything against AB, but it is much easier for me to root for Terry.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#124 » by HoopsMalone » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:14 am

Yeah Rozier is a pretty special player. Bradley has always just been a common one. I can see why he was a fan favorite because he had a lot of heart, but he's just not on Rozier's level at all. Rozier could easily blossom into a top 10 PG next year and he plays the 2 guard fairly seamlessly as well.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#125 » by djFan71 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 am

C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#126 » by SichtingLives » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:57 am

Terry and AB both have great work ethic, steadily adding to their game and I love that they are both silent assassins who dont run their lips and do work. But as players I mean AB was a better player for 3 or 4 seasons straight than Terry is right yet, and TRo hasn't done this in a major role against starters either. Terry has a higher ceiling though, especially on offense.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#127 » by cloverleaf » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:37 pm

djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates and better defensive rating.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#128 » by djFan71 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:53 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.

Terry's stats in 16 mpg against reserves don't just scale linearly to compare against a guy playing nearly 36 minutes as a starter in the playoffs. That's the biggest stat - Brad started him and played Avery 20 more minutes per game than Terry. Plus, Avery covered for IT on defense by taking the toughest guard every night (Marcus did that for Terry) while still scoring over 16 ppg. Going off memory, Avery won about half the VC threads here. If not, he was runner up.

I like what Rozier's doing now, but AB was REALLY good for us in last year's playoff run.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#129 » by truth18 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:56 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates and better defensive rating.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.


Lol, what? AB (and an absurd Olynyk game seven against the Wizards) was the only reason we went as far as we did last post season. He was our post season MVP. We lose to the Bulls without him.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#130 » by celticfan42487 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:42 pm

truth18 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates and better defensive rating.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.


Lol, what? AB (and an absurd Olynyk game seven against the Wizards) was the only reason we went as far as we did last post season. He was our post season MVP. We lose to the Bulls without him.


Right. I'm glad plenty of Celtic fans on this board can admit AB was good for us last year despite him no longer being on our team and having a bad year this year.

AB is a great story and a reason of why I'm 100% on board with any Rozier extension. He seems on the edge of dramatically increasing his value any given year.
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Re: RE: Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#131 » by ballup » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:01 pm

HoopsMalone wrote:Yeah Rozier is a pretty special player. Bradley has always just been a common one. I can see why he was a fan favorite because he had a lot of heart, but he's just not on Rozier's level at all. Rozier could easily blossom into a top 10 PG next year and he plays the 2 guard fairly seamlessly as well.

I think you need to count the number of elite PGs in the league again




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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#132 » by cloverleaf » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:46 pm

djFan71 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.

Terry's stats in 16 mpg against reserves don't just scale linearly to compare against a guy playing nearly 36 minutes as a starter in the playoffs. That's the biggest stat - Brad started him and played Avery 20 more minutes per game than Terry. Plus, Avery covered for IT on defense by taking the toughest guard every night (Marcus did that for Terry) while still scoring over 16 ppg. Going off memory, Avery won about half the VC threads here. If not, he was runner up.

I like what Rozier's doing now, but AB was REALLY good for us in last year's playoff run.


Ridiculous. AH and IT were both far more important than AB. Al was unconscious with a .668 TS% through the playoffs. IT and KO both won games for the C's practically single-handedly. I don't have anything against AB, but his contributions are not remembered accurately. JC IMO was more critical. And several bench guys, for their roles, outperformed AB for his role.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#133 » by Gomes3PC » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:57 pm

If Rozier could ever learn to finish in the paint, he'd be a borderline All Star. Great defender, can get by his man, and his 3 point shot is rock solid. He's not going to be confused for CP3 as a passer but totally fine there for a "lead guard" in the NBA.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#134 » by cloverleaf » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:50 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:If Rozier could ever learn to finish in the paint, he'd be a borderline All Star. Great defender, can get by his man, and his 3 point shot is rock solid. He's not going to be confused for CP3 as a passer but totally fine there for a "lead guard" in the NBA.


Yep--and I think he'll spend his summer working on it.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#135 » by djFan71 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:24 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.

Terry's stats in 16 mpg against reserves don't just scale linearly to compare against a guy playing nearly 36 minutes as a starter in the playoffs. That's the biggest stat - Brad started him and played Avery 20 more minutes per game than Terry. Plus, Avery covered for IT on defense by taking the toughest guard every night (Marcus did that for Terry) while still scoring over 16 ppg. Going off memory, Avery won about half the VC threads here. If not, he was runner up.

I like what Rozier's doing now, but AB was REALLY good for us in last year's playoff run.


Ridiculous. AH and IT were both far more important than AB. Al was unconscious with a .668 TS% through the playoffs. IT and KO both won games for the C's practically single-handedly. I don't have anything against AB, but his contributions are not remembered accurately. JC IMO was more critical. And several bench guys, for their roles, outperformed AB for his role.

Sure, you can make cases for Al & IT - I did say arguably - but Avery is in the mix. Jae isn't for me. But, to each his own, I guess. I'm glad we moved on from Avery to Jaylen since I'm a big believer in length on D. And, I love what Terry's doing - I just don't think he's as good yet as Avery was last year.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#136 » by cloverleaf » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:44 pm

Who would have guessed it?

TRo likely headed to #3 on the team for minutes on the year.

(Also #3 in VORP.)
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#137 » by jmr07019 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:20 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
djFan71 wrote:C'mon now, AB was our arguably our best player in the playoffs last year. Rozier's been playing great, but he's not at that level yet. Potentially, sure, but Avery had some really good years for us.


Come, now. In the playoffs last year, AB had a TS% of .530 to TRo's .529.
But TRo with the higher PER, VORP and WS/48--13.4 to 12.0, 0.1 to 0.0, and .085 to .016.

TRo with the higher rebounding, assist, steal and block rates and better defensive rating.

AB of course was a starter and played more minutes, but there is really no way he outplayed young Mr. Rozier.


He guarded Jimmy Butler extremely well. Rozier was going against backup pg's.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#138 » by Gomes3PC » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:41 pm

At 23, Avery could barely dribble a basketball. He was a pure spot up guy who played great on-ball D. He's a very useful player but far less complete a player.

Rozier is capable of actually operating an offense right now at the same age. Rozier is unquestionably on a better path at this stage of his career vs. Bradley. Rozier may not be QUITE as good a defender, but he is still a top shelf guy on that end.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#139 » by Kids Are Alright » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:35 am

AB was great on the perimeter D but with penetration I thought his defense was very limited. Once someone got past Avery, forget it.
Anyone notice Al Horford’s revovery D on a couple of breakaways against OKC?
He got blocks outta nowhere, but man his inside offensive game stunk, almost on a Semi-level.
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Re: Has Rozier finally broken out or is it fools gold? 

Post#140 » by Kids Are Alright » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:35 am

Liked AB a lot as a C tho
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