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Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1481 » by cloverleaf » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:38 pm

Soulcatcher33 wrote:Hayward will be gone by mid season no matter what. Regardless if he has a comeback year near the 2017 player he was or not he's gone. This is mostly because of Tatum. It won't matter if Hayward is clearly better than him he's just not going to step aside. He cares more about himself than the benefit of the team. Hayward could literally come back BETTER than he was in 2017 and it wouldn't matter since Tatum has more to prove on an individual level than he does helping the team overall. Hayward being unselfish to a fault only helps to exacerbate this as he's just not the kind of guy to force the issue regardless if he should or not.


Wow--I think you are somehow smearing both Gordon and Tatum here. Gordon starting next to Tatum this year is going to help Tatum's game as Gordon smoothly feeds Tatum the ball in all the right spots for him.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1482 » by GOATTatum » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:08 pm

We already know what Hayward is, He's an allstar type player when healthy. I knew his injury would take a year for him to recover physically and mentally. He's gonna beast this coming year and Danny trades him for at least 2 1st rd picks. Losing Hayward wont hurt either because we got that dude Tatum who's ready to take the NBA throne.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1483 » by Gomes3PC » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:38 pm

At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1484 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:44 pm

At his peak Hayward was the white LeBron. If peak Hayward is the third option on your team, you are winning 80 games.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1485 » by Gomes3PC » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:48 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:At his peak Hayward was the white LeBron. If peak Hayward is the third option on your team, you are winning 80 games.

Did you forget the green font?
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1486 » by Slartibartfast » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:57 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.


Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1487 » by Bleeding Green » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:04 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:At his peak Hayward was the white LeBron. If peak Hayward is the third option on your team, you are winning 80 games.

Did you forget the green font?

No, though I should scale back 80 to like 70 perhaps. He was the #1 option on a 51 win team in the West.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1488 » by Gomes3PC » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:50 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:
Gomes3PC wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:At his peak Hayward was the white LeBron. If peak Hayward is the third option on your team, you are winning 80 games.

Did you forget the green font?

No, though I should scale back 80 to like 70 perhaps. He was the #1 option on a 51 win team in the West.

He was the top scorer, but Gobert was clearly their best player.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1489 » by Gomes3PC » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Gomes3PC wrote:At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.


Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.

Sure, I probably should have been clearer and said something like "3rd best player." Think we are saying the same thing though.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1490 » by cloverleaf » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:39 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Gomes3PC wrote:At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.


Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.


He was 20th in the league in defensive win shares that All-Star year (and 19th overall).
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1491 » by Gomes3PC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:11 am

cloverleaf wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Gomes3PC wrote:At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.


Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.


He was 20th in the league in defensive win shares that All-Star year (and 19th overall).

I think a lot of that was his minutes being heavily correlated next to a defensive monster in Gobert. GH is smart, physical and read lanes well but his foot speed is average and his wingspan/reach means he can't challenge shots well. Gobert's insane ability to clean up those mistaken play perfectly for Hayward's defensive strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1492 » by cloverleaf » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:43 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.


He was 20th in the league in defensive win shares that All-Star year (and 19th overall).

I think a lot of that was his minutes being heavily correlated next to a defensive monster in Gobert. GH is smart, physical and read lanes well but his foot speed is average and his wingspan/reach means he can't challenge shots well. Gobert's insane ability to clean up those mistaken play perfectly for Hayward's defensive strengths and weaknesses.


Hayward has some surprising athleticism. His max standing vertical was 30.5, good for 11th, in a draft class where the best was 32.0. Also, his 3/4 court sprint at 3.22 was 12th best at the combine, and his max vertical leap was 15th. (He wasn't great at lane agility and they didn't do the shuttle run.) He wouldn't have been so good at tennis without great eye and hand coordination and reaction times, however.

Yes, his wingspan and standing reach are limited, which is why he should probably stick to the SF as opposed to PF position. It's on Tatum to muscle up and hold down the 4 spot this season.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1493 » by Gomes3PC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:50 pm

Agree - he has solid verticality off one or both feet and great feel, but his lateral quickness is marginal and that combined with subpar length means he can be beaten off the bounce. Gobert negated that weakness a ton and having on ball guys like Smart and Jaylen does in Boston, but it is a real limiting factor on his defensive impact.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1494 » by FakeScreenName123 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:35 pm

i have nothing to add other than Gobert is a ***** and i would like every player to dunk on him consecutively
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1495 » by Soulcatcher33 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:14 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:At his peak (year before we got him) GH was looking like a 3rd option for a title contender. No guarantee he will return to that, but his ceiling was a back end All Star in the vein of Al Horford.


Hayward was a top 20 player in the league in 2017. The NBA has a lot of problems if a top 20 player is considered a 3rd option on a championship team now. (thanks super teams) I watched the Jazz all year long in 2017 and he easily could have been averaging 25ppg on the same efficiency if he had wanted to. He's just an unselfish team oriented player to his core. He also probably lost 1-2ppg because he was regularly getting no calls at the rim. He should have been taking 7+ fta's a game. It was amusing, too, considering the soft calls established stars were getting and he'd be hammered and get nothing.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1496 » by Soulcatcher33 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:17 pm

Gomes3PC wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Offensively, he was good enough to be a 2nd option. 20ppg on good efficiency to go along with quality secondary playmaking. His problem is that he wasn't a big impact player on the other side of the ball.


He was 20th in the league in defensive win shares that All-Star year (and 19th overall).

I think a lot of that was his minutes being heavily correlated next to a defensive monster in Gobert. GH is smart, physical and read lanes well but his foot speed is average and his wingspan/reach means he can't challenge shots well. Gobert's insane ability to clean up those mistaken play perfectly for Hayward's defensive strengths and weaknesses.


Much of defense is just knowing where to be and making the right switches and what not. Individual defense is incredibly overrated...especially when you can't play any real defense on the perimeter anymore anyway. What matters is your team defense and Hayward has always had a high BBIQ so he always knows where to be and rarely screws up. He was by no means a great defensive player on the Jazz, but he was never a hindrance and wouldn't have been whether Gobert was there or not.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1497 » by Gomes3PC » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:30 pm

Soulcatcher33 wrote:
Gomes3PC wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
He was 20th in the league in defensive win shares that All-Star year (and 19th overall).

I think a lot of that was his minutes being heavily correlated next to a defensive monster in Gobert. GH is smart, physical and read lanes well but his foot speed is average and his wingspan/reach means he can't challenge shots well. Gobert's insane ability to clean up those mistaken play perfectly for Hayward's defensive strengths and weaknesses.


Much of defense is just knowing where to be and making the right switches and what not. Individual defense is incredibly overrated...especially when you can't play any real defense on the perimeter anymore anyway. What matters is your team defense and Hayward has always had a high BBIQ so he always knows where to be and rarely screws up. He was by no means a great defensive player on the Jazz, but he was never a hindrance and wouldn't have been whether Gobert was there or not.

I don't think he's a bad defender, he's just not an impact defender, and the injury definitely further sapped his agility. Hopefully in year two some of that burst comes back.
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Re: Gordon Hayward /Recovery or Bust 

Post#1498 » by thomas1897 » Wed Aug 7, 2019 7:31 am

Hayward will have to step up his game to justify his contract and does he have what it takes to help the Celtics to win another NBA title. Gordan Hayward reminders me of the late John Havlicek who can be used in many positions and brings playmaking skills and stability to any position he plays. Will Brad Stevens use him as a six man or starter. Can he have the option on offense to be the creator and let the offense run through by making plays or taking good shots, post ups, off the dribble or passing. How will Brad Stevens use his skill set with the new members of the team. Weaknesses are sometimes reluctant to shoot,out of position offensively and taking it to the basketball. The Celtics will have to find ways to balance off the offense when Tatum, Walker and Brown are all playing together with Hayward. Who and how will all these adjustments effect the most when playing together with this group of players. Who sacrifices his shot and team chemistry are very important for the Celtics in 2019-2020?
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1499 » by FlatearthZorro » Wed Aug 7, 2019 9:45 am

Bleeding Green wrote:At his peak Hayward was the white LeBron. If peak Hayward is the third option on your team, you are winning 80 games.


Yea he was way too dynamic for a 3rd option. He was a 2nd on a championship team. That season he ownes guys like Giannis twice. Strong, quick, great dribble, great PnR, great change of pace, he was one of the better players on offense. Also averaged over 24 on. 460 from the field against the eventual champs with 2 MVPs on their squad.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1500 » by 100proof » Wed Aug 7, 2019 11:56 am

Hayward has become redundant for this team.

It is clear that Tatum and Brown are the future, and Hayward hinders both of them. Unless he is playing the 6th man role, which, imo, is best suited for him.

I can see Hayward being shopped by seasons end for picks and young talent up front. and if Hayward can return to a per minute statline that resembles that Allstar season in Utah, then his value should be high when looking to deal for a disgruntled superstar/star player.

I think soon we will be seeing KAT, Embiid, Griffin could be demanding trades.

KAT? - well Timberwolves
Griffin - Wont win in detroit
Embiid - that the tricky one, if they continue to lose in the playoffs, after spending alot on Harris and Horford, and with Simmons still being looked at as the cornerstone piece I could see Embiid getting frustrated.

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