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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 7, 2019 12:35 pm
by OldCeltics
I think Ainge is to in love with Hayward to ever trade him. Which is fine, Hayward plays the right way.

Hopefully Hayward can return to 60% of his all-star level.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 7, 2019 1:25 pm
by CsBsSoxPhins
100proof wrote:Hayward has become redundant for this team.

It is clear that Tatum and Brown are the future, and Hayward hinders both of them. Unless he is playing the 6th man role, which, imo, is best suited for him.

I can see Hayward being shopped by seasons end for picks and young talent up front. and if Hayward can return to a per minute statline that resembles that Allstar season in Utah, then his value should be high when looking to deal for a disgruntled superstar/star player.

I think soon we will be seeing KAT, Embiid, Griffin could be demanding trades.

KAT? - well Timberwolves
Griffin - Wont win in detroit
Embiid - that the tricky one, if they continue to lose in the playoffs, after spending alot on Harris and Horford, and with Simmons still being looked at as the cornerstone piece I could see Embiid getting frustrated.

KAT - Hayward, injury or not, will never be enough in a deal for KAT.
Griffin - I'd rather just keep Hayward.
Embiid - really don't see him demanding a trade any time soon at all; he really seems to embrace what the 6ers created. Additionally, see my comments about KAT & side note, I'd be more scared of his injury history than Hayward's. Hayward had a freak accident, Embiid is just always going to be an injury concern. Despite the age difference, I could see Hayward playing beyond Embiid's time in the NBA.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 7, 2019 7:00 pm
by FlatearthZorro
CsBsSoxPhins wrote:
100proof wrote:Hayward has become redundant for this team.

It is clear that Tatum and Brown are the future, and Hayward hinders both of them. Unless he is playing the 6th man role, which, imo, is best suited for him.

I can see Hayward being shopped by seasons end for picks and young talent up front. and if Hayward can return to a per minute statline that resembles that Allstar season in Utah, then his value should be high when looking to deal for a disgruntled superstar/star player.

I think soon we will be seeing KAT, Embiid, Griffin could be demanding trades.

KAT? - well Timberwolves
Griffin - Wont win in detroit
Embiid - that the tricky one, if they continue to lose in the playoffs, after spending alot on Harris and Horford, and with Simmons still being looked at as the cornerstone piece I could see Embiid getting frustrated.

KAT - Hayward, injury or not, will never be enough in a deal for KAT.
Griffin - I'd rather just keep Hayward.
Embiid - really don't see him demanding a trade any time soon at all; he really seems to embrace what the 6ers created. Additionally, see my comments about KAT & side note, I'd be more scared of his injury history than Hayward's. Hayward had a freak accident, Embiid is just always going to be an injury concern. Despite the age difference, I could see Hayward playing beyond Embiid's time in the NBA.


Agree a little bit on both. Honestly Danny does have to make a decision on Brown. Keep and try to extend him or trade him. To me it could be bad when it comes to wing minutes like it was last season. We need 2 sure fire starters, a role player off the bench and then Langford that's about it. I still think Semi could have a Morris type career, hope he gets a chance.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Wed Aug 7, 2019 7:31 pm
by StojkoVrankovic
Hold on a second, I thought we were trading Brown because we drafted Langford?

Make up your minds

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 12:44 am
by mwhis21
CsBsSoxPhins wrote:
100proof wrote:Hayward has become redundant for this team.

It is clear that Tatum and Brown are the future, and Hayward hinders both of them. Unless he is playing the 6th man role, which, imo, is best suited for him.

I can see Hayward being shopped by seasons end for picks and young talent up front. and if Hayward can return to a per minute statline that resembles that Allstar season in Utah, then his value should be high when looking to deal for a disgruntled superstar/star player.

I think soon we will be seeing KAT, Embiid, Griffin could be demanding trades.

KAT? - well Timberwolves
Griffin - Wont win in detroit
Embiid - that the tricky one, if they continue to lose in the playoffs, after spending alot on Harris and Horford, and with Simmons still being looked at as the cornerstone piece I could see Embiid getting frustrated.

KAT - Hayward, injury or not, will never be enough in a deal for KAT.
Griffin - I'd rather just keep Hayward.
Embiid - really don't see him demanding a trade any time soon at all; he really seems to embrace what the 6ers created. Additionally, see my comments about KAT & side note, I'd be more scared of his injury history than Hayward's. Hayward had a freak accident, Embiid is just always going to be an injury concern. Despite the age difference, I could see Hayward playing beyond Embiid's time in the NBA.


I don’t see Embiid playing past 30 tbh - maybe he kicks around. He’s SO BIG. He’s already had knee/foot problems.

It’s a matter of time.

Don’t wish him any bad health. He’s a great player. just feel he has 3 great years left, 2 mixed/injury prone years and that’s it.

Hope I’m wrong though.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 1:54 am
by Jurry
I've never loved the fit between Brown, Hayward and Tatum, it is ultimately three guys who play the same position and their skills haven't shown to complement each other. Feel like the original plan was always going to move one of the kids before the ankling took place. That said I don't see there being any issues this year as Hayward is unselfish, Brown now has 3 good years of NBA experience and Tatum has never stepped on anyones toes while last years debacle should only foster more intelligent play out of everyone. But I think odds are over 50% that one of Brown or Hayward are gone by the deadline. Don't agree that it's clear who the future of the franchise is, I'd say that is still very much up in the air if not the future of this franchise is even currently on the roster.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 2:51 am
by GregB
Unless theirs a deal to be had , no point in moving him right now.

Guy I really want is Aaron Gordon. Not sure if Orlando is still incompetent. But I just think Gordon is a perfect compliment at the 4 to Brown and Tatum.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 5:34 am
by ParticleMan
Jurry wrote:I've never loved the fit between Brown, Hayward and Tatum, it is ultimately three guys who play the same position and their skills haven't shown to complement each other. Feel like the original plan was always going to move one of the kids before the ankling took place. That said I don't see there being any issues this year as Hayward is unselfish, Brown now has 3 good years of NBA experience and Tatum has never stepped on anyones toes while last years debacle should only foster more intelligent play out of everyone. But I think odds are over 50% that one of Brown or Hayward are gone by the deadline. Don't agree that it's clear who the future of the franchise is, I'd say that is still very much up in the air if not the future of this franchise is even currently on the roster.


gotta think longer term. hayward has an opt-out at the end of the year. if he returns to form, he will probably take it. so that solves that problem right away. if he doesn't return to form, then he's really a bench level player. jaylen and tatum will be ahead of him, and again, it's not an issue.

unless we get a massive deal for tatum of JB, i think they stay. they are the future, hayward is not. of course if we get a good offer for hayward we should take it, but without proving he can live up to his deal, right now his value is net negative.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 6:38 am
by GuyClinch
Hayward will run the show out there - so going to be hard to evaluate him simply because of how he will be a defacto PG. Brown and Tatum are scorers - and not passers. The issue is Hayward and Tatum - both guys need to play the 3. Brown is more of 2 so he can work with either Tatum or Hayward. Though Hayward will make him look better.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Thu Aug 8, 2019 12:36 pm
by 100proof
GregB wrote:Unless theirs a deal to be had , no point in moving him right now.

Guy I really want is Aaron Gordon. Not sure if Orlando is still incompetent. But I just think Gordon is a perfect compliment at the 4 to Brown and Tatum.


I think Gordon could be had, but it would require moving Hayward to make sense.

Orlando needs a sg/sf that can do what Hayward does.

Boston needs a proper floor spacing PF who can defend and fits the timeline.


Not sure what other pieces would need to be included because in a bubble, a healthy Hayward is work more than Gordon. Perhaps Fournier, but Fournier flipped to a 3rd team and another asset to Orlando?

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:39 am
by Andrew McCeltic
100proof wrote:
GregB wrote:Unless theirs a deal to be had , no point in moving him right now.

Guy I really want is Aaron Gordon. Not sure if Orlando is still incompetent. But I just think Gordon is a perfect compliment at the 4 to Brown and Tatum.


I think Gordon could be had, but it would require moving Hayward to make sense.

Orlando needs a sg/sf that can do what Hayward does.

Boston needs a proper floor spacing PF who can defend and fits the timeline.


Not sure what other pieces would need to be included because in a bubble, a healthy Hayward is work more than Gordon. Perhaps Fournier, but Fournier flipped to a 3rd team and another asset to Orlando?


Just posted something on this in another thread.. You could probably get Gordon/Fournier for Hayward. Fournier's not great and he's on a long contract. You could even angle for Bamba, too, but AG/Fournier/Bamba for Hayward/someone would be the dream trade from our perspective. I think AG/Fournier/1st for Hayward is as high as we could push it. Hate the idea of trading Hayward, but circumstances have put it on the table. A healthy Hayward with Vucevic, Ross, Isaac, Aminu is a top 3 team in the east, and they could make Hayward a point forward and have a lot of lineup flexibility.

Aaron Gordon doesn't rebound well for his size and athleticism - he was quoted within the last year saying something about how he was just realizing why boxing out is a good thing. Tatum is a better rebounder, and potentially he's the floor spacing 4 who can defend. Gordon has great defensive upside and he could keep improving on offense, but he's looking like a better Thaddeus Young as a defense-first power forward who can occasionally light it up.

I would try to do Hayward to ORL, Aaron Gordon to Indiana, Myles Turner and Fournier to BOS. Give Tatum and Brown a full year to keep grinding and developing as scorers while Kemba helps them along and carries the load. Fournier is a useful role-player and salary for trades, keep developing Turner and Rob Williams, see what happens. You could go get Brad Beal with Fournier, Langford, some combination of Williamses and picks, if you think it would work.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:51 am
by Andrew McCeltic
Seeing the bigs we might be able to pry free by moving Hayward, Myles Turner/Bamba/Rob Williams is a tough mix to differentiate. Myles Turner would make us an elite defensive team immediately, he can space the floor, he's only 23, and he may develop as a rebounder and scorer. The fact he's near the trade market at all is kind of a stunner. Bamba has superstar upside, but he's high risk. And Rob Williams looks like he'll be as impactful on defense as Turner within 1-2 years, so why make a trade at all? See how Hayward fits and look at moving him for different packages..

Hayward to ORL, Aaron Gordon to IND, Bamba to OKC, Myles Turner and SGA to Boston:

Kemba/SGA/Edwards/Wanamaker
Smart/Langford
Jaylen/Ojeleye
Tatum/Grant Williams/Theis
Myles/Kanter/Rob Williams/Poirier

You pick up a long-term Kemba understudy in Shai, a 23yo 3&D center in Turner - you monitor Langford, G and R Williams, you're good enough to potentially come out of the east this year, and you have a young core locked in for a decade: SGA/Langford/Brown/Tatum/Turner, with Edwards, Ojeleye, and the Williamses off the bench.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:59 am
by Andrew McCeltic
Jurry wrote:I've never loved the fit between Brown, Hayward and Tatum, it is ultimately three guys who play the same position and their skills haven't shown to complement each other. Feel like the original plan was always going to move one of the kids before the ankling took place. That said I don't see there being any issues this year as Hayward is unselfish, Brown now has 3 good years of NBA experience and Tatum has never stepped on anyones toes while last years debacle should only foster more intelligent play out of everyone. But I think odds are over 50% that one of Brown or Hayward are gone by the deadline. Don't agree that it's clear who the future of the franchise is, I'd say that is still very much up in the air if not the future of this franchise is even currently on the roster.


It's Hayward unless he's back to all-star level and with he and Kemba both 29 years old, Danny thinks we have a championship window right now. I think that would be a mistake even if we do have a window.

Is Hayward for Blake even possible? I think you could get Drummond for Hayward, but that's a gamble. I think Drummond is underrated, he's always been on bad teams.. if he can lock in on both sides of the ball, he's a DPOY player, dominant rebounder, and lob threat. Doesn't space the floor, free throws an ongoing problem, and he's probably 2-3 years away from the Dwight/DJ slow fade.

Still, Kemba/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Drummond would be top 3 defensively, top 3 rebounding, and top 10 or higher on offense.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 4:41 pm
by jmr07019
Orlando wouldn't trade Gordon for Hayward straight up and you want them to throw their starting SG into the deal too!?

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:00 pm
by Half-Full
jmr07019 wrote:Orlando wouldn't trade Gordon for Hayward straight up and you want them to throw their starting SG into the deal too!?


I agree. Seems like wishful thinking to me too.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:03 am
by Andrew McCeltic
Half-Full wrote:
jmr07019 wrote:Orlando wouldn't trade Gordon for Hayward straight up and you want them to throw their starting SG into the deal too!?


I agree. Seems like wishful thinking to me too.


Aaron Gordon has been available before - they have Isaac and Aminu there to take minutes at the 4. If Hayward is back to an all-star level, AG/Fournier might even be too little value, depending on how you grade Aaron. Fournier is a pretty good, crafty scorer, but not a good defender, and not good enough as a scorer that you really want to have that money tied up in him.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:49 am
by 31to6
Aaron Gordon, Fournier and Bamba or a first for Gordon Hayward? At some point you really owe it to yourself to post reasonable trade ideas.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:59 am
by Andrew McCeltic
31to6 wrote:Aaron Gordon, Fournier and Bamba or a first for Gordon Hayward? At some point you really owe it to yourself to post reasonable trade ideas.


At some point I owe it to myself to not have the board jump up my ass every time I identify a trade scenario and assume I’m an idiot with no perspective.

I’ve explained my reasoning more than once - when I say Gordon/Fournier/Bamba is the most we could hope for, I don’t mean “Do it Danny!”, I mean that’s the high end if circumstances aligned, there’s like a ten percent chance of that happening - and it would take talent evaluation, coaching judgments, and ownership pressures. Probably agent pressures, too. I don’t think identifying that high end is pointless - it worked for us in the KG/Pierce trade to Brooklyn. And looking at what the LA teams paid for Davis and Paul George, I don’t think anyone here would have said those trades were “realistic” if I’d posted them as potential deals.

I think Gordon/Fournier/1st would be fair. We’re talking about a deal where Hayward has come back to his Utah form - how good do you think that is? How good do you think Fournier and Gordon are in comparison? We’ll be lucky if Brown or Tatum develops half of Hayward’s offensive awareness and passing ability, he’s very smart both on and off the ball, Horford level savvy. And everyone here thought Zach Lavine was an awful target - Aaron Gordon isn’t much different, except instead of shooting and getting to the rim, he plays defense. He’s a super athlete who doesn’t have great awareness and is a work in progress. Right now he’s looking like he’s going to land somewhere between Shane Battier and Shawn Marion - impact defensive player, can shoot a little, uneven as a scorer, and right now he’s a mediocre rebounder. Improving as a playmaker. Best case is that within a couple of years he puts it all together, grabs 9 boards a game and can get his own looks on good efficiency. That’s the best case. And re: Fournier, there are only so many options to match salary. Aaron Gordon and DJ Augustin? Orlando could well want to get out of Evan’s money, even Gordon’s, if they think they can stick Isaac between Hayward and Vucevic as the defensive glue in a high powered offensive frontcourt.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:40 pm
by Slartibartfast
GuyClinch wrote:Hayward will run the show out there - so going to be hard to evaluate him simply because of how he will be a defacto PG. Brown and Tatum are scorers - and not passers. The issue is Hayward and Tatum - both guys need to play the 3. Brown is more of 2 so he can work with either Tatum or Hayward. Though Hayward will make him look better.


Agreed. Hayward's passing ability has become especially critical with Horford gone.

Brown/Tatum is a very strong defensive and scoring wing combo, but the lack of passing and PNR playmaking makes it awkward without high-level facilitating elsewhere.

The key to this team functioning is somebody for Hayward/JB/Tatum being able to beef up and guard/rebound with 4s. Otherwise we are going to be wasting a lot of talent on the bench.

Re: Gordon Hayward Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:30 pm
by 100proof
jmr07019 wrote:Orlando wouldn't trade Gordon for Hayward straight up and you want them to throw their starting SG into the deal too!?



Yeah, I disagree.

in a vacuum, neither of those 2 are worth what Hayward is.

Add to that Orlando has resigned Ross, whom they really like, Drafted Isaac, resigned Vucevic and signed Aminu and you now have 3 more guys who play Gordons position (potentially)

ORlando has also needed someone to run the offense there for some time, a big plus of Haywards game is that he can do that when there is not a traditional point guard on the floor.

Augustine/Fultz
Ross
Hayward
Isaac
Vucevic

A far better suited and rounded lineup than the opposed.