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Gordon Hayward Thread

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1561 » by Andrew McCeltic » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:07 pm

Hayward said he’s been able to do his usual pre-injury offseason regimen, which is a good sign. It will be an interesting year if he’s finally healthy, both for how it impacts the offense and the questions it raises about winning now vs. committing to youth.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1562 » by Curmudgeon » Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:54 pm

Well, one day we have a puff piece in the Globe about Tacko Fall, then we have a puff piece about Gordon Hayward. Puff puff puff. I can't wait for the season to begin to see what's puffery and what's real.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1563 » by GregB » Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:17 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:Well, one day we have a puff piece in the Globe about Tacko Fall, then we have a puff piece about Gordon Hayward. Puff puff puff. I can't wait for the season to begin to see what's puffery and what's real.


Agreed.

For me the sign Gordon is back if he can take body contact on drives and still slam the ball. If he can get back to driving to the hoop like that. Then I will believe the puff.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1564 » by FutureIsGreen » Wed Nov 6, 2019 3:43 am

Think I'll spend my night laughing through this. Remind myself why staying positive is the better path to walk.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1565 » by FutureIsGreen » Wed Nov 6, 2019 3:49 am

itrsteve wrote:I’m glad we’ll keep this thread as a record of all the sad sacks that want him traded.

You’ll all eat crow this year.



Kudos to you. Credit where its deserved. Cant wait to read back in here tonight.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1566 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Nov 6, 2019 4:04 am

No Morris, no Rozier, no Kyrie means more Gordon and more team-oriented play.

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1567 » by Jaqua92 » Wed Nov 6, 2019 5:25 am

FutureIsGreen wrote:Think I'll spend my night laughing through this. Remind myself why staying positive is the better path to walk.
And I'll spend my night being happy about Gordon improving.

Isnt being realistic and prepared for both positive and negative outcomes the best path to walk?
There are no losers here...only winners, because Gordon is playing well and was fantastic tonight. He also shot over 80%? Gordon is improving and looks at least 80% of his Utah self.

Celebrate that, instead of Gordon proving the more pessimistic fans wrong.

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1568 » by FlatearthZorro » Wed Nov 6, 2019 6:23 am

Haywards been our best player, hes shooting 56 from the field, 50 from 3, over 21 pts a game, 7.5 boards, 4.3 assists. I like that he isnt and doesnt have to be ball dominant to assist and score. Oh and I told you Hayward is gonna ball this season.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1569 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Nov 6, 2019 9:45 am

From May, post-Bucks:

zoyathedestroya wrote:
threrf23 wrote:I get the sense that Gordo plays off of his teammates' energy to some effect. At least, that is how I am rationalizing his performance against the Bucks.

Up until the Bucks series I thought he was getting critiqued unfairly. Not only was he recovering from his leg injury, but he has always been the type to make quiet contributions that easily go unnoticed. Even on a bad night, he is generally in the right spots and makes the right decisions. Statistically, all stats considered, he had a better year last year than many presume.

I remember after he was signed, a Jazz fan came here and told us that part of the reason he was so successful in Utah, was because the Jazz had designed their entire offense around him. We don't need to design our offense around him, but it is our coaching staff's responsibility to make sure that he lives up to potential next season.

Compared his PER36 numbers this season (72 games) and his last season in Utah (73 games).

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He was really bad shooting the three-ball prior to February. It was at 38.7% since February 1. Everything else was pretty close. The point production was never going to be the same even if healthy considering he was the #1 guy in Utah. Boston had Kyrie, Tatum, and Brown to carry the scoring load. Then you had guys like Morris and Rozier who took away touches and shots from him whenever they shared the floor. He was taking 4 FGAs (per 36 mins) less in Boston. His ppg will naturally decrease.

For an entire year where he was still getting back into game shape after his second surgery, where his role isn't clearly defined due to overlaps, where he didn't want to step on anybody's toes ("walking on eggshells" was the phrase being thrown around), where Rozier (contrary to TRo's claims) has the ball in his hands on the second unit more often than not, those numbers are pretty good.

We wouldn't see the real potential of Hayward until the roles and usage on the team are sorted out. We had an opportunity to do that by at least trading Rozier but Danny inexplicably stood pat.

I don't expect Celtics fans to come out impressed with Hayward's performance last season. But reducing him to "eh, didn't score much, wasn't aggressive enough" without looking at his other contributions and the context in which he made those contributions is foolhardy. We saw glimpses of what he can be when given the right role and opportunity. I am hopeful for next season if they intend to keep him and we Marie Kondo the **** out of our roster.

Speaking of glimpses, Hayward was one of only 14 guys in the entire league (only Celtic) who had multiple 30-point games in under 30 minutes. The scorer in him is still there.

If Kyrie returns, I like the Manu role for Hayward. But Cs have to almost exclusively let him handle the ball whenever Kyrie and Horford sit. He remains the best playmaker within Brad's system imo.


Two of Hayward's four best career regular season games came LAST YEAR -- @Golden State and @Minnesota. People just focused on nights when he "disappeared". Bottomline, issue was opportunity and touches. We had too many mouths to feed last season and there was no way he would thrive in an offense constantly getting shortcircuited by iso artists and where he is down the food chain behind guys like Rozier and Morris most nights. But he still contributed and posted numbers better than his last year in Utah (apart from points/3FG%). He improved even more post-ASB.

Increase his usage, increase his production. It's not a surprise that his best game in a Cs uniform came when the only other real options on offense were Kemba and Tatum (no Brown, no Kyrie, no Horford, no Morris, no Rozier).
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1570 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Nov 6, 2019 10:00 am

The 20 games where Hayward's usage was at their highest last season... Celtics were 17-3. For a variety of reasons (recovering from injury, Kyrie, increasing trade value of the Jays, Mook/TRo on contract years, etc.), these games where he was involved heavily in team's possessions while on the court were too few and far between.



Based on bbref's game score index, Hayward had the best game of his career (UTA and BOS) last night, regular season or playoffs. So maybe he's not "done" yet?
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1571 » by 100proof » Wed Nov 6, 2019 11:08 am

Does anyone on the Boston board really believe Gordos "done"?

We can all debate till the cows come home as to if its better to heavily feature Gordon or the Jays, if Gordon is the most logical trade piece, etc, but I think everyone believe that Gordon is a very good player.

I woild love for the team to land that center that allows for kemba/brown/tatum/hayward to be able to really play well together as starters, but despite the early season success of the team I still have allt of concerns of the front court.

Cleveland had so many offensive rebounds last night. Rob just isnt ready yet and kanter is going to be a backup...and he should be. Need that bigman.

Luckily they are out there
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1572 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Nov 6, 2019 11:13 am

100proof wrote:Does anyone on the Boston board really believe Gordos "done"?

We can all debate till the cows come home as to if its better to heavily feature Gordon or the Jays, if Gordon is the most logical trade piece, etc, but I think everyone believe that Gordon is a very good player.

I woild love for the team to land that center that allows for kemba/brown/tatum/hayward to be able to really play well together as starters, but despite the early season success of the team I still have allt of concerns of the front court.

Cleveland had so many offensive rebounds last night. Rob just isnt ready yet and kanter is going to be a backup...and he should be. Need that bigman.

Luckily they are out there

So your plan is to patch one hole (rebounding) but then in effect create a new hole (playmaking)?

And yes, there are posters who think he's toast. See voting here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1890354
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1573 » by 100proof » Wed Nov 6, 2019 12:38 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
100proof wrote:Does anyone on the Boston board really believe Gordos "done"?

We can all debate till the cows come home as to if its better to heavily feature Gordon or the Jays, if Gordon is the most logical trade piece, etc, but I think everyone believe that Gordon is a very good player.

I woild love for the team to land that center that allows for kemba/brown/tatum/hayward to be able to really play well together as starters, but despite the early season success of the team I still have allt of concerns of the front court.

Cleveland had so many offensive rebounds last night. Rob just isnt ready yet and kanter is going to be a backup...and he should be. Need that bigman.

Luckily they are out there

So your plan is to patch one hole (rebounding) but then in effect create a new hole (playmaking)?

And yes, there are posters who think he's toast. See voting here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1890354


I dont believe that losing his playmaking really hurts the team or creates a hole. Jaylen is becoming a fantastic playmaker, and I argue that with Jaylen playing last night Hayward doesnt have as nice a game.

Kemba
Smart
Jaylen
Tatum
and a little from
Edwards
GWilliams

That is enough playmaking imo


EDIT: I forgot about Langford as well.


And it was only 16 posters, and they may end up being right, I mean Hayward had a couple of monster games last season too.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1574 » by Jingles » Wed Nov 6, 2019 2:26 pm

Neither Tatum nor Jaylen are very good passers yet and are still far better at creating offense for themselves. Hayward is probably the best facilitator on the team in the same way that Horford has been in the past—not always with flashy assists but by moving the ball and almost always making the right pass at the right time. Unless the big they were getting back is someone on that level, losing Hayward would absolutely create a hole.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1575 » by CeltsfaninDC » Wed Nov 6, 2019 2:34 pm

Jaqua92 wrote:
FutureIsGreen wrote:Think I'll spend my night laughing through this. Remind myself why staying positive is the better path to walk.
And I'll spend my night being happy about Gordon improving.

Isnt being realistic and prepared for both positive and negative outcomes the best path to walk?
There are no losers here...only winners, because Gordon is playing well and was fantastic tonight. He also shot over 80%? Gordon is improving and looks at least 80% of his Utah self.

Celebrate that, instead of Gordon proving the more pessimistic fans wrong.

No, I’m petty like that. Apologies are accepted though.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1576 » by 100proof » Wed Nov 6, 2019 3:07 pm

Jingles wrote:Neither Tatum nor Jaylen are very good passers yet and are still far better at creating offense for themselves. Hayward is probably the best facilitator on the team in the same way that Horford has been in the past—not always with flashy assists but by moving the ball and almost always making the right pass at the right time. Unless the big they were getting back is someone on that level, losing Hayward would absolutely create a hole.



Have you seen Jaylen this summer/into the season so far? he is much improved there. Jayson hasnt had to so far in his career but can. And then there is Kemba and Smart. they are more than capable playmakers.

This notion of "Making the right pass at the right time" is non sense. Players who make the right plays are what matters, it may be a pass, it may be a shot. But claiming that you need player "x" because they "make the right pass at the right time?" What does that even mean? They passed to an open player? Thats what every player should do if they are being coached properly.

But yeah, Goron has been playing great, and I want to keep him on the team, but team still needs a center. and a good one. and he is the most logical trade piece to try and get that center. I would rather take a gamble on someone like Christian Wood/ Giles/ Maker etc and keep the rest of the roster intact, but that may not be the plan.

I also know that once Brown comes back Haywards numbers will go down, its simple math.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1577 » by FutureIsGreen » Wed Nov 6, 2019 7:47 pm

Jaqua92 wrote:
FutureIsGreen wrote:Think I'll spend my night laughing through this. Remind myself why staying positive is the better path to walk.
And I'll spend my night being happy about Gordon improving.

Isnt being realistic and prepared for both positive and negative outcomes the best path to walk?
There are no losers here...only winners, because Gordon is playing well and was fantastic tonight. He also shot over 80%? Gordon is improving and looks at least 80% of his Utah self.

Celebrate that, instead of Gordon proving the more pessimistic fans wrong.

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No not really. Supporting players while they rehab and patiently waiting for them to return to regular form is always the better path. I like your view on it, but the negativity bred from impatience is not needed in the least. Hayward returning to this form was always a when not an If.
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1578 » by brackdan70 » Thu Nov 7, 2019 2:23 am

Maybe now he has enough value we can trade him for g league big and a second rounder and an albatross.
Danny Ainge on Jayson Tatum and rational for not making him available in a trade for Anthony Davis
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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1579 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Nov 8, 2019 2:28 pm

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Re: Gordon Hayward Thread 

Post#1580 » by Floody100 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:02 am

This guy couldn’t come back quick enough. If he doesn’t get injured I genuinely believe we’re 13-1.

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