Gordon Hayward Thread

[itrsteve]

Generally, I don't want to keep Hayward. I just think that his position is too redundant, to pay a 4th option.
However, if we could retain him for 5-yr/$100M; I'd be all for that.

That's fine, just be mindful that options are very limited if you don't want to keep him. Walking at the end of next season doesn't provide much in terms of cap, likely nothing if it gets lowered significantly. A stretch deal of this nature is win-win for both sides.

I'm probably biased as I've always wanted him around anyway.

[Parliament10]

At $34.2M, Hayward probably opts in. Especially in the present NBA economy.
I'll tell ya though. I do Not feel that he was/is worth anywhere near the $128M that we willl end up having paid him.

[ConstableGeneva]

Parl, he broke his **** leg 5 minutes into his Celtics career. Him being worth his contract went out the window the second he snapped his leg into two.

Pending his playoff performance and considering his reduced role, I thought he was terrific this year.

[MagicBagley18]

Yea I mean in no way was he worth the 128 but thats because of the injury half it was ruined right off the bat. this year hayward was a really good player for us. There’s no question - smart decision making and very solid playmaker. His knock is he’s too unselfish and not aggressive at times but that could be a product of who he’s surrounded by.

The leg injury stopped his career from projecting into a perennial all star. He was in that same level as PG and butler going into free agency. Obviously I’d take George over him but he was trending into a wonderful career

[Parliament10]

Parl, he broke his **** leg 5 minutes into his Celtics career. Him being worth his contract went out the window the second he snapped his leg into two.

Pending his playoff performance and considering his reduced role, I thought he was terrific this year.

Yea I mean in no way was he worth the 128 but thats because of the injury half it was ruined right off the bat. this year hayward was a really good player for us. There’s no question - smart decision making and very solid playmaker. His knock is he’s too unselfish and not aggressive at times but that could be a product of who he’s surrounded by.

The leg injury stopped his career from projecting into a perennial all star. He was in that same level as PG and butler going into free agency. Obviously I’d take George over him but he was trending into a wonderful career

Yeah, I hear what you two are saying. It's tough that he broke his leg, and was only good for 1 out of 3 years.
But hey, tough decisions have to be made.

I would have felt a whole lot better if the Celtics had some kind of Injury Clause in that last Contract.
We could have financed a whole team for a season, with his overall salary.

I just feel better moving on from Hayward.
Plus, he's way too passive, and in being so, presents as only a 4th Option.

[CelticsPride18]

Parl, he broke his **** leg 5 minutes into his Celtics career. Him being worth his contract went out the window the second he snapped his leg into two.

Pending his playoff performance and considering his reduced role, I thought he was terrific this year.

Yea I mean in no way was he worth the 128 but thats because of the injury half it was ruined right off the bat. this year hayward was a really good player for us. There’s no question - smart decision making and very solid playmaker. His knock is he’s too unselfish and not aggressive at times but that could be a product of who he’s surrounded by.

The leg injury stopped his career from projecting into a perennial all star. He was in that same level as PG and butler going into free agency. Obviously I’d take George over him but he was trending into a wonderful career

Yeah, I hear what you two are saying. It's tough that he broke his leg, and was only good for 1 out of 3 years.
But hey, tough decisions have to be made.

I would have felt a whole lot better if the Celtics had some kind of Injury Clause in that last Contract.
We could have financed a whole team for a season, with his overall salary.

I just feel better moving on from Hayward.
Plus, he's way too passive, and in being so, presents as only a 4th Option.

We have no cap space even if we let him go.

[bucknersrevenge]

Parl, he broke his **** leg 5 minutes into his Celtics career. Him being worth his contract went out the window the second he snapped his leg into two.

Pending his playoff performance and considering his reduced role, I thought he was terrific this year.

Yea I mean in no way was he worth the 128 but thats because of the injury half it was ruined right off the bat. this year hayward was a really good player for us. There’s no question - smart decision making and very solid playmaker. His knock is he’s too unselfish and not aggressive at times but that could be a product of who he’s surrounded by.

The leg injury stopped his career from projecting into a perennial all star. He was in that same level as PG and butler going into free agency. Obviously I’d take George over him but he was trending into a wonderful career

Yeah, I hear what you two are saying. It's tough that he broke his leg, and was only good for 1 out of 3 years.
But hey, tough decisions have to be made.

I would have felt a whole lot better if the Celtics had some kind of Injury Clause in that last Contract.
We could have financed a whole team for a season, with his overall salary.

I just feel better moving on from Hayward.
Plus, he's way too passive, and in being so, presents as only a 4th Option.

We have no cap space even if we let him go.

That's really the position. We're over the cap and about to become an even more expensive team soon. If we lose him, what do we replace his skillset with (even as a 4th option) with considering we will have almost no financial flexibility?

[Parliament10]

Yeah, I hear what you two are saying. It's tough that he broke his leg, and was only good for 1 out of 3 years.
But hey, tough decisions have to be made.

I would have felt a whole lot better if the Celtics had some kind of Injury Clause in that last Contract.
We could have financed a whole team for a season, with his overall salary.

I just feel better moving on from Hayward.
Plus, he's way too passive, and in being so, presents as only a 4th Option.

We have no cap space even if we let him go.

That's really the position. We're over the cap and about to become an even more expensive team soon. If we lose him, what do we replace his skillset with (even as a 4th option) with considering we will have almost no financial flexibility?

IMHO, Hayward is redundant. And therefore, he doesn't need to be replaced.
If anything, we need a better option at the 4/(Small Ball 5); and let Tatum play the 3/4.

I just do not want Hayward, going forward. -- I'd rather severe ties.
Trade him, if possible. But, I'm fine with him walking.

[CelticsPride18]

We have no cap space even if we let him go.

That's really the position. We're over the cap and about to become an even more expensive team soon. If we lose him, what do we replace his skillset with (even as a 4th option) with considering we will have almost no financial flexibility?

IMHO, Hayward is redundant. And therefore, he doesn't need to be replaced.
If anything, we need a better option at the 4/(Small Ball 5); and let Tatum play the 3/4.

I just do not want Hayward, going forward. -- I'd rather severe ties.
Trade him, if possible. But, I'm fine with him walking.

We play much better when he’s on the lineup.

[24istheLAW]

Yea I mean in no way was he worth the 128 but thats because of the injury half it was ruined right off the bat. this year hayward was a really good player for us. There’s no question - smart decision making and very solid playmaker. His knock is he’s too unselfish and not aggressive at times but that could be a product of who he’s surrounded by.

The leg injury stopped his career from projecting into a perennial all star. He was in that same level as PG and butler going into free agency. Obviously I’d take George over him but he was trending into a wonderful career

Paul George was always the guy out of Hayward/George/Butler who you could project to age gracefully. Best pure shooter, PF frame.

I agree that Gordon is a valuable piece, and most certainly not "redundant" as someone else stated. But I don't think the Celtics can afford to pay him competitively after next season at all. He's a luxury in his current role.

Right now, Gordo fills the role of being a glue guy who keeps the starting lineup humming, and runs offense for young guns like Tatum and Brown, who aren't natural at that, and scores here and there where it presents itself. I think another team that would ask Gordo to score more, would offer him big money.

I don't want to pay for Gordo's scoring ability, when we aren't actually using it. If there's a playoffs this year, and he proves that having him as a scorer in our back pocket is valuable in a way that you don't see in the regular season, maybe I'd change my stance. But as long as we have Jaylen on the wing, who doesn't like to handle/distribute but likes to finish, we are using Gordo to feed Jaylen to some degree, and it just doesn't add up in terms of how you best allocate your money.

[Parliament10]

That's really the position. We're over the cap and about to become an even more expensive team soon. If we lose him, what do we replace his skillset with (even as a 4th option) with considering we will have almost no financial flexibility?

IMHO, Hayward is redundant. And therefore, he doesn't need to be replaced.
If anything, we need a better option at the 4/(Small Ball 5); and let Tatum play the 3/4.

I just do not want Hayward, going forward. -- I'd rather severe ties.
Trade him, if possible. But, I'm fine with him walking.

We play much better when he’s on the lineup.

While this is True. I think that his pricetag is way too high.
And again, he's a Starting Wing. Which we don't need; as we have Jaylen & Jayson.

[bucknersrevenge]

IMHO, Hayward is redundant. And therefore, he doesn't need to be replaced.
If anything, we need a better option at the 4/(Small Ball 5); and let Tatum play the 3/4.

I just do not want Hayward, going forward. -- I'd rather severe ties.
Trade him, if possible. But, I'm fine with him walking.

We play much better when he’s on the lineup.

While this is True. I think that his pricetag is way too high.
And again, he's a Starting Wing. Which we don't need; as we have Jaylen & Jayson.

Don't tell Brad that. In his mind, the more the merrier. His lineups are ideally 1 primary ballhandler, 3 versatile wings, and 1 big. You take Hayward away and we're missing a wing with no one to fill the spot.

[Parliament10]

We play much better when he’s on the lineup.

While this is True. I think that his pricetag is way too high.
And again, he's a Starting Wing. Which we don't need; as we have Jaylen & Jayson.

Don't tell Brad that. In his mind, the more the merrier. His lineups are ideally 1 primary ballhandler, 3 versatile wings, and 1 big. You take Hayward away and we're missing a wing with no one to fill the spot.

Isn't it more like, 2 ballhandlers, 2 wings/swings and 1 Big?
Cause Hayward is technically a secondary ballhandler, as is Smart.

Also seems like there's 2 ballhandlers in each Unit.

[bucknersrevenge]

While this is True. I think that his pricetag is way too high.
And again, he's a Starting Wing. Which we don't need; as we have Jaylen & Jayson.

Don't tell Brad that. In his mind, the more the merrier. His lineups are ideally 1 primary ballhandler, 3 versatile wings, and 1 big. You take Hayward away and we're missing a wing with no one to fill the spot.

Isn't it more like, 2 ballhandlers, 2 wings/swings and 1 Big?
Cause Hayward is technically a secondary ballhandler, as is Smart.

Also seems like there's 2 ballhandlers in each Unit.

That's fair. Although it seems he likes for that 2nd ballhandler to be a bigger one, a hybrid if you will, that can still switch up. He likes long, strong wings that can switch the traditional 2-4 spots on defense so size and wingspan is a thing for him. I don't disagree that Hayward costs too much. I think he's likely to resign at a lower amount moving forward to stay so that should help. Ignore the pricetag though for a second. His skillset is uniquely different from Jayson and Jaylen's which is what makes him an excellent complement to them, much like Smart is a complement. If you were to replace Hayward, I would want a player with that same skillset.

[ConstableGeneva]

Don't tell Brad that. In his mind, the more the merrier. His lineups are ideally 1 primary ballhandler, 3 versatile wings, and 1 big. You take Hayward away and we're missing a wing with no one to fill the spot.

Isn't it more like, 2 ballhandlers, 2 wings/swings and 1 Big?
Cause Hayward is technically a secondary ballhandler, as is Smart.

Also seems like there's 2 ballhandlers in each Unit.

That's fair. Although it seems he likes for that 2nd ballhandler to be a bigger one, a hybrid if you will, that can still switch up. He likes long, strong wings that can switch the traditional 2-4 spots on defense so size and wingspan is a thing for him. I don't disagree that Hayward costs too much. I think he's likely to resign at a lower amount moving forward to stay so that should help. Ignore the pricetag though for a second. His skillset is uniquely different from Jayson and Jaylen's which is what makes him an excellent complement to them, much like Smart is a complement. If you were to replace Hayward, I would want a player with that same skillset.

I would get crucified for this opinion, but from a basketball standpoint, I'd rather have a starting lineup of Hayward-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis/C replacement. Ramp up Gordon's scoring (who's been more efficient all over the floor) to replace Kemba's. Defensively, you have a bigger team overall that can switch 1 thru 5 basically. On offense, you have two really good ballhandlers in Smart and Hayward. Tatum is growing into one too soon enough.

I just don't think Ainge will trade Kemba (I don't want to trade Kemba either) after just signing him last summer. So my idea is moot. If they get into a financial crunch and Hayward is looking to get paid, he's clearly the one to go.

[big-shot-ROB]

Isn't it more like, 2 ballhandlers, 2 wings/swings and 1 Big?
Cause Hayward is technically a secondary ballhandler, as is Smart.

Also seems like there's 2 ballhandlers in each Unit.

That's fair. Although it seems he likes for that 2nd ballhandler to be a bigger one, a hybrid if you will, that can still switch up. He likes long, strong wings that can switch the traditional 2-4 spots on defense so size and wingspan is a thing for him. I don't disagree that Hayward costs too much. I think he's likely to resign at a lower amount moving forward to stay so that should help. Ignore the pricetag though for a second. His skillset is uniquely different from Jayson and Jaylen's which is what makes him an excellent complement to them, much like Smart is a complement. If you were to replace Hayward, I would want a player with that same skillset.

I would get crucified for this opinion, but from a basketball standpoint, I'd rather have a starting lineup of Hayward-Smart-Brown-Tatum-Theis/C replacement. Ramp up Gordon's scoring (who's been more efficient all over the floor) to replace Kemba's. Defensively, you have a bigger team overall that can switch 1 thru 5 basically. On offense, you have two really good ballhandlers in Smart and Hayward. Tatum is growing into one too soon enough.

I just don't think Ainge will trade Kemba (I don't want to trade Kemba either) after just signing him last summer. So my idea is moot. If they get into a financial crunch and Hayward is looking to get paid, he's clearly the one to go.

One of my problems with the signing of Kemba was that I think it caps you as a team. Our problem right now is not that Hayward is our 4th option (actually, that's no even a problem. That's better than 95% of the league). The problem is our 1A and 1B are Walker and a still young Tatum. We are not contending (jury still out but we are not Bucks, LAL teams level) because we don't have depth but because our top end talent just isn't enought.

That's been the problem with Portland every year. Yeah, you guys are awesome as a team. But with Lillard and McCollum your ceiling is capped, specially defensively.

I play a lot of 2K MyLeague and usually trade Kemba whenever I have the possibility (draft night). The last two years of that contract are bad given the defensive problems he gives you.

But in real life Kemba is an awesome human being, a great leader and example for the youngsters, a cheerful input into the locker room and while he wasn't greatly efficient this year you just can't trade him like that.

That's why letting Hayward walk makes no sense whatsoever. You are loosing that cap space, and we are not contending right now with our 1A and 1B. Hayward's game is going to age very gracefully. He was horrible finishing in "athletic" manners at the rim and still was able to shot 75% in that area (for reference: Brown 71%, Tatum 61%, LeBron 72%, Giannis 76%).
He was consistently top 30 in all advanced metrics (VORP, BPM, WS, OWS, OBPM, TS%).

The only problem with Hayward I have right now is that the leg injury really **** him up mentally and he crunches in big situations or when he starts games slow. He's totaly over-aware of himself and will get down on himself if he misses two shots or something alike.

Otherwise he was our 2nd best player along with Kembla this season, only dethroned because Tatum is god and he should make an all-defensive team this year and will probably be All-Nba the next one.

[ConstableGeneva]

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[hugepatsfan]

I think the team needs to view themselves in two separate windows:

1) the next 3 seasons after the conclusion of this one
2) the future beyond that

As of right now, assuming Tatum's max extension happens, all we'd have on the books 3 offseasons from now would be Tatum, Brown, RFA cap holds for 2019 draft picks, rookie deals for draft picks from this year on.

I would not be signing anyone to any deal that impacts that. Set yourself up for financial flexibility in that offseason to get a good, young player to make part of the core with Tatum/Brown moving forward. Or if you can't land a great player then look to sign a few good players with youth/upside that could be used to facilitate trades.

The tough calls to make in the meantime there are Hayward, Theis, Smart and potentially Robert Williams.

Hayward seems likely to opt in. My ideal scenario though would be an opt out and then a new 3 year deal. Lines him up perfectly in that window. If he opts in, then I'd want to re-sign him next year but only for 2 years. Even if that means overpaying in salary to limit he length of the deal. Wyc needs to be willing to pay the tax in order to keep Hayward but I really hope he would. Keeping Hayward is the only option we have to realistically have a 4th all star-ish caliber player with Tatum/Brown/Kemba the next 3 years. We want Brown/Tatum to be recruiting other guys to come here instead of getting recruited to go there. Continuing to consistently compete is crucial to that.

Theis is a tough call as it relates to Hayward. If Wyc is convinced to pay a heavy tax to keep Hayward then Theis is a near-certain financial casualty. If Hayward is allowed to walk, then Theis is most likely re-signed.

Smart is the toughest call. 2 years from now he'll be hitting FA going into his age 28 season. Signing him long term would likely limit our ability to pursue any big time FAs.

Robert Williams will be an RFA in 2 years. Right now, he hasn't proven enough to hurt the financial flexibility but if he develops well that could always change.

As of now, the FA class 3 years from now includes Embiid, Jokic, Beal, Porzingis, Myles Turner, D'Angelo Russell, Capela. With Tatum/Brown in place we'd be in good position to hopefully recruit one of them. It'd be nice to have the flexibility to pursue one of them to go with Tatum/Brown long-term. And we don't have to sacrifice winning in the next 3 years to do so. Just gotta be smart with who we extend beyond that window.

[Parliament10]

I think the team needs to view themselves in two separate windows:

1) the next 3 seasons after the conclusion of this one
2) the future beyond that

As of right now, assuming Tatum's max extension happens, all we'd have on the books 3 offseasons from now would be Tatum, Brown, RFA cap holds for 2019 draft picks, rookie deals for draft picks from this year on.

I would not be signing anyone to any deal that impacts that. Set yourself up for financial flexibility in that offseason to get a good, young player to make part of the core with Tatum/Brown moving forward. Or if you can't land a great player then look to sign a few good players with youth/upside that could be used to facilitate trades.

The tough calls to make in the meantime there are Hayward, Theis, Smart and potentially Robert Williams.

Hayward seems likely to opt in. My ideal scenario though would be an opt out and then a new 3 year deal. Lines him up perfectly in that window. If he opts in, then I'd want to re-sign him next year but only for 2 years. Even if that means overpaying in salary to limit he length of the deal. Wyc needs to be willing to pay the tax in order to keep Hayward but I really hope he would. Keeping Hayward is the only option we have to realistically have a 4th all star-ish caliber player with Tatum/Brown/Kemba the next 3 years. We want Brown/Tatum to be recruiting other guys to come here instead of getting recruited to go there. Continuing to consistently compete is crucial to that.

Theis is a tough call as it relates to Hayward. If Wyc is convinced to pay a heavy tax to keep Hayward then Theis is a near-certain financial casualty. If Hayward is allowed to walk, then Theis is most likely re-signed.

Smart is the toughest call. 2 years from now he'll be hitting FA going into his age 28 season. Signing him long term would likely limit our ability to pursue any big time FAs.

Robert Williams will be an RFA in 2 years. Right now, he hasn't proven enough to hurt the financial flexibility but if he develops well that could always change.

As of now, the FA class 3 years from now includes Embiid, Jokic, Beal, Porzingis, Myles Turner, D'Angelo Russell, Capela. With Tatum/Brown in place we'd be in good position to hopefully recruit one of them. It'd be nice to have the flexibility to pursue one of them to go with Tatum/Brown long-term. And we don't have to sacrifice winning in the next 3 years to do so. Just gotta be smart with who we extend beyond that window.

I've been against keeping Hayward going past this season.
But Smart, Theis, & possibly R. Williams, are considered parts of the core, to certain degrees.

Smart in particular, I think that you have to keep. He's our Swiss-knife-6th-Man.
It's really good to have someone of Smart's caliber, backing you up.

[hugepatsfan]

I think the team needs to view themselves in two separate windows:

1) the next 3 seasons after the conclusion of this one
2) the future beyond that

As of right now, assuming Tatum's max extension happens, all we'd have on the books 3 offseasons from now would be Tatum, Brown, RFA cap holds for 2019 draft picks, rookie deals for draft picks from this year on.

I would not be signing anyone to any deal that impacts that. Set yourself up for financial flexibility in that offseason to get a good, young player to make part of the core with Tatum/Brown moving forward. Or if you can't land a great player then look to sign a few good players with youth/upside that could be used to facilitate trades.

The tough calls to make in the meantime there are Hayward, Theis, Smart and potentially Robert Williams.

Hayward seems likely to opt in. My ideal scenario though would be an opt out and then a new 3 year deal. Lines him up perfectly in that window. If he opts in, then I'd want to re-sign him next year but only for 2 years. Even if that means overpaying in salary to limit he length of the deal. Wyc needs to be willing to pay the tax in order to keep Hayward but I really hope he would. Keeping Hayward is the only option we have to realistically have a 4th all star-ish caliber player with Tatum/Brown/Kemba the next 3 years. We want Brown/Tatum to be recruiting other guys to come here instead of getting recruited to go there. Continuing to consistently compete is crucial to that.

Theis is a tough call as it relates to Hayward. If Wyc is convinced to pay a heavy tax to keep Hayward then Theis is a near-certain financial casualty. If Hayward is allowed to walk, then Theis is most likely re-signed.

Smart is the toughest call. 2 years from now he'll be hitting FA going into his age 28 season. Signing him long term would likely limit our ability to pursue any big time FAs.

Robert Williams will be an RFA in 2 years. Right now, he hasn't proven enough to hurt the financial flexibility but if he develops well that could always change.

As of now, the FA class 3 years from now includes Embiid, Jokic, Beal, Porzingis, Myles Turner, D'Angelo Russell, Capela. With Tatum/Brown in place we'd be in good position to hopefully recruit one of them. It'd be nice to have the flexibility to pursue one of them to go with Tatum/Brown long-term. And we don't have to sacrifice winning in the next 3 years to do so. Just gotta be smart with who we extend beyond that window.

I've been against keeping Hayward going past this season.
But Smart, Theis, & possibly R. Williams, are considered parts of the core, to certain degrees.

Smart in particular, I think that you have to keep. He's our Swiss-knife-6th-Man.
It's really good to have someone of Smart's caliber, backing you up.

I love Smart too. But you said it there, it's good to have Smart "backing you up". He's backing us up now because Hayward and Kemba are here. They're both getting into their 30s. They're not going to be top of the roster guys forever. At some point we're going to replace them with new guys atop the roster alongside Tatum/Brown if we want to keep competing at the highest level. There are three ways to add players - draft, trade, free agency. If we extend Smart past his current deal by more than a year it's going to likely eliminate one of those avenues to land a top player.

Now, to be fair, Smart would still be relatively young and movable. So you could always extend him but understand that if the possibility to sign an Embiid/Jokic/etc. comes up you can move him to another team with cap space. That's what happened with Avery Bradley when we signed Hayward (not exactly because we were able to take Morris back but you get the idea).

Overall I'm just targeting three years from now as that next "transition" year. That's when I think we need to target to start looking to making big moves to transition to another contending core with Tatum/Brown. Their careers here hopefully last past the shelf life of the current core.