4th greatest celtic player

DavorFanCroatia · Post #21 » by **DavorFanCroatia** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:28 am

4th Cousy, 5th Pierce, 6th Cowens, 7th S.Jones 8th McHale 9th Garnett 10th Heinsohn 11th Sharman 12th Parish 13th White 14th Johnson 15th Archibald

DavorFanCroatia · Post #22 » by **DavorFanCroatia** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:29 am

And yes....please these are our legends...spell their name's right, Its Parish not Parrish and its Heinsohn not Hiensohn

JJHondo17 · Post #23 » by **JJHondo17** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:42 pm

The further we get down the list, the more contentious we might get about the rankings. The 1st 3 were easy, I'd even say #4 is a no-brainer although I certainly can see cases being made for Cowens and McHale as well as Cousy. Many people will have strong and legitimate cases to make in slots 5 - 10.

SLCceltic · Post #24 » by **SLCceltic** » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:01 pm

Personal sentiment aside ... Without question the top 5 greatest Celtic talents of all-time are :

Russell
Bird
KG
Kyrie
Truth

Jammer · Post #25 » by **Jammer** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:23 am

It's amazing how little Celtics fans know about the greatness of some of their past players.
Elrod devoted a lot of detail to Cousy so I will focus on the remainder of the Top 12 Candidates.

Dave Cowens: Best 8 years w/Celtics averaged 19 ppg, 15 rpg, 4 apg. League MVP, All-Star Game MVP.
3X All-NBA 2nd Team (one of 10 best players in NBA), 1X 1rst Team All-Defense, 2X 2nd Team All-Defense

Sam Jones: The guy who took the last shot for 10 NBA Champions, despite being a starter for only 8 of those teams.
3X 2nd Team All-NBA (one of 10 best players in NBA). It's amazing that as early as 1959 Auerbach designed a play for Sam Jones to take the last one in a game, when Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman and Bill Russell, 3 Celtics, were 1rst Team ALL-NBA that year.

Tom Heinsohn: 8 Championships in 9 seasons, 4X 2nd Team All-NBA (one of 10 best players in NBA)

Bill Sharman: 4 Championships, All-Star Game MVP
4X All-NBA 1rst Team (1 of 5 best players in NBA), 3X 2nd Team All-NBA (1 of 10 best players in NBA)

Kevin McHale - 3 Championships, 3X 1rst Team All-Defense, 2X 2nd Team All-Defense

Robert Parish - 3 Celtic Championships, 1X 2nd Team All-NBA (one of the 10 best players in the league)

Paul Pierce - 1 Championship, Finals MVP, 1X 2nd Team All-NBA (one of 10 best players in league)

JoJo White - 2 Championships, Finals MVP, 2X 2nd Team All-NBA (one of 10 best players in league)

Note: All-NBA voting is nowadays dominated by the press. But way back when only players could vote on the Top 10 players in the League, they named Dave Cowens, Tommy Heinsohn, Sam Jones, Bill Sharman, JoJo White (as well as Russell, Havlicek, and Cousy) to 1rst or 2nd Team All-NBA.

To put how good some of these players were in perspective, I think that a Celtic Team that would absolutely knock the crap out of Golden State would be Dave Cowens, Larry Bird, Sam Jones, Kyrie Irving and EITHER Paul Pierce or John Havlicek.

Elrod is Back · Post #26 » by **Elrod is Back** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:11 am

Ed Pinkney wrote:I would say it is probably Cousy.

Cowens and Pierce are worthy choices (and were probably both "better" players), but when you are talking "greatest" and you consider context, pioneering contributions, achievements etc, I think it has to be Cousy.

Watch on YouTube

this is really incredible. Nick Nolte is terrific with the ad libs.

SMTBSI · Post #27 » by **SMTBSI** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:25 am

Elrod convinced me of Cousy. But, completely apart from that, I think that if there's basically a tie, the older player should get the nod, just out of respect. For putting in their dues, and helping get the game to where it is today.

That's not really a good argument I know. Just how I feel. There's got to be some benefit to getting old, right?

Pierce will be very worthy at #5.

Taget · Post #28 » by **Taget** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:28 am

Hell. I wanted Cousy for #3. Got my vote again.

Watch on YouTube

Domenico · Post #29 » by **Domenico** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:05 am

Can be only Tommy. Only celtic who should be inducted in the Hall of Fame three times.
Also, he's the heart and soul of the franchise and bleeds green more than anyone else.

Fencer reregistered · Post #30 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:20 am

SMTBSI wrote:
Pierce will be very worthy at #5.

Yeah. I'm not going with Cowens over Pierce. I know he was the better player of the two. But his career was a lot shorter, and he sort of quit on the team once even before it ended (the taxicab-driver stint).

Also, Pierce gets a lot of credit from me for somehow maintaining the importance of Celtics mystique when nobody else in a position of functional responsibility seemed to care. In that respect, he was actually Red's successor, even though we normally think of Red's successor in substance being Tommy or Ainge.

BostonCouchGM · Post #31 » by **BostonCouchGM** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:51 am

so greatest Celtic doesn't mean greatest player right? Because Bird is clearly the best player. But I suppose with the championships, the coaching plus the stats, Bill gets the #1 spot for best Celtic. So by that measure, Cousy would get the #4 nod despite Cowens being the better player.

RLPH · Post #32 » by **RLPH** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:12 pm

I voted Pierce. He truly was Boston

m haynes · Post #33 » by **m haynes** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:19 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:so greatest Celtic doesn't mean greatest player right? Because Bird is clearly the best player. But I suppose with the championships, the coaching plus the stats, Bill gets the #1 spot for best Celtic. So by that measure, Cousy would get the #4 nod despite Cowens being the better player.

hhhhhhhhbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!! Russ is the greatest ever..

I loved when Russ was with the legends(ESPN) and they were looking at him like a god. Respect

Gant · Post #34 » by **Gant** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:32 pm

RLPH wrote:I voted Pierce. He truly was Boston

He was, but practically everyone on the list was Boston. Pierce was Boston within more peoples' memories.

Overall, McHale's getting shortchanged a bit. If that guy had retired recently he'd be getting overwhelming accolades.

Cyclical · Post #35 » by **Cyclical** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:51 pm

I love PP but, c'mon now, you can't possibly put him ahead of Cousy. The man was the best point guard of his time.

10 time All-NBA First Team; Led the NBA in assists for 8 straight years; League MVP; 6 chips.

This should be easy.

It's not a "what if he played in this era" question, it's who are the greatest Celtics. I would personally put him ahead of Hondo. He's definitely no lower than 4.

Fencer reregistered · Post #36 » by **Fencer reregistered** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:31 pm

Gant wrote:
RLPH wrote:I voted Pierce. He truly was Boston

He was, but practically everyone on the list was Boston. Pierce was Boston within more peoples' memories.

Overall, McHale's getting shortchanged a bit. If that guy had retired recently he'd be getting overwhelming accolades.

When I participated in a round of RealGM's top 100 list:

-- Russell and Bird were treated fairly -- better than in a more recent round. I would have put them even higher than they went, but they were ranked very high for proper reasons. I think Russell came in at #2 and Bird at #6.
-- I was toward the extreme end of the longevity-vs.-peak tradeoff spectrum. But given where people were on that spectrum, on the whole they viewed Hondo and Pierce fairly. I think Hondo was in the 20s and Pierce in the 30s.
-- I had to argue Cousy's "intangibles" case very, very hard. I think we got him in the early 40s.
-- I had to argue McHale's case fairly hard. People dinged him for lack of rebounding numbers; I pointed out that he played next to Bird and Parish (who were also better outlet passers than he was), who naturally gobbled up a lot of defensive boards. People had also forgotten he was one of the first great bigs to play a lot of perimeter defense or 3-point-line close-outs. He was selected somewhere in the late 40s IIRC.
-- Other people had to educate me about Cowens.

SLCceltic · Post #37 » by **SLCceltic** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:33 pm

What I use to form my opinion of all-time greatest Cs players is to imagine modern players playing in the past .. and past players playing today...

KG in his prime would rival big Russ and Kyrie would run circles around the great Cous

Ray Allen, Kevin McHale, Dave Cowans and even IT (who could avg 40-50 in Cousy's NBA) are all ahead of Cousy IMHO

Jammer · Post #38 » by **Jammer** » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:04 pm

SLCceltic wrote:What I use to form my opinion of all-time greatest Cs players is to imagine modern players playing in the past .. and past players playing today...

KG in his prime would rival big Russ and Kyrie would run circles around the great Cous

Ray Allen, Kevin McHale, Dave Cowans and even IT (who could avg 40-50 in Cousy's NBA) are all ahead of Cousy IMHO

Disagree on KG in his prime. I always thought that KG moved like he had a load of bricks up his a*s.

Russell moved like Iverson, except he was 10 inches taller with arms down to nearly his knees and could high jump 6' 11".

Russell would have had NO difficulty getting 20 rebounds against KG, or anyone else today.

claycarver · Post #39 » by **claycarver** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:17 am

Elrod is Back wrote:
Parliament10 wrote:I think that Pierce is #4, despite only winning one Title.
He really had the Heart of Celtics Nation, and vice-versa.

If we say the competition begins in the year 1993, you have a decent case, maybe even a strong one. And 25 years is a good stretch. Some NBA teams like the Memphis Grizzlies and Charlotte Bobcats/Hornets have not been around that long. But if we say the Cs began in the middle of the 20th century, and between 1956-57 and 1985-86 the dynasty Celtics won 16 NBA championships in 30 seasons, the case for Pierce might possibly weaken just a little itty bit. Just sayin'

My assumption is this is a vote for the best Cs of all-time, not just since 1993. Do I have that wrong?

After reading this post and your previous, I decided to vote for Pierce.

Valid · Post #40 » by **Valid** » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:43 am

Jammer wrote:
SLCceltic wrote:What I use to form my opinion of all-time greatest Cs players is to imagine modern players playing in the past .. and past players playing today...

KG in his prime would rival big Russ and Kyrie would run circles around the great Cous

Ray Allen, Kevin McHale, Dave Cowans and even IT (who could avg 40-50 in Cousy's NBA) are all ahead of Cousy IMHO

Disagree on KG in his prime. I always thought that KG moved like he had a load of bricks up his a*s.

Russell moved like Iverson, except he was 10 inches taller with arms down to nearly his knees and could high jump 6' 11".

Russell would have had NO difficulty getting 20 rebounds against KG, or anyone else today.

Uhh...are you kidding me? Prime KG is quite arguably the most freakish athlete the NBA has ever seen with the ability to play and guard any position. KG didn't even move that badly in Brooklyn; let alone during his prime in Minnesota.

Your take may be one of the worst I have ever seen in terms of describing a player.

It's also pretty ridiculous to say that Russell would have "no difficulty" getting 20 rebounds today. He would still be a fantastic rebounder, but he would likely be averaging around 12-13 boards per game.

Who is the fourth best Celtic player of all time?