ImageImageImage

Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread

Moderators: bisme37, canman1971, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts, Froob, Parliament10, shackles10, snowman

cloverleaf
General Manager
Posts: 9,134
And1: 6,377
Joined: Feb 10, 2007

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#101 » by cloverleaf » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:33 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:If Tatum is going to make a scoring leap this year, it will be covered in the blood of Gordon Hayward. Sorta like clearing away Ron Mercer to allow Pierce to rise.


I think if Morris’ 11 and some of Al’s 11 shots per game are divided between Hayward, Brown and Tatum, it is possible that Kemba gets 17 shots per game like IT/Kyrie, Tatum gets 16, Hayward and Brown 10-12. With 3 more shots Tatum breaks 20 ppg barrier and with 4 more shots Hayward gets 15 ppg and should be happy with role and will want to opt in.

I think where Hayward gets squeezed is if he needs to get moved for Brown to get touches.


Usage is the better metric than shots because of FTs/turnovers using up possessions.

Kyrie and IT were ~30% usage guys. Kemba is too.

Jaylen and Tatum were identical at 22%. Hayward was at 19%, a whopping 9% below his final all-star year at Utah.

Each of those guys is likely to want to be at the 25%-26% usage that Klay, Beal, Middleton and McCollum get. Basically the minimum you need to make an all-star team as an offensive wing barring spectacular team success (like the Atlanta team a few years ago that made Korver an all-star).

The two big chunks of offense that have opened up - Al (19% usage) and Morris (21% usage) - offer some hope for being able to give everybody a bump, but two big caveats there. First, Kanter is a 3rd option usage guy and always has been at ~23%. He's going to eat up more possessions than Al, who was not only low volume as a shooter but exceptionally good at getting other guys shots.

That leaves Morris. But I think Morris' role is going to be almost entirely eaten up by Gordon Hayward (in terms of increased usage and minutes) and JB (increased minutes). Those are going to be the hungriest mouths, I think, with Jaylen hitting RFA and Hayward in an opt-out year.

There is some possibility that Hayward defers/declines his way into the Al Horford role (minus the post-ups), working mainly as a floor spacer and facilitator, but I'm skeptical. If he's trying to return to his norm, that's a clear-cut 2nd option, not a Boris Diaw/Mike Miller. The difference between aiming for another max and slouching towards an MLE for his next contract.

My prediction is that Brad tries to feature Hayward significantly more this season, in part to maximize his offensive value when he'll be playing out of position defensively and in part to pay him back for the financial sacrifice he made to come to Boston. And I think Danny will be cheering all the way to trading him at the deadline.

At which point, the 2nd option usage will be all Tatum's.


It is mathematically pretty tough to give all 5 starters about 25% usage.
User avatar
jmr07019
General Manager
Posts: 8,110
And1: 7,755
Joined: Oct 29, 2009
       

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#102 » by jmr07019 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:34 am

From Smitty's article

· Celtics coach on Tatum: “He’s in the gym all the time. He’s a worker. We gave him clear things to work on for the summer and we already saw him improving at those things. We need more from him on defensive with Al (Horford) gone. He’s up to it.”


From the Globe article

“Driving and getting downhill through contact and being able to finish around the rim is our No. 1 focus,” Hanlen said. “And then consistency when he’s shooting off the dribble or off a full-speed move from the 3-point line. Those are our two things, just getting to the rim and drawing fouls, and finishing when you do get to the rim, and then consistency with threes. We just want him to be more efficient, and we think he will be. He’s as locked in as I’ve ever seen him. He’s very, very locked in.”

..........

We’ve been doing a lot where he’s just not allowed to shoot midrange shots,” Hanlen said.



These things make me very excited for Tatum next year.
Show Love Spread Love
Darth Celtic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 38,603
And1: 17,022
Joined: Jun 26, 2003
Location: Big 3 will crush the east!
     

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#103 » by Darth Celtic » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:14 am

The Comedian wrote:I was reading the gb thread about Tatum (one of the 5 or 6 over the past couple of weeks), and God damn, I've never seen a poster as obsessed with a team quite like Prokorov is with the Celtics.

I'm sure you're reading this, you want a hug or something?

I just realized the only way Prokorov could be any worse at analizing NBA players and teams if it came out he was Dick Vitale's grandson.
MrDollarBills = MrWelchesBets
StojkoVrankovic
RealGM
Posts: 10,721
And1: 9,600
Joined: Nov 29, 2011
 

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#104 » by StojkoVrankovic » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:22 am

Darth Celtic wrote:
The Comedian wrote:I was reading the gb thread about Tatum (one of the 5 or 6 over the past couple of weeks), and God damn, I've never seen a poster as obsessed with a team quite like Prokorov is with the Celtics.

I'm sure you're reading this, you want a hug or something?

I just realized the only way Prokorov could be any worse at analizing NBA players and teams if it came out he was Dick Vitale's grandson.

read his posts on the Nets board. For real, they have one. The Nets have a 50 win floor and we might win 40 games. He is a **** simpleton
RIP texas celtic, 12/10/14 - 12/10/14
Ben-N1ce
RealGM
Posts: 20,884
And1: 19,042
Joined: Jul 18, 2009
       

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#105 » by Ben-N1ce » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:56 am

3D Chess wrote:
Read on Twitter


Here's a Globe article I can't read. Lemme just say this - if JT doesn't improve this season, it's time to fire Drew Hanlen into the sun.


So this summer Tatum and Hanlen have been working to do that. Despite the mild dip in 3-point shooting, Hanlen is not tinkering with Tatum’s form. Instead, the two are focused on a few primary goals. They want him to get to the free throw line more, they want him to take fewer midrange shots, and they want him to take more 3-pointers, even in frenetic settings.

:pray: :nod:
captain green
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,250
And1: 2,664
Joined: Mar 04, 2009
Contact:
         

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#106 » by captain green » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:22 am

This year I suspect he is used alot more for the scoring load. Near 20 ppg. And hopefully all star
Brown's #1 fan on this forum.
GregB
RealGM
Posts: 11,903
And1: 2,975
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Location: South Shore, MA
     

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#107 » by GregB » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:47 am

I think the big difference this year is going to improved passing and ball movement. If we can play with pace. Their will be more shots to go around.
User avatar
Slartibartfast
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,912
And1: 10,060
Joined: Oct 12, 2004
Location: Medieval England, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#108 » by Slartibartfast » Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:35 am

Didn't realize how close Tatum and Beal are through the St. Louis/Hanlen connection.
GregB
RealGM
Posts: 11,903
And1: 2,975
Joined: Sep 21, 2004
Location: South Shore, MA
     

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#109 » by GregB » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:12 am

Slartibartfast wrote:Didn't realize how close Tatum and Beal are through the St. Louis/Hanlen connection.


Through Beal , Tatum basically stalked Hanlen until he was willing to work with him while in HS. Still wonder if we target him.
Curmudgeon
RealGM
Posts: 38,860
And1: 21,863
Joined: Jan 20, 2004
Location: Boston, MA

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#110 » by Curmudgeon » Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:15 am

The only thing that matters is wins. Tatum has to be unselfish, play good defense and make good decisions. If he does that, the points-- and the money-- will come.
"Numbers lie alot. Wins and losses don't lie." - Jerry West
"You are what your record says you are."- Bill Parcells
"Offense sells tickets. Defense wins games. Rebounding wins championships." Pat Summit
Triple7
RealGM
Posts: 10,963
And1: 8,402
Joined: Aug 23, 2018
 

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#111 » by Triple7 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:44 am

Darth Celtic wrote:
The Comedian wrote:I was reading the gb thread about Tatum (one of the 5 or 6 over the past couple of weeks), and God damn, I've never seen a poster as obsessed with a team quite like Prokorov is with the Celtics.

I'm sure you're reading this, you want a hug or something?

I just realized the only way Prokorov could be any worse at analizing NBA players and teams if it came out he was Dick Vitale's grandson.


That guy is really obsessed with the celtics. Don’t know why i even bother responding to that troll. He even said the cavs can get to the playoffs, while the celtics won’t even get in. I can’t wait till we face the nets!
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 37,528
And1: 89,685
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#112 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:05 am

Read on Twitter
cloverleaf
General Manager
Posts: 9,134
And1: 6,377
Joined: Feb 10, 2007

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#113 » by cloverleaf » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:16 am

Slartibartfast wrote:Didn't realize how close Tatum and Beal are through the St. Louis/Hanlen connection.


They both have sons they call 'Deuce'. (Tatum was first.)

https://www.deucebrand.com/blogs/news/bradley-beal-his-son-deuce-beal-washington-wizards
Gomes3PC
General Manager
Posts: 7,701
And1: 3,752
Joined: Feb 10, 2006

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#114 » by Gomes3PC » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:38 am

I believe Beal used to drive Tatum to AAU games. They are extremely tight.
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,465
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#115 » by Feed Your Head » Fri Jul 26, 2019 2:23 pm

While it obviously doesn't guarantee anything, i can promise you Tatum is in Beals ear constantly about playing here.

Will be interesting during FIBA, you'd think the Celtics 4 will be recruiting Beal, but Jaylen and Smart have to know they are the likely pieces that would be going to Washington. Need to hope Hayward balls the hell out in the first half of the year and we can keep Smart in a potential Beal deal.
User avatar
BeanTownBrawler
Veteran
Posts: 2,659
And1: 121
Joined: Sep 20, 2003
Location: BOSTON

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#116 » by BeanTownBrawler » Sun Jul 28, 2019 8:57 am

This whole thing about midrange being inefficient is just the result of math needs who don't actually understand the game and therefore apply limited analysis techniques. If you do a more thorough analysis you find that midrange is a very efficient style for certain players. Imagine having told mj or kawhi not to take midrange jumpers. Tatum is in that category.

https://youtu.be/lZZry6Aed3k

I'm getting sick of our poor management and coaching, just chasing the latest fad
"I have conflicted feelings right now. I mean its great and all, and no way I'd change it, but does anyone else kinda feel that we got luckier than we deserved to get? It almost feels like we're the benefactor of some NBA conspiracy."
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,465
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#117 » by Feed Your Head » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:20 am

BeanTownBrawler wrote:This whole thing about midrange being inefficient is just the result of math needs who don't actually understand the game and therefore apply limited analysis techniques. If you do a more thorough analysis you find that midrange is a very efficient style for certain players. Imagine having told mj or kawhi not to take midrange jumpers. Tatum is in that category.

https://youtu.be/lZZry6Aed3k

I'm getting sick of our poor management and coaching, just chasing the latest fad


Yes, it can be a very efficient shot for certain people. Tatum was one of the least efficient ISO players in the league last year, and sucked from midrange. So no, he is absolutely not in that category. And that is coming from someone who thinks Tatum will be a top 10-15 player, it just won't be as a midrange dominant guy.

It's not a fad, threes and shots at the rim make more sense than contested midrange jumpers. More efficient, better spacing. Of course certain players are exceptions, but they are few and far between.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 37,528
And1: 89,685
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#118 » by zoyathedestroya » Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:58 am

The Comedian wrote:
BeanTownBrawler wrote:This whole thing about midrange being inefficient is just the result of math needs who don't actually understand the game and therefore apply limited analysis techniques. If you do a more thorough analysis you find that midrange is a very efficient style for certain players. Imagine having told mj or kawhi not to take midrange jumpers. Tatum is in that category.

https://youtu.be/lZZry6Aed3k

I'm getting sick of our poor management and coaching, just chasing the latest fad


Yes, it can be a very efficient shot for certain people. Tatum was one of the least efficient ISO players in the league last year, and sucked from midrange. So no, he is absolutely not in that category. And that is coming from someone who thinks Tatum will be a top 10-15 player, it just won't be as a midrange dominant guy.

It's not a fad, threes and shots at the rim make more sense than contested midrange jumpers. More efficient, better spacing. Of course certain players are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Kevin Durant was the most efficient midrange shooter from 16-24 ft. last season, shooting 53.5% at 3.3 FGA/game. He's also near the top from 8-16 ft. at 52.5%. So to match the most efficient midrange shooter in the NBA, you only have to shoot 35.67% from 3, which is just a shade above league average.

There are certain situations within a game where you want your guy (who hopefully is KD-like in the midrange) to take a midrange shot. But generally, an average shooting guy from 3 can be just as efficient, if not more. Math wins.
User avatar
Slartibartfast
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 13,912
And1: 10,060
Joined: Oct 12, 2004
Location: Medieval England, Iowa
Contact:

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#119 » by Slartibartfast » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:06 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
BeanTownBrawler wrote:This whole thing about midrange being inefficient is just the result of math needs who don't actually understand the game and therefore apply limited analysis techniques. If you do a more thorough analysis you find that midrange is a very efficient style for certain players. Imagine having told mj or kawhi not to take midrange jumpers. Tatum is in that category.

https://youtu.be/lZZry6Aed3k

I'm getting sick of our poor management and coaching, just chasing the latest fad


Yes, it can be a very efficient shot for certain people. Tatum was one of the least efficient ISO players in the league last year, and sucked from midrange. So no, he is absolutely not in that category. And that is coming from someone who thinks Tatum will be a top 10-15 player, it just won't be as a midrange dominant guy.

It's not a fad, threes and shots at the rim make more sense than contested midrange jumpers. More efficient, better spacing. Of course certain players are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Kevin Durant was the most efficient midrange shooter from 16-24 ft. last season, shooting 53.5% at 3.3 FGA/game. He's also near the top from 8-16 ft. at 52.5%. So to match the most efficient midrange shooter in the NBA, you only have to shoot 35.67% from 3, which is just a shade above league average.

There are certain situations within a game where you want your guy (who hopefully is KD-like in the midrange) to take a midrange shot. But generally, an average shooting guy from 3 can be just as efficient, if not more. Math wins.


Mid range killers are still valuable though. The way modern defenses are geared to push everything to that spot makes it a great weapon to have.

Esp. in tight games when whistles are less generous and the quality of looks tends to go down.

Tatum's problem is that he settles for the mid-range out of lack of complete comfort with deep range and lack of confidence for challenging the trees in the paint.

His comfort/preference for mid-range gets dangerous when combined with his instinct to be a volume scorer.
cloverleaf
General Manager
Posts: 9,134
And1: 6,377
Joined: Feb 10, 2007

Re: Jayson Tatum 2nd season expectations thread 

Post#120 » by cloverleaf » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:46 pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:
The Comedian wrote:
Yes, it can be a very efficient shot for certain people. Tatum was one of the least efficient ISO players in the league last year, and sucked from midrange. So no, he is absolutely not in that category. And that is coming from someone who thinks Tatum will be a top 10-15 player, it just won't be as a midrange dominant guy.

It's not a fad, threes and shots at the rim make more sense than contested midrange jumpers. More efficient, better spacing. Of course certain players are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Kevin Durant was the most efficient midrange shooter from 16-24 ft. last season, shooting 53.5% at 3.3 FGA/game. He's also near the top from 8-16 ft. at 52.5%. So to match the most efficient midrange shooter in the NBA, you only have to shoot 35.67% from 3, which is just a shade above league average.

There are certain situations within a game where you want your guy (who hopefully is KD-like in the midrange) to take a midrange shot. But generally, an average shooting guy from 3 can be just as efficient, if not more. Math wins.


Mid range killers are still valuable though. The way modern defenses are geared to push everything to that spot makes it a great weapon to have.

Esp. in tight games when whistles are less generous and the quality of looks tends to go down.

Tatum's problem is that he settles for the mid-range out of lack of complete comfort with deep range and lack of confidence for challenging the trees in the paint.

His comfort/preference for mid-range gets dangerous when combined with his instinct to be a volume scorer.


His instinct to be a volume shooter is good. The problem with his midrange shooting is both settling there rather than going hard to the cup and not being efficient at it.

Return to Boston Celtics