Celtics 112 @ Hornets 117 Post-game Notes (9-8)

[PierceFan4ever]

Plastic forum. Y'all need to sack up. It's November.

Delusional

This roster couldn’t even sniff 2008 jock. Danny is going to unload and force Stevens to set a damn rotation. AD or Durantula here we come!

What do you mean couldn’t even? Did anyone expect them to be as good as that team or something?

[Captain_Caveman]

The spin is that the defensive numbers are a fraud. They are trash all around. The defensive numbers you're using were created against lottery teams. Against the good ones we would be bottom of the league.

Except we have had one of the toughest schedules in the league.

Portland's also had one of the toughest schedules to start the season, have the 9th ranked defense, not as much talent going into this season as we have on paper, yet they're 11-5.

His take was that our defensive stats were inflated due to playing bad teams.

The exact opposite is easily provable.

The offense, OTOH...

[Captain_Caveman]

We're getting torched by good, not great players. If you're an elite team you can't let guys like Kemba, Murray and Ingles go for 30, 40, 50 against you. This is just a shambolic, soft team.

...and there it is. sigh. please do us a favor and GOOGLE KEMBA WALKER thanks.

I remember when Celtics fans were knowledgeable.

This is really bottom of the barrel whiffing on basic fundamental ****. No other way to put it.

[Green89]

Sure you can think it's lazy. If we're the 7th seed come January then i'll totally agree with you.

Sometimes coaches are fired after 6-8 games of horrible basketball. You don't need more than 18 games to be still in a figuring things out mode. It's beyond that now. Sorry you can't see that.

So you're saying we should fire Brad Stevens now?

Wow.

<Enter gif of something flying over your head here.>

Your point was saying to wait, and I laid out that even NBA execs haven't done that and have based decisions on far less than we have already seen. My point is we don't need more time to see if this team's going to figure it out or not. Obviously firing Brad isn't the answer, nor what I implied.

[Captain_Caveman]

There's no way you can fight through every pick. Just not how modern NBA defense is played.

Yeah. We needed to do something else.
Help-Defense on Walker.

We rarely adjust on defense. We just keep praying our guys can keep up 1vs1.

Was the same thing everytime we played LeBron. It was 40 minutes of LeBron going one on one and finishing with ease at the rim. But now it's not LeBron, it's f*cking Jamal Murray and Kemba Walker.

OK... so we are, arguably, an A- on defense.

Why is our being an F on offense flying under the radar?

[Green89]

Except we have had one of the toughest schedules in the league.

Portland's also had one of the toughest schedules to start the season, have the 9th ranked defense, not as much talent going into this season as we have on paper, yet they're 11-5.

His take was that our defensive stats were inflated due to playing bad teams.

The exact opposite is easily provable.

The offense, OTOH...

Our offense is atrocious and our defense is the only thing keeping us over .500. We'd probably be 4-13 if our defense was even 9th ranked like Portland!

[The_Ghost_of_JB]

Except we have had one of the toughest schedules in the league.

At this point tough seems relative considering the Celtics are struggling against all teams good and bad.

The conversation is about defense though.

The truth is we have held the Raptors below their average efficiency in two games. We have held the Bucks below their average offensive efficiency. We held Portland way below their average efficiency. The Jazz are above. They were below in one game and WAY above in the other. The 76ers WAY below their average efficiency. The Thunder significantly below their average efficiency. The Nuggets above their efficiency.

The Pistons, below
The Magic, below

It is what it is. You can't just cherry pick the games and pick the numbers. We have been a good defensive team. We would be nowhere near the bottom if you only counted the really good teams for everybody's defensive ratings.

Valid points. I have to accept as bad as the D looks with these new rules in place every team is scoring over 100 points. The reality is the offense is the major issue here.

[ballup]

There's no way you can fight through every pick. Just not how modern NBA defense is played.

Yeah. We needed to do something else.
Help-Defense on Walker.

We rarely adjust on defense. We just keep praying our guys can keep up 1vs1.

Was the same thing everytime we played LeBron. It was 40 minutes of LeBron going one on one and finishing with ease at the rim. But now it's not LeBron, it's f*cking Jamal Murray and Kemba Walker.

The defensive gameplan is to always switch to simplify the defense, which helps takes away the responsibility of making the right decision as to how to cover the pick. Ya, particular matchups can be fully gameplanned in a series, but teams don't have that luxury of time in the regular season. Superstar defense can only get a team so far and the Celtics need to execute on offense to win out those games. The team needs to be better on PnR to get to the rim instead of these 3s and ISOs. This team is lost on confidence in themselves and then the system, creating a negative feedback loop. Luckily the window is not limited to this season, but they can't continue be this bad or they'll never get their mojo staying together.

[Parliament10]

Yeah. We needed to do something else.
Help-Defense on Walker.

We rarely adjust on defense. We just keep praying our guys can keep up 1vs1.

Was the same thing everytime we played LeBron. It was 40 minutes of LeBron going one on one and finishing with ease at the rim. But now it's not LeBron, it's f*cking Jamal Murray and Kemba Walker.

OK... so we are, arguably, an A- on defense.

Why is our being an F on offense flying under the radar?

Well, we definitely need better Offense. -- With that Starting Lineup change, we need to "re-click", so to speak.
We did score 112, though. = So, I wouldn't say that that was an "F".

[reload141]

Sometimes coaches are fired after 6-8 games of horrible basketball. You don't need more than 18 games to be still in a figuring things out mode. It's beyond that now. Sorry you can't see that.

So you're saying we should fire Brad Stevens now?

Wow.

<Enter gif of something flying over your head here.>

Your point was saying to wait, and I laid out that even NBA execs haven't done that and have based decisions on far less than we have already seen. Point is we don't need more time to see if this team's going to figure it out or not. Obviously firing Brad isn't the answer, nor what I implied.

Yeah my point is I will wait because ultimately like some other posters have said I believe in our ability to beat any team in the EC in a 7 game series right now.
But that's just my belief, lucky Ainge and the organisation isn't as trigger happy as some have said to be here. Yes there are issues but i'm fine with waiting.

And I totally understand why people are freaking out at the same time. What are you proposing to fix their issues?

[PierceFan4ever]

The one positive I can take away is that the Celtics have been in pretty much every game they lost deep in the 4th aside from the Jazz home game. These flaws of the team are fixable and it’s ovviously on brad and the team to figure it out.

Play Hayward 15 minutes not 30
When Morris is playing bad then limit his minutes right away
Play Baynes with Horford more
Play whoever is hot more minutes for longer stretches
If the bench is playing fine and we have a double digit lead don’t wait and buy some time for the starters in the 4th before the lead dwindles down to 5 or less.
Less Kyrie iso’s where the whole team watches him late in the 4th, run some freakin plays like last season. Make it unpredictable have other players set up the play.
Need Al, Tatum, and Brown to post up more.

[Captain_Caveman]

Yeah. We needed to do something else.
Help-Defense on Walker.

We rarely adjust on defense. We just keep praying our guys can keep up 1vs1.

Was the same thing everytime we played LeBron. It was 40 minutes of LeBron going one on one and finishing with ease at the rim. But now it's not LeBron, it's f*cking Jamal Murray and Kemba Walker.

The defensive gameplan is to always switch to simplify the defense, which helps takes away the responsibility of making the right decision as to how to cover the pick. Ya, particular matchups can be fully gameplanned in a series, but teams don't have that luxury of time in the regular season. Superstar defense can only get a team so far and the Celtics need to execute on offense to win out those games. The team needs to be better on PnR to get to the rim instead of these 3s and ISOs. This team is lost on confidence in themselves and then the system, creating a negative feedback loop. Luckily the window is not limited to this season, but they can't continue be this bad or they'll never get their mojo staying together.

I'd just point out that this isn't a team built around our defense. It's not where the big salaries go, and it really isn't where our high draft picks have gone. People repeatedly blaming our defensive role players is quizzical in this context.

[Parliament10]

I think that we need to Practice 5-on-6.
We need to feel that pressure, and make no excuses.

It's tough . . . Yada Yada, Blah, Blah Blah.
Get it Together.

What are you waiting for Brad?
This ain't the Preseason.

[Green89]

So you're saying we should fire Brad Stevens now?

Wow.

<Enter gif of something flying over your head here.>

Your point was saying to wait, and I laid out that even NBA execs haven't done that and have based decisions on far less than we have already seen. Point is we don't need more time to see if this team's going to figure it out or not. Obviously firing Brad isn't the answer, nor what I implied.

Yeah my point is I will wait because ultimately like some other posters have said I believe in our ability to beat any team in the EC in a 7 game series right now.
But that's just my belief, lucky Ainge and the organisation isn't as trigger happy as some have said to be here. Yes there are issues but i'm fine with waiting.

And I totally understand why people are freaking out at the same time. What are you proposing to fix their issues?

While I'm not 100% sure what would fix our issues, it's not looking to me like it's an easy fix. Mainly, because we haven't seen any lengthy or consistent solid play, aside from maybe the Toronto game, especially on offense. And we needed overtime, being at home, and Kyrie to score 43 to get that win. We're working too hard and no one outside Iriving is looking like they're able or willing to help support us on offense. I just don't know if time and Brad's continuous tinkering is going to cure that. A trade may have to happen.

[ballup]

Notice neither Tatum nor Irving took a shot in that span. Wait, I think they were both on the bench. Hard to close out games offensively when your top two scoring options still aren't in the quarter and the opposing team's best scorer is going off. I felt like when Kyrie came in at around the 6:15 mark, he was ice cold.

I don't believe any player during Brad's tenure averaged 34 minutes per game on the season. Even the year IT averaged 29ppg, he only averaged 33.8. Brad just loves to circle the minutes around like a college team.

Kyrie was in from 2:40 left in the third and was taken out at 8:40 in the 4th. I don't think it was wrong of Brad to give him a few minutes rest before having him play the rest of the quarter. Brad built the rotation around IT's desire to play the whole 4th and of course Kyrie isn't built the same way. It's easy to say Brad should have played Kyrie more, but you have to remember we were still up when Kyrie went out (98-93) and Kyrie was put back in right after the Hornets went up. Kemba was gassed late in the 4th, but the Celtics did a poor job of responding. I do think Hayward should have his minutes front loaded, his defense and playmaking isn't enough for closing out games.

Morris did screw up in that stretch and part of this game should be on him. He's been the 6th man this season, but I do question the sustainability of his play and the low IQ reared its head tonight.

We didn't score while Kyrie sat. If Brad's going to sit Kyrie in the 4th, he needs to call some scoring plays to the rim or something high percentage. We can't let the other team pull away/catch up/overtake the lead when he sits.

The thing is, who do we trust to do so? Horford has the ability, but he's not the kind of personality to do so. Hayward isn't that kind of guy either, especially with his current reduced effectiveness. Brown doesn't have the tight control to do so. That only leaves Tatum or Morris, neither have the right ideal approach/production. The former trying to use every move in his book and the other not being strong enough in any self creation aspect to consistently carry an offense for a stretch

[GotDaSauce]

We are going to have the same record as the Kingz by the end of the night! That's just Mind Bottling!!!!

[CSL_1904]

We're getting torched by good, not great players. If you're an elite team you can't let guys like Kemba, Murray and Ingles go for 30, 40, 50 against you. This is just a shambolic, soft team.

...and there it is. sigh. please do us a favor and GOOGLE KEMBA WALKER thanks.

He's a very good player, not a superstar. Elite defensive teams can't allow a guy like gim going for 40+ when he's the only really threat on that team. Sorry.

[grindtime22]

I'm just not sure what you do with Hayward. There is no way I would cut his minutes that much at this point. Ultimately, its about the postseason. If we are going to contend, Hayward is going to be a significant part of that. He is the master of the in and out right now. Its depressing, everything in and out. Hopefully he regains some of that athleticism by the end of the year and his shot starts falling. It hurts right now, but I get why we are still riding it out.

[Green89]

Kyrie was in from 2:40 left in the third and was taken out at 8:40 in the 4th. I don't think it was wrong of Brad to give him a few minutes rest before having him play the rest of the quarter. Brad built the rotation around IT's desire to play the whole 4th and of course Kyrie isn't built the same way. It's easy to say Brad should have played Kyrie more, but you have to remember we were still up when Kyrie went out (98-93) and Kyrie was put back in right after the Hornets went up. Kemba was gassed late in the 4th, but the Celtics did a poor job of responding. I do think Hayward should have his minutes front loaded, his defense and playmaking isn't enough for closing out games.

Morris did screw up in that stretch and part of this game should be on him. He's been the 6th man this season, but I do question the sustainability of his play and the low IQ reared its head tonight.

We didn't score while Kyrie sat. If Brad's going to sit Kyrie in the 4th, he needs to call some scoring plays to the rim or something high percentage. We can't let the other team pull away/catch up/overtake the lead when he sits.

The thing is, who do we trust to do so? Horford has the ability, but he's not the kind of personality to do so. Hayward isn't that kind of guy either, especially with his current reduced effectiveness. Brown doesn't have the tight control to do so. That only leaves Tatum or Morris, neither have the right ideal approach/production. The former trying to use every move in his book and the other not being strong enough in any self creation aspect to consistently carry an offense for a stretch

Plays to Theis down low come to mind. He had some easy buckets early on. Kyrie didn't sit too long, so you just need a couple of set plays, not Smart and Morris perimeter misses.

[Tyakack]

What I'm most disappointed about is my lack of excitement to watch the games. If I have any excuse to miss a game I will likely take it. This team isn't very fun to watch.