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OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2

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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#281 » by CelticsLV » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:40 pm

My thoughts about GoT episode 3...

Spoiler:
Honestly, that was pretty **** ending to the whole Night King storyline. Expected something more complicated and for him not to go down in such a simplistic manner. Night King turned out to be the definition of a generic, pointless villain. 7 season build up for this? Ruthless political games between houses and different characters, beheaded Ned Stark, Walder Frey killing off half of Stark family while amidst these political games, the ultimate threat to all the kingdom led by this badass Night King looms, ignored by the fighting houses. The Show even started with the White Walker scene. And this is what we get? Night King just stabbed like that and Walkers are gone with him? Did his generals come to pose for pictures? Not even a single duel? Jorah Mormont died? Wow, big **** deal, NOT!!! Let's just return to the fight for the throne? Makes you think why even bother with White Walker storyline in the first place if it ends in such a pathetic fashion

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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#282 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:49 pm

GoT.....I just rewatched episode 3....

Spoiler:
They basically Snoke'd or Darth Maul'd the Night King. Built him up, only to have him unceremoniously defeated. I thought it was a lazy bit of writing. Maybe don't spend episode 2 with having everyone just chilling out in Winterfell. Have that battle span over 2 episodes at least, so he looks like a formidable opponent.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#283 » by bucknersrevenge » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:00 pm

Rest In Paradise brother. Your work changed the battleground for social justice forever. And beyond that, your work was just very good.

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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#284 » by 31to6 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:18 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:GoT.....I just rewatched episode 3....

Spoiler:
They basically Snoke'd or Darth Maul'd the Night King. Built him up, only to have him unceremoniously defeated. I thought it was a lazy bit of writing. Maybe don't spend episode 2 with having everyone just chilling out in Winterfell. Have that battle span over 2 episodes at least, so he looks like a formidable opponent.


Seemed plenty formidable but in the end there’s no there there. SW fans spent years trying to figure out who Snoke ‘was’

Spoiler:
he was a bad guy who died
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#285 » by CeltsfaninDC » Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 pm

31to6 wrote:
CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:GoT.....I just rewatched episode 3....

Spoiler:
They basically Snoke'd or Darth Maul'd the Night King. Built him up, only to have him unceremoniously defeated. I thought it was a lazy bit of writing. Maybe don't spend episode 2 with having everyone just chilling out in Winterfell. Have that battle span over 2 episodes at least, so he looks like a formidable opponent.


Seemed plenty formidable but in the end there’s no there there. SW fans spent years trying to figure out who Snoke ‘was’

Spoiler:
he was a bad guy who died


Unless
Spoiler:
he wasn’t really the Night King. Or Melisindra (sp) wanted to have him offed so that she could become the Night Queen.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#286 » by 3D Chess » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:09 am

Tatumfor2 wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
truth18 wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


Spoiler:
I agree as far as it relates to the overall plot, Buckners. I don't think the books would have gone this way, that said, still one of the best individual episodes of TV I've ever seen.


While they might be out of source material, I don't think the show runners are diverging from GRRM at all on the major plot developments. More are coming.


Spoiler:
I think they are still working with source material. Beric saving Arya was a "Hodor" moment for me. They are pulling from existing notes and GRRM is still steering the ship.

Spoiler:
Beric is long dead in the books.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#287 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:48 am

CelticsLV wrote:My thoughts about GoT episode 3...

Spoiler:
Honestly, that was pretty **** ending to the whole Night King storyline. Expected something more complicated and for him not to go down in such a simplistic manner. Night King turned out to be the definition of a pointless villain. 7 season build up for this? Ruthless political games between houses and different characters, beheaded Ned Stark, Walder Frey killing off half of Stark family while amidst these political games, the ultimate threat to all the kingdom led by this badass Night King looms, ignored by the fighting houses. The Show even started with the White Walker scene. And this is what we get? Night King just stabbed like that and Walkers are gone with him? Did his generals come to pose for pictures? Not even a single duel? Jorah Mormont died? Wow, big **** deal, NOT!!! Let's just return to the fight for the throne? Makes you think why even bother with White Walker storyline in the first place if it ends in such a pathetic fashion

Image


Spoiler:
i agree. 7 years of winter is coming and the walkers being spoken about in Westeros lore for 1000 years and he is killed within 80 mins. No more info for the back story no real reasoning or motivation for what he wanted other than bran’s prophecy. Just didn’t think that part of the story would end like that. I suspect that they did that because in the end the major players will die playing the game of thrones and battling other houses instead of the walkers
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#288 » by 31to6 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:54 am

Can we drop the spoilers soon? Like, if you haven't seen it, this isn't the thread for you?

Spoiler:
HAN DIED
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#289 » by Big Joke Line » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:21 am

Hey Man, nice shot!
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#290 » by Captain_Caveman » Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:42 am

3D Chess wrote:Thought it was a good spectacle but awful writing (as has been the case for a few seasons now). Deus ex machina all over the place. Cheap, weak, disappointing.


Spoiler:
I see it differently. The show IS spectacle, not Shakespeare. To steal a phrase, last night was a "cinematic masterpiece".

Anyone ever see anything like that on TV before? Nope! Totally unprecedented in the history of TV and cable. Probably even movies as well. Visually stunning, musically beautiful, impeccably acted as always, very well-paced, and the artful blending together of a gigantic tapestry of characters and plot lines years in the making.

Folks glossing over all that is kinda jaded, IMO. I mean, look at this:

Image
Image

Yeah, the writing. I'd first offer that neither the showrunners nor GRRM are some fantastic writers. The whole show is a ridiculous blend of like 8 different fantasy genres and shocking gotcha moments, and none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to.

With that said, people are way too hard on the writing. There were several denouements of secondary characters that were very well done. Jorah, Theon, Beric, Melisandre. Oh, and, like it or not, Arya.

And we aren't done. As tempted as I am to drop some spoilers on the next three episodes, I'll just say buckle up instead.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#291 » by CelticsLV » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:52 am

Speaking about the battle itself...

Spoiler:
Not sure where people who say "the battle was phenomenal" come from? Compared to "Battle of the Bastards" or Dothraki, Daenerys encounter with Lannisters or even when White Walkers attacked wildlings at Hardhome this was utter garbage. I understand that it's a wave of undead so the chaos is expected but the whole battle was "I can't see anything for ****" moshpit devoid of any tactics. Don't make me even mention that dumb rush by Dothraki. If they tried to portray mindless savages who know no battle tactics then great job, you absolutely nailed it. :lol: I still can't get over the lack of battle action from Night King and his generals. If this show IS spectacle then they missed out on so many opportunities it's mind-boggling. Just remember how he pierced Viserion with that ice spear!? That was the most action we got from him. All he did besides that was raise his arms a few times and walk. Remember that encounter between one of the generals and Jon Snow at Hardhome? How about more of it?

They cheaped out on this battle big time. Here's to hope "The Last Battle" is where all the resources went.


Don't make me into some GoT hater because I'm not. I absolutely loved the first few seasons.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#292 » by 3D Chess » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:27 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:Thought it was a good spectacle but awful writing (as has been the case for a few seasons now). Deus ex machina all over the place. Cheap, weak, disappointing.


Spoiler:
I see it differently. The show IS spectacle, not Shakespeare. To steal a phrase, last night was a "cinematic masterpiece".

Anyone ever see anything like that on TV before? Nope! Totally unprecedented in the history of TV and cable. Probably even movies as well. Visually stunning, musically beautiful, impeccably acted as always, very well-paced, and the artful blending together of a gigantic tapestry of characters and plot lines years in the making.

Folks glossing over all that is kinda jaded, IMO. I mean, look at this:

Image
Image

Yeah, the writing. I'd first offer that neither the showrunners nor GRRM are some fantastic writers. The whole show is a ridiculous blend of like 8 different fantasy genres and shocking gotcha moments, and none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to.

With that said, people are way too hard on the writing. There were several denouements of secondary characters that were very well done. Jorah, Theon, Beric, Melisandre. Oh, and, like it or not, Arya.

And we aren't done. As tempted as I am to drop some spoilers on the next three episodes, I'll just say buckle up instead.

Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.

"none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to. "

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#293 » by 3D Chess » Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:54 pm

CelticsLV wrote:Speaking about the battle itself...

Spoiler:
Not sure where people who say "the battle was phenomenal" come from? Compared to "Battle of the Bastards" or Dothraki, Daenerys encounter with Lannisters or even when White Walkers attacked wildlings at Hardhome this was utter garbage. I understand that it's a wave of undead so the chaos is expected but the whole battle was "I can't see anything for ****" moshpit devoid of any tactics. Don't make me even mention that dumb rush by Dothraki. If they tried to portray mindless savages who know no battle tactics then great job, you absolutely nailed it. :lol: I still can't get over the lack of battle action from Night King and his generals. If this show IS spectacle then they missed out on so many opportunities it's mind-boggling. Just remember how he pierced Viserion with that ice spear!? That was the most action we got from him. All he did besides that was raise his arms a few times and walk. Remember that encounter between one of the generals and Jon Snow at Hardhome? How about more of it?

They cheaped out on this battle big time. Here's to hope "The Last Battle" is where all the resources went.


Don't make me into some GoT hater because I'm not. I absolutely loved the first few seasons.

Spoiler:
They meticulously went about arming all of the most badass warriors left standing in Westeros with Valyrian steel swords, specifically because they are useful against the WW's (not wights, but the generals you mention), gathered them all in one place, only to NEVER use the capabilities of V steel on the battlefield. Not freaking ONCE! Unreal, lol.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#294 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:52 pm

3D Chess wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:Thought it was a good spectacle but awful writing (as has been the case for a few seasons now). Deus ex machina all over the place. Cheap, weak, disappointing.


Spoiler:
I see it differently. The show IS spectacle, not Shakespeare. To steal a phrase, last night was a "cinematic masterpiece".

Anyone ever see anything like that on TV before? Nope! Totally unprecedented in the history of TV and cable. Probably even movies as well. Visually stunning, musically beautiful, impeccably acted as always, very well-paced, and the artful blending together of a gigantic tapestry of characters and plot lines years in the making.

Folks glossing over all that is kinda jaded, IMO. I mean, look at this:

Image
Image

Yeah, the writing. I'd first offer that neither the showrunners nor GRRM are some fantastic writers. The whole show is a ridiculous blend of like 8 different fantasy genres and shocking gotcha moments, and none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to.

With that said, people are way too hard on the writing. There were several denouements of secondary characters that were very well done. Jorah, Theon, Beric, Melisandre. Oh, and, like it or not, Arya.

And we aren't done. As tempted as I am to drop some spoilers on the next three episodes, I'll just say buckle up instead.

Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.

"none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to. "

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.


Spoiler:
one thing going against this season and that battle is we know it’s the end and there is literally 3 episodes left so during this battle we were prepared for people to die if for no other reason than to end storylines so as we watch it subconsciously or not we are prepared to see our characters die and mentally on edge waiting for it to happen and then it didn’t and we’re like huh?

Compare that to like battle of the bastards or black water or even hardhome where we truly had no idea who would go and who wouldn’t and who we needed to advance plot lines and I think a lot of the drama was taken away from the battle of winterfell at least for me. If I know the end is coming I almost expect major deaths in a battle like that as oppose to not knowing or expecting anything and than having that WOW factor or element of shock and surprise
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#295 » by Captain_Caveman » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:51 pm

3D Chess wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:Thought it was a good spectacle but awful writing (as has been the case for a few seasons now). Deus ex machina all over the place. Cheap, weak, disappointing.


Spoiler:
I see it differently. The show IS spectacle, not Shakespeare. To steal a phrase, last night was a "cinematic masterpiece".

Anyone ever see anything like that on TV before? Nope! Totally unprecedented in the history of TV and cable. Probably even movies as well. Visually stunning, musically beautiful, impeccably acted as always, very well-paced, and the artful blending together of a gigantic tapestry of characters and plot lines years in the making.

Folks glossing over all that is kinda jaded, IMO. I mean, look at this:

Image
Image

Yeah, the writing. I'd first offer that neither the showrunners nor GRRM are some fantastic writers. The whole show is a ridiculous blend of like 8 different fantasy genres and shocking gotcha moments, and none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to.

With that said, people are way too hard on the writing. There were several denouements of secondary characters that were very well done. Jorah, Theon, Beric, Melisandre. Oh, and, like it or not, Arya.

And we aren't done. As tempted as I am to drop some spoilers on the next three episodes, I'll just say buckle up instead.

Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.

"none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to. "

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.



Spoiler:
You are welcome to like it or not, but I don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind a lot of that. There were no dues ex machina cheap plot tricks IMO. Pretty much everything that happened was through storylines that were built up from the very start of the show. Wasn't like Nymeria rode in with a bunch of feral direwolves to save the day at the last moment. Probably a full quarter of the show to date was dedicated to creating an assassin out of Arya. Beric's entire purpose was to get her to the finish line. Jorah died protecting a woman he has been (in love) with since the very first episodes. None of that is contrived or cheap, even if it wasn't the denouements that you or others wanted. And the foreshadowing from season's worth of previous episodes was extensive and rich.

The showrunners have a huge challenge in terms of getting this complex world to screen in a cohesive manner with a nice bow on top at the end, and yes, the dialogue has slipped (although somewhat overstated given how well episode 2 was done). But episode 3 was absolutely intended as spectacle. It had to be. It was basically an 80-minute battle scene. To each their own on that, but in the show I watched, it was very well done, especially from a production value. As a movie, it would sweep the Oscars in a lot of categories, and we are talking about a TV show.

And as you know, the true antagonist of all of this is Cersei, not the Night King, who really isn't even in the books.

As to GRRM being some kind of great writer, also to each their own on that. I'd take the books and the show on their own terms to an extent.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#296 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:08 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
Spoiler:
I see it differently. The show IS spectacle, not Shakespeare. To steal a phrase, last night was a "cinematic masterpiece".

Anyone ever see anything like that on TV before? Nope! Totally unprecedented in the history of TV and cable. Probably even movies as well. Visually stunning, musically beautiful, impeccably acted as always, very well-paced, and the artful blending together of a gigantic tapestry of characters and plot lines years in the making.

Folks glossing over all that is kinda jaded, IMO. I mean, look at this:

Image
Image

Yeah, the writing. I'd first offer that neither the showrunners nor GRRM are some fantastic writers. The whole show is a ridiculous blend of like 8 different fantasy genres and shocking gotcha moments, and none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to.

With that said, people are way too hard on the writing. There were several denouements of secondary characters that were very well done. Jorah, Theon, Beric, Melisandre. Oh, and, like it or not, Arya.

And we aren't done. As tempted as I am to drop some spoilers on the next three episodes, I'll just say buckle up instead.

Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.

"none of it makes sense when you think about it. For all the theories and book backstories, not even sure it is supposed to. "

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.



Spoiler:
You are welcome to like it or not, but I don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind a lot of that. There were no dues ex machina cheap plot tricks IMO. Pretty much everything that happened was through storylines that were built up from the very start of the show. Wasn't like Nymeria rode in with a bunch of feral direwolves to save the day at the last moment. Probably a full quarter of the show to date was dedicated to creating an assassin out of Arya. Beric's entire purpose was to get her to the finish line. Jorah died protecting a woman he has been (in love) with since the very first episodes. None of that is contrived or cheap, even if it wasn't the denouements that you or others wanted. And the foreshadowing from season's worth of previous episodes was extensive and rich.

The showrunners have a huge challenge in terms of getting this complex world to screen in a cohesive manner with a nice bow on top at the end, and yes, the dialogue has slipped (although somewhat overstated given how well episode 2 was done). But episode 3 was absolutely intended as spectacle. It had to be. It was basically an 80-minute battle scene. To each their own on that, but in the show I watched, it was very well done, especially from a production value. As a movie, it would sweep the Oscars in a lot of categories, and we are talking about a TV show.

And as you know, the true antagonist of all of this is Cersei, not the Night King, who really isn't even in the books.

As to GRRM being some kind of great writer, also to each their own on that. I'd take the books and the show on their own terms to an extent.

Spoiler:
If anything, I agree with you, but wonder if we weren't misdirected a little. The show started by introducing WWs before they did any other thing. Them killing a bunch of people. The common thread tying 8 seasons together and the crystallization of Season 7 was that Winter is finall here.

And now it's like "Winter. Is. He.....ohh it's over. Thanks Arya. On to King's landing then I guess." Obviously the impression I got from you is that there are still some stunners to come and a wild finish for this thing is in store and I think we all look forward to that. But in some ways, despite the amazing spectacle of the episode, I can't help feeling it may have been a little anti-climactic. There are some salient points being made here about never getting a fully fleshed out understanding of who the Night King is or was. We never got a true taste of his overall power nor the rest of his generals. There was certainly impact to their deaths but there was an opportunity to tease that out even further and give it even more gravitas when they finally met their end.



Housekeeping note for all in this thread: Moving forward, just FYI, I'm dropping my spoiler tag on the Wednesday following each episode. I feel like that's more than sufficient time if you're a fan of this show. If you still haven't seen it by Wednesday morning, stay away.
There is no statute of limitation on Twitter. Remember that...
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#297 » by Captain_Caveman » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:14 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:
Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.



Spoiler:
You are welcome to like it or not, but I don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind a lot of that. There were no dues ex machina cheap plot tricks IMO. Pretty much everything that happened was through storylines that were built up from the very start of the show. Wasn't like Nymeria rode in with a bunch of feral direwolves to save the day at the last moment. Probably a full quarter of the show to date was dedicated to creating an assassin out of Arya. Beric's entire purpose was to get her to the finish line. Jorah died protecting a woman he has been (in love) with since the very first episodes. None of that is contrived or cheap, even if it wasn't the denouements that you or others wanted. And the foreshadowing from season's worth of previous episodes was extensive and rich.

The showrunners have a huge challenge in terms of getting this complex world to screen in a cohesive manner with a nice bow on top at the end, and yes, the dialogue has slipped (although somewhat overstated given how well episode 2 was done). But episode 3 was absolutely intended as spectacle. It had to be. It was basically an 80-minute battle scene. To each their own on that, but in the show I watched, it was very well done, especially from a production value. As a movie, it would sweep the Oscars in a lot of categories, and we are talking about a TV show.

And as you know, the true antagonist of all of this is Cersei, not the Night King, who really isn't even in the books.

As to GRRM being some kind of great writer, also to each their own on that. I'd take the books and the show on their own terms to an extent.

Spoiler:
If anything, I agree with you, but wonder if we weren't misdirected a little. The show started by introducing WWs before they did any other thing. Them killing a bunch of people. The common thread tying 8 seasons together and the crystallization of Season 7 was that Winter is finall here.

And now it's like "Winter. Is. He.....ohh it's over. Thanks Arya. On to King's landing then I guess." Obviously the impression I got from you is that there are still some stunners to come and a wild finish for this thing is in store and I think we all look forward to that. But in some ways, despite the amazing spectacle of the episode, I can't help feeling it may have been a little anti-climactic. There are some salient points being made here about never getting a fully fleshed out understanding of who the Night King is or was. We never got a true taste of his overall power nor the rest of his generals. There was certainly impact to their deaths but there was an opportunity to tease that out even further and give it even more gravitas when they finally met their end.



Housekeeping note for all in this thread: Moving forward, just FYI, I'm dropping my spoiler tag on the Wednesday following each episode. I feel like that's more than sufficient time if you're a fan of this show. If you still haven't seen it by Wednesday morning, stay away.


Purely speculation and not one of the true spoilers...
Spoiler:
Should we really assume that was really the end of the white walker storyline? Or is this more cyclical? Bran was not the first Three-eyed Raven, after all.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#298 » by bucknersrevenge » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:15 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:

Spoiler:
You are welcome to like it or not, but I don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind a lot of that. There were no dues ex machina cheap plot tricks IMO. Pretty much everything that happened was through storylines that were built up from the very start of the show. Wasn't like Nymeria rode in with a bunch of feral direwolves to save the day at the last moment. Probably a full quarter of the show to date was dedicated to creating an assassin out of Arya. Beric's entire purpose was to get her to the finish line. Jorah died protecting a woman he has been (in love) with since the very first episodes. None of that is contrived or cheap, even if it wasn't the denouements that you or others wanted. And the foreshadowing from season's worth of previous episodes was extensive and rich.

The showrunners have a huge challenge in terms of getting this complex world to screen in a cohesive manner with a nice bow on top at the end, and yes, the dialogue has slipped (although somewhat overstated given how well episode 2 was done). But episode 3 was absolutely intended as spectacle. It had to be. It was basically an 80-minute battle scene. To each their own on that, but in the show I watched, it was very well done, especially from a production value. As a movie, it would sweep the Oscars in a lot of categories, and we are talking about a TV show.

And as you know, the true antagonist of all of this is Cersei, not the Night King, who really isn't even in the books.

As to GRRM being some kind of great writer, also to each their own on that. I'd take the books and the show on their own terms to an extent.

Spoiler:
If anything, I agree with you, but wonder if we weren't misdirected a little. The show started by introducing WWs before they did any other thing. Them killing a bunch of people. The common thread tying 8 seasons together and the crystallization of Season 7 was that Winter is finall here.

And now it's like "Winter. Is. He.....ohh it's over. Thanks Arya. On to King's landing then I guess." Obviously the impression I got from you is that there are still some stunners to come and a wild finish for this thing is in store and I think we all look forward to that. But in some ways, despite the amazing spectacle of the episode, I can't help feeling it may have been a little anti-climactic. There are some salient points being made here about never getting a fully fleshed out understanding of who the Night King is or was. We never got a true taste of his overall power nor the rest of his generals. There was certainly impact to their deaths but there was an opportunity to tease that out even further and give it even more gravitas when they finally met their end.



Housekeeping note for all in this thread: Moving forward, just FYI, I'm dropping my spoiler tag on the Wednesday following each episode. I feel like that's more than sufficient time if you're a fan of this show. If you still haven't seen it by Wednesday morning, stay away.


Purely speculation and not one of the true spoilers...
Spoiler:
Should we really assume that was really the end of the white walker storyline? Or is this more cyclical? Bran was not the first Three-eyed Raven, after all.


I hate you.
There is no statute of limitation on Twitter. Remember that...
MagicBagley18
Analyst
Posts: 3,703
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#299 » by MagicBagley18 » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:37 pm

bucknersrevenge wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:
3D Chess wrote:
Spoiler:
Gotta disagree with you here. GRRM is a fantastic writer, and his world follows it's own internal logic ruthlessly and without cheap gotcha moments that feel unearned. Almost all of the great scenes and dialog in season 1-4 are taken verbatim from the books.


I wholeheartedly disagree with this. George wrote the books with purpose - that's why he's taking so freaking long to finish them. I could expound on the brilliant references, foreshadowing, and set up in the books but I'd be here til next Thursday.

How many times did we see Brienne, one handed Jaime (who has been shown to be pretty useless with his left hand), Pod, Sam (fking SAM, the most useless fighter in Westeros), Dany and Jon outnumbered, getting mauled, certain to die, then the camera cuts away. Next shot and they are 1 vs 1ing a couple of wights without a scratch on them... Lame. Fakeout after fakeout - by the 10th time the tension had been sucked out of the episode for me.

I enjoy ASOIAF because it is not your typical big budget brainless slop that relies on cheap tricks and well worn tropes. Unfortunately there has been a noticeable shift towards this type of stuff in the later seasons of the show. You can't watch the first few seasons and tell me this is the same quality of writing - it's not even close. I don't even really blame the show runners - even though I think they are pretty hacky - because they didn't sign up to finish this story, just to adapt it. They were left holding the can, and I think they've done a poor job of it.

I'm sure there are some great moments to come - George told them the framework of the ending, so it's sure to have some clever and epic moments. But so far they have failed to stick the landing from a story perspective. Not mad, just disappointed.

The music is absolutely fantastic and some of the visuals were stunning. But that's not the reason I became interested in the book/show. I think they abandoned that in favor of spectacle and "yas kween" moments on Twitter, which is fine for some (it would seem most?) people. Doesn't do it for me.

I'll admit I am a bit jaded. Been waiting years for that damn book, and to watch the ending get butchered (again, just my opinion) doesn't help with that! I've done my best to mentally separate the show from the books, but it's not 100% possible.



Spoiler:
You are welcome to like it or not, but I don't agree with a lot of the reasoning behind a lot of that. There were no dues ex machina cheap plot tricks IMO. Pretty much everything that happened was through storylines that were built up from the very start of the show. Wasn't like Nymeria rode in with a bunch of feral direwolves to save the day at the last moment. Probably a full quarter of the show to date was dedicated to creating an assassin out of Arya. Beric's entire purpose was to get her to the finish line. Jorah died protecting a woman he has been (in love) with since the very first episodes. None of that is contrived or cheap, even if it wasn't the denouements that you or others wanted. And the foreshadowing from season's worth of previous episodes was extensive and rich.

The showrunners have a huge challenge in terms of getting this complex world to screen in a cohesive manner with a nice bow on top at the end, and yes, the dialogue has slipped (although somewhat overstated given how well episode 2 was done). But episode 3 was absolutely intended as spectacle. It had to be. It was basically an 80-minute battle scene. To each their own on that, but in the show I watched, it was very well done, especially from a production value. As a movie, it would sweep the Oscars in a lot of categories, and we are talking about a TV show.

And as you know, the true antagonist of all of this is Cersei, not the Night King, who really isn't even in the books.

As to GRRM being some kind of great writer, also to each their own on that. I'd take the books and the show on their own terms to an extent.

Spoiler:
If anything, I agree with you, but wonder if we weren't misdirected a little. The show started by introducing WWs before they did any other thing. Them killing a bunch of people. The common thread tying 8 seasons together and the crystallization of Season 7 was that Winter is finall here.

And now it's like "Winter. Is. He.....ohh it's over. Thanks Arya. On to King's landing then I guess." Obviously the impression I got from you is that there are still some stunners to come and a wild finish for this thing is in store and I think we all look forward to that. But in some ways, despite the amazing spectacle of the episode, I can't help feeling it may have been a little anti-climactic. There are some salient points being made here about never getting a fully fleshed out understanding of who the Night King is or was. We never got a true taste of his overall power nor the rest of his generals. There was certainly impact to their deaths but there was an opportunity to tease that out even further and give it even more gravitas when they finally met their end.



Housekeeping note for all in this thread: Moving forward, just FYI, I'm dropping my spoiler tag on the Wednesday following each episode. I feel like that's more than sufficient time if you're a fan of this show. If you still haven't seen it by Wednesday morning, stay away.



Spoiler:
Ironically what’s happened is the reverse of what was the narrative throughout the last seasons. Snow and others have said and I’m paraphrasing “ it won’t matter who sits on the iron throne if we don’t take care of this threat” and that house politics and power plays were really moot points to the oncoming nightmare that was the WW and winter.

Now it’s reverted right back to what this story started out as - a battle between houses for the iron throne.
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Re: OT: Art, Music, Literature, Media, and More! Part 2 

Post#300 » by 3D Chess » Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:00 pm



Spoiler:

(inexplicably, this track is pretty dope)

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