Brad Stevens needs to own this pile of crap

[ermocrate]

I don't think this is an attitude and effort issue as much as what happens to this team in situations. Irving is a great player but he is a ball stopper. He is possibly the best ball handler in the game but it causes his teammates to stand around and that forces them to become ball handlers as well when they are all better moving without the ball.

Without Irving the team doesn't really have a guy who can handle the ball and create their own shot except for maybe Hayward so it becomes pass and shoot. Everyone is cutting and moving and not standing around.

I don't think this is drama issue it is a style of play issue. It comes down to Irving recognizing why guys are playing better when he is out of the line up and working that into the game plane and understanding that while his Iso play is effective and can be necessary that the team pays a price when he does that and how to facilitate both styles of play.

No, to me it's a coach issue, if Irving and his teammates doesn't do what the Coach asks, then we have to find a Coach with more authority... My opinion is that the guy just stop moving whem KI has the ball because they want to see the next highlights, that's a wrong attitude...

Your just completely wrong this and name one coach in the league that coaches that way anymore and I will start the countdown on them getting fired. Players stop moving when Irving goes into dribbling magic iso mode because they don't know what he is going to do, he is improvising. They don't want to get in his way or allow the defense to be able to double or switch on him more effectively so they hold where they are. When Horford has the ball the team knows what he is going to do with it they can move off of that action, for the most part they can do this with Smart and Hayward. Irving and Tatum are the ones who because of their ability have a tendency to solo.

It is about a balance. Running those motion sets with 3 or 4 passes takes time that means you can't get into it if you burn up the clock trying to break your man down off the dribble. This team needs to rely on those sets as the default and the iso's for the late game situations and when it is called for not the other way around.

They never isolate Kyrie, he often starts this "dribbing magic iso mode" in normal plays, he shots 17 times per game, he takes 9 of his shots whit his dribbling skills (seen the stats), that's about 3 and a half minutes worth of playing time(or less) on the 32 he plays, that shouldn't make such a difference in a game (beside the high efficency he usually have making those shots so a positive difference), the fact is KI is not the only one making personal plays, Morris, Tatum, Brown, Rozier and sometimes even Smart try to do their own thing, very often the offense relies on individual plays even when Kyrie is no there.

[soxfan2003]

I don't think this is an attitude and effort issue as much as what happens to this team in situations. Irving is a great player but he is a ball stopper. He is possibly the best ball handler in the game but it causes his teammates to stand around and that forces them to become ball handlers as well when they are all better moving without the ball.

Without Irving the team doesn't really have a guy who can handle the ball and create their own shot except for maybe Hayward so it becomes pass and shoot. Everyone is cutting and moving and not standing around.

I don't think this is drama issue it is a style of play issue. It comes down to Irving recognizing why guys are playing better when he is out of the line up and working that into the game plane and understanding that while his Iso play is effective and can be necessary that the team pays a price when he does that and how to facilitate both styles of play.

No, to me it's a coach issue, if Irving and his teammates doesn't do what the Coach asks, then we have to find a Coach with more authority... My opinion is that the guy just stop moving whem KI has the ball because they want to see the next highlights, that's a wrong attitude...

Your just completely wrong this and name one coach in the league that coaches that way anymore and I will start the countdown on them getting fired. Players stop moving when Irving goes into dribbling magic iso mode because they don't know what he is going to do, he is improvising. They don't want to get in his way or allow the defense to be able to double or switch on him more effectively so they hold where they are. When Horford has the ball the team knows what he is going to do with it they can move off of that action, for the most part they can do this with Smart and Hayward. Irving and Tatum are the ones who because of their ability have a tendency to solo.

It is about a balance. Running those motion sets with 3 or 4 passes takes time that means you can't get into it if you burn up the clock trying to break your man down off the dribble. This team needs to rely on those sets as the default and the iso's for the late game situations and when it is called for not the other way around.

ISO's shouldn't be the default but an Irving ISO is still important in the playoffs to use throughout the game when defenses can plan better for your plays.

That being said, I tend to agree with you that there needs to be more structure on a consistent basis with sets as the default. I don't want Rozier and Brown to think ISOs should be first option against set defenses since simply put they are not nearly as good shooters/scorers as Kyrie. I believe this not because the Celtics will necessarily even score more but I do think its a better way to take advantage of Celtics depth. It normally doesn't happen but part of the reason Miami lost to SAS one year is SAS tired them out. Celtics better off making teams like Golden State actually work hard on defense since it will either limit the minutes of their stars or give them tired legs leading to more missed shots.

Irving especially with these rules is more talented than a prime Tony Parker as a scorer/shooter but Popovich really did push back a lot against Tony Parker. Parker made his moves relatively quickly but I don't think Spurs knew what he was going to do on his iso's half the time since Parker was just reacting. Parker was not very good "off ball". Spurs ultimately found that balance but it is noteworthy that they were mostly led by their defense.

I think Spurs with Duncan/Leonard/Ginoboli/Parker proved that you could have a PG go 1 on 1 a decent amount throughout the game and still run plays with a lot of ball movement.

But Popovich was/is a hard nosed coach.

Part of the reason Manu G. was on the bench for much of his career is I think Popovich didn't want to waste his minutes with Parker shooting so much and Duncan as a no brainer as a starter as well. Manu was "too good" to just stand their and be a floor spacer for Parker and Gordon Hayward is fairly similar.

Main thing is everyone healthy. If that is the case, this team has enough talent to figure it out and be a very tough out for anyone.

[Dannyboy36]

One thing I’ve noticed is after a rebound guys will dribble up the court while a player is 8-10 feet ahead on the sideline. Gotta advance the ball as quick as possible and run. Can always pull the ball out again if nothing is there.

[Bleeding Green]

One thing I’ve noticed is after a rebound guys will dribble up the court while a player is 8-10 feet ahead on the sideline. Gotta advance the ball as quick as possible and run. Can always pull the ball out again if nothing is there.

True, but if you have these guys ahead of you they can act as magnets to defenders if they run to the corners, opens up the middle of the court for the guy with the ball. Then attack the paint, defense collapses, kick the ball out. Of course if it's Marcus Morris it doesn't work, but if it's Brown or Kyrie or Rozier I want them running the ball up the court as fast as possible and the other wings fanning out to the corners.

Celtics are 12-3 in their last 15 games. One loss to the best team in the last 30 years, one loss to a team that shot over 50% from 3, and then one loss where Kyrie went down midway through the game. I hope Stevens keeps owning this pile of crap.

[cloverleaf]

Kenny Smith on what Brad needs to be able to do as a coach. We know that Brad is pretty square, can he fit in a circular hole?

“I played with some volatile personalities and won championships,” he said. “There’s no great player that would not attribute it to great coaching. It’s important to understand how to read all of that . . . You have to be circular to understand it and that’s important. You have to be a recruiter. You have to understand all of that.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2019/02/14/tnt-analysts-still-believe-celtics-have-talent-but-they-are-longer-favorite-win-east/69VIchghWrvtr3wnb4iRbO/story.html

[Parliament10]

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[Curmudgeon]

As I said in the other thread, it used to be Stevens' team, but now it's Kyrie's team. Stevens has to control Kyrie if he wants the team to play Stevens' way. That's easier said than done.

I blame Ainge as much as I blame Stevens. Ainge's fixation on Anthony Davis at any cost (imagined or real) is affecting the young players. Why should they bust their tails when they will likely be gone in 5 months? Sure, the young players have to understand that it's a business. Well, Ainge has to understand that too, and the franchise's lack of loyalty to its players is not lost on players like Tatum and Brown. Meanwhile, Morris and Rozier are almost certainly gone as well, even if not part of an AD deal. They will be luxury tax casualties of Haywards huge deal and Kyrie's upcoming huge deal.

[Sactowndog]

Personally I think Boston should immediately fire Stevens. Of course, then Sac can replace Joeger with him

[coldfish]

Bulls fan piping in, I come in peace.

In 2014, the Bulls added Pau, brought back Rose and expected great things. They also had some young guys on the team. The Bulls ended up winning 50, being a general disappointment and it got Thibs fired. Hoiberg then came in and the exact team got 10 wins worse and they missed the playoffs.

The team was just painful to watch. They would frequently lay an egg against bad teams, struggle against mediocre teams, etc. Every once in a while they would tease you by smashing a good team. The overall effort was inconsistent at best and more accurately described as poor. The agendas on the team were ridiculous.

It wasn't the coach's fault. It was the GM's fault for trying to ride multiple horses with one ass and falling on all of them. Winning, player development, contracts, etc. were all conflicting requirements that ended up killing the team.

Many Bulls fans piped in after the last game saying how much the body language of the Celts reminded them of the Bulls from Thibs' last year. I think the celts have a good thing going on but its going to require the GM picking a lane and getting rid of any player who isn't fully on board with that. I virtually guarantee you that replacing Stevens won't make things better. For the Bulls, replacing Thibs with Hoiberg made it much worse.

[cloverleaf]

Lots of people, fairly, putting a chunk of blame in Stevens's lap. But, fairly, few to the point of calling for him to be fired. If he has a similar team and is in a similar situation next year, I suspect Wyc will however be growing restless.

[tlee324]

Didn’t see these issues with the previous teams he’s had.

[return2glory]

Brad is taking the blame because that’s what leaders do.

See Kyrie for what non leaders do (throw people under the bus).

The real story is that the self appointed leader doesn’t have the respect of his fellow teammates. Just the other day, Smart was upset after a loss and Kyrie was like it’s just the regular season.

Iverson got heat for saying, “We are talking about practice?” Meanwhile Kyrie basically says, ‘we are talking about the regular season.’

While Celtic fans can appreciate Kyrie’s skills on the floor, I would say not too many fans are happy about his leadership, heart, or consistent effort.

We are stuck with him, while Ainge hopes he can resign him and in the process convince AD to sign here beyond one year.

That’s been the drama surrounding this team for most of the season along with trying to help Hayward slowly move into his former all-star caliber self.

Not on Brad. Danny’s mess to clean up. And now he has young players saying privately saying why should I care about the Celtics if I’m most likely headed to NO.

[Ed Pinkney]

He has been give a lot of balls to juggle:

- He has had to try and integrate Irving and Hayward back into a team that was half a game of basketball from making the Finals.

- He has to try and rebuild the game and confidence of a player with a horrific, career threatening injury. And this was always going to take a year or possibly more to occur, but how else do you get a player back to playing high level NBA basketball other than by playing high level NBA basketball? Practicing, scrimmaging, G-League ain't getting it done. This is then further compounded by Hayward's struggles, having to deal with questions externally and probably internally about him getting favorable treatment from Stevens because of their personal connection and history. That is a lose-lose proposition.

- He has to continue to develop a bunch of talented youngsters, not only as long term parts of the Celtics, but also he has to keep giving minutes to players who are potential trade pieces when their play probably says they need to sit more. It also hasn't helped that some players (well mainly Rozier) have regressed so badly going back to the bench, and that there is something not right with Brown.

- He has to keep a player like Morris happy in a contract year, who also happens to be one of their more important players, so he doesn't turn into a problem.

- And (as has been discussed on this board in great depth), he has to deal with a mercurial All Star who might pack his bags and run away in a few months if things aren't going well.


That is going to be a massive challenge for any coach. And I don't really blame Ainge either, because you can easily make an argument to support every decision he made. He was right to think that adding Irving and Hayward to a conference finalist would be successful, he was right to hold on to Rozier in the summer, he was right to hold his assets for Davis etc etc.

[Ed Pinkney]

Brad is taking the blame because that’s what leaders do.

Also this.

[Curmudgeon]

It's pretty obvious that Ainge traded for the wrong star player. He doesn't fit with the other players on the team. This will become obvious in the playoffs if it isn't obvious already.

Interestingly, the 76ers also traded for the wrong player. Jimmy Butler has the same bloated ego as Kyrie, and the Sixers are going nowhere this year.

The EC finals will feature the Raptors and the Bucks, barring an injury that no one can foresee.

[Triple7]

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He should be disappointed in himself. Being the leader, he hasn’t done a good job in handling egos, making players accountable for their lazy, sloppy plays. He’s also done a poor job making players accept his system and their roles. I don’t think he clearly defined each and every players roles moving forward. Heck Rozier and Brown up until now, thinks they are the best players on this team with their selfish plays, or is thinking stats to improve their value. Over all, i still think he has a great coaching mind, but his ability to lead is questionable. Especially to lead a bunch of stars.

[cloverleaf]

It's pretty obvious that Ainge traded for the wrong star player. He doesn't fit with the other players on the team. This will become obvious in the playoffs if it isn't obvious already.

Interestingly, the 76ers also traded for the wrong player. Jimmy Butler has the same bloated ego as Kyrie, and the Sixers are going nowhere this year.

The EC finals will feature the Raptors and the Bucks, barring an injury that no one can foresee.

There tends to be a reason why certain star players are available in trade.

[Parasite]

Brad is a great Xs and Os guy. I just don’t think he has it in him to lay down the law when it’s needed. I really don’t. He’s too afraid of stepping on toes. He’s a Midwesterner basically. Unfortunately he’s not cut from the same cloth as another Midwesterner, Larry Bird. Dude would be the perfect coach if he were.

Perhaps it is something that he will be forced to learn. But if this season doesn’t instill it in him, nothing will.

[Taget]

My two cents. My concern is more defense than offense. Bulls scored 126 points. The Two LA games we dropped 129 point and 123 points. Last year when we went on a tear our hallmark was not letting teams score above 100. We may have more guns this year but winning basketball for us is not winning shootout contests but shutting other teams down.

I'd like to see a return to the type of philosophy that drove us to success before everyone was too "talented" to bench. Those who play defense play, those who don't sit. We'll put together the necessary offense from those who put maximum effort on the defensive end. Defense is what separates us from being a "talented" team that could be good "one day" from one that contends.

I can forgive offensive lapses. It happens. It's the defensive lapses that gnaw on me.

[Jaqua92]

As I said in the other thread, it used to be Stevens' team, but now it's Kyrie's team. Stevens has to control Kyrie if he wants the team to play Stevens' way. That's easier said than done.

I blame Ainge as much as I blame Stevens. Ainge's fixation on Anthony Davis at any cost (imagined or real) is affecting the young players. Why should they bust their tails when they will likely be gone in 5 months? Sure, the young players have to understand that it's a business. Well, Ainge has to understand that too, and the franchise's lack of loyalty to its players is not lost on players like Tatum and Brown. Meanwhile, Morris and Rozier are almost certainly gone as well, even if not part of an AD deal. They will be luxury tax casualties of Haywards huge deal and Kyrie's upcoming huge deal.

Who cares about the young players? They are entitled. JT is the most mature of them. But as for the rest, some of them think they are stars, are detriments to the team and need to do their jobs.

None of the players will be part of our next championship core, Brown doesn't have a solid ego-super ego balance, and Rozier has flat out admitted he wants to outplay Kyrie. Couldn't care less about any of those guys.

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