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General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2

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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1281 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:20 am

soxfan2003 wrote:I really don't think Cam has been awful this year overall even though his passing stats are obviously very bad. He often partially makes up for it with his running. But at this point it is fair to say Cam's upside is limited. Even if he understands the offense a little more, he is unlikely to become that much more confident in terms of quick decisions and making throws in that situation.

I would try Stidham in this game. Made this post 60 seconds before they made the change but wanted to wait to send it to see what BB would do.


Been watching this team since the late 1970s, and Cam is easily the worst QB I have seen beyond guys in spot duty.

There is no defending this dude at this point. Weird that people would even try.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1282 » by CeltsfanSinceBirth » Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:03 pm

This thread is basically Cave doing victory laps on you dudes. :lol:

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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1283 » by soxfan2003 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:26 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
soxfan2003 wrote:I really don't think Cam has been awful this year overall even though his passing stats are obviously very bad. He often partially makes up for it with his running. But at this point it is fair to say Cam's upside is limited. Even if he understands the offense a little more, he is unlikely to become that much more confident in terms of quick decisions and making throws in that situation.

I would try Stidham in this game. Made this post 60 seconds before they made the change but wanted to wait to send it to see what BB would do.


Been watching this team since the late 1970s, and Cam is easily the worst QB I have seen beyond guys in spot duty.

There is no defending this dude at this point. Weird that people would even try.


I only defend Cam Newton for the same reason I defended Antoine Walker in the early 2000's. It is always best to accurately rate players so the team as a whole can be better assessed. I never felt Walker was one of the best 25 players in the NBA but I defended him vs some people saying that he absolutely sucked and was a negative on the court. But I think Cam has been a net positive this year compared to the level of QB play I was expecting before he was signed. If Patriots had signed Newton for 15-20 million in a one year deal, I would have opposed it but for peanuts, I saw little wrong with it. Yes, it hurts the Patriots draft position in each round of the draft but should help in free agency.

Team would probably have 2 more wins without the Covid opt outs and coronavirus. That isn't excuse making but just a reality check on how good Hightower has been and the importance of depth. So, instead of 6-6 with Cam and 0-1 without him, may 8-5 right now and perhaps 10-6 overall.

I have been watching and listening since the 70's as well. In my case, late 70's Some games I only heard on radio. Big fan of Steve Grogan's toughness -- he had injuries everywhere -- but Cam Newton overall this year has been way better and not just a little bit better than Grogran was his last few years with the Patriots as someone who still ended up starting a handful of games each season. Neither could throw the ball that well compared to their peers but Cam operating with less and Cam can still run the ball. Grogan in the end was a shell of himself.

I have a bias against Tony Eason but he was (usually) better than this version of Cam Newton. I am one of the last people to accuse a QB of lacking toughness but one Eason play still upsets me. On a 4th down with the season in the balance, Eason took a sack in a game by protecting himself instead of at least chucking the ball up for grabs.

70's and early 80's Grogan was better.

Hugh Millen wasn't as good.

Matt Cavanaugh wasn't as good either.

Thing about the last 80's and early 90's is the Patriots often really had poor QB play and not just a little bit below average for a starter like Cam Newton has been after you factor in Cam's ability to run the ball. Sometimes the teams were truly awful I still watched.

For a number 1 overall pick, Irving Fryar was somewhat of a disappointment for his NFL career. You can keep his cocaine habit the same and the guy probably ends up with 2500+ more yards if he spent his best years on teams with better QB's. Fryar could really block.

Maybe my age is getting to me but Irving Fryar at his best in New England, was probably better than anyone on this team including this years version of Gilmore. Made 4 Pro Bowls after leaving the Patriots despite being an older player at that time so only one with them but was at his athletic best on the Patriots. He did drop a few more balls than I would like.

Grogan in his prime did have a great offensive line and Stanley Morgan. I don't think Grogan was ever that accurate of a passer compared to his peers but he could run -- good at naked bootlegs -- and had better command of the offense than Cam.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1284 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:42 pm

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:This thread is basically Cave doing victory laps on you dudes. :lol:

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I’m past calling anyone out. I just don’t want to watch this offense anymore lol.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1285 » by SmartWentCrazy » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:31 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:I’m past calling anyone out. I just don’t want to watch this offense anymore lol.


The tough part is I dont think people truly realize how far away we are right now. This wont be a 1 year downturn, gonna take multiple offseasons to fix our pisspoor offense.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1286 » by Bleeding Green » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:48 pm

It depends on how they approach it. The only interesting or above average offensive skill players on the roster are Harris, White, Meyers, Keene and Asiasi. They can easily sign someone like Allen Robinson in the offseason, trade for Matt Stafford and have a good offense next year.

I dunno if that's necessarily something they should do, but with an offensive line this good, you should be able to have a good offense with even average skill position talent. The problem is that Meyers is the best WR on the roster and the QB can't throw the ball more than 15 yards down the field.

Do they target a legit QB for next year in FA/trade or do they just roll it back out with Newton and hope a better defense, and an extra year for Meyers/Keene/Asiasi/Harris can carry the load? Surely Newton will be cheap again for next year.

I'm more worried about the linebackers and defensive line on this roster. Gotta be the worst linebacking corps in all of football and the only interesting young players in the front seven are Uche and Winovich. I know Hightower is probably back next year, but he'll be 31.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1287 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:13 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:I’m past calling anyone out. I just don’t want to watch this offense anymore lol.


The tough part is I dont think people truly realize how far away we are right now. This wont be a 1 year downturn, gonna take multiple offseasons to fix our pisspoor offense.


I'm starting to feel a little hopeful, but yeah.

Lots of young talent developing on defense and the o-line not bad at all. We still have RBs and are a little different in how we treat that position anyway. Special teams still elite. Probably only need a couple of guys for the defense in our front 7. TE is hard to tell with two rookies basically redshirting. WR and QB need help for sure, but might not be quite as bad as we think if Stidham can play. I do like Byrd and Meyers a little, and always possible that Gunner develops like Edelman did.

We have a ton of cap room, and are surely getting some nice comp picks from Brady, Van Noy, and Collins. I think we can survive losing Gilmore if it happens, and we may even get something nice for him.

But that is just a lot of what ifs right there, lol.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1288 » by Bleeding Green » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:22 pm

I have no expectation for Gunner to be more than an average returner/5th WR type in his best years. He's just not that quick or agile. Prime Edelman was one of the most agile guys in the NFL, super quick. He'd always make multiple guys miss on punt returns and he'd be open 1 yards from the line of scrimmage. Gunner is average at best athletically. And he's small. If he weren't white, no one would ever compare him to Edelman. He's had some nice returns lately, but has he had to make anyone really miss?

This could easily be a good team next year. Like you say, tons of capspace, extra picks, a few intriguing young players on the roster. Even this year, they're a COVID outbreak and a couple late-game miscues from being a playoff team. There just aren't that many good NFL teams.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1289 » by Captain_Caveman » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:34 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:I have no expectation for Gunner to be more than an average returner/5th WR type in his best years. He's just not that quick or agile. Prime Edelman was one of the most agile guys in the NFL, super quick. He'd always make multiple guys miss on punt returns and he'd be open 1 yards from the line of scrimmage. Gunner is average at best athletically. And he's small. If he weren't white, no one would ever compare him to Edelman. He's had some nice returns lately, but has he had to make anyone really miss?

This could easily be a good team next year. Like you say, tons of capspace, extra picks, a few intriguing young players on the roster. Even this year, they're a COVID outbreak and a couple late-game miscues from being a playoff team. There just aren't that many good NFL teams.


All true. One nitpick, though. While we dropped some close games, we won just as many of them. Very nearly lost to the Jets, needed a last second FG to avoid OT vs the Cards, and that complete downpour during the Ravens final drive was a little fortuitous. I've felt like we were a 6-8 win team ever since the opt outs, personally.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1290 » by Bleeding Green » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:38 pm

That's fair. The season is only 16 games long, sometimes you win all the close ones, sometimes you lose 'em all. Typically they did the little things right the last 20 years to skew more towards the former.

But with no margin for error and a handful of trash decisions in high leverage moments, they are just another team when it comes to winning/losing close games.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1291 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:16 pm

Captain_Caveman wrote:
SmartWentCrazy wrote:
Captain_Caveman wrote:I’m past calling anyone out. I just don’t want to watch this offense anymore lol.


The tough part is I dont think people truly realize how far away we are right now. This wont be a 1 year downturn, gonna take multiple offseasons to fix our pisspoor offense.


I'm starting to feel a little hopeful, but yeah.

Lots of young talent developing on defense and the o-line not bad at all. We still have RBs and are a little different in how we treat that position anyway. Special teams still elite. Probably only need a couple of guys for the defense in our front 7. TE is hard to tell with two rookies basically redshirting. WR and QB need help for sure, but might not be quite as bad as we think if Stidham can play. I do like Byrd and Meyers a little, and always possible that Gunner develops like Edelman did.

We have a ton of cap room, and are surely getting some nice comp picks from Brady, Van Noy, and Collins. I think we can survive losing Gilmore if it happens, and we may even get something nice for him.

But that is just a lot of what ifs right there, lol.


Our front 7 on d is amongst the worst in football. Getting Hightower back helps some, but he’ll also be 31 and I could see BB preferring cap space over him [cutting him frees up 10M in cap space]. Guy is also a FA.

Our O Line is great, but we do need to re-sign Thuney and Andrews. Onwenu’s emergence likely means we cut Cannon to free up another 4M+. Still, they should be our strongest unit going forward [assuming we trade Gilmore].

RB, were set. James white is an FA and I’m guessing he’s gone to TB. I like JJ Taylor a lot in White’s former role going forward.

TE is a massive question at best and its fair to assume were worst in the league entering next season. WR also mirrors this. I like Byrd as a #4 WR and Myers as a slot guy, but were in trouble if theyre higher than that. I know Harry had a good game but he’s proven he cant be reliable as of now. Were not going to be able to fix this to a level needed to be a championship contender this offseason.

QB, were really ****. We need a high pick and were not getting it. The history of FA QBs making a difference is low. As is the history of late round QBs. Were going to need to package a future 1 to move up and BB aint gonna do it.

Guessing were relatively muted in FA next offseason. We’ll re-sign some guys. We’ll shop the bargain bins and probably try to roll over a good chunk of cap space for the following offseason where were closer to contending.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1292 » by SmartWentCrazy » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:19 pm

My hot take is that nome of the opt outs are back next year, other than Chung where its cheaper to keep him opposed to cutting him. We likely cut the rest for cap savings.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1293 » by GoCeltics123 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:44 pm

I think the Pats could trade for Stafford for next year, FWIW. Wouldn't shock me
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1294 » by 31to6 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:18 pm

Asswater called and wants its asswater back.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1295 » by Parliament10 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:41 pm

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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1296 » by soxfan2003 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:29 pm

SmartWentCrazy wrote:My hot take is that nome of the opt outs are back next year, other than Chung where its cheaper to keep him opposed to cutting him. We likely cut the rest for cap savings.


I suspect BB wants Hightower back. Whether Hightower wants to come back -- there has been that retirement rumor -- and whether BB is okay paying him that salary in a different cap environment is a different story. But Rob Gronkowki was clearly more past his peak than Hightower and Gronk came back very well after a year off. BB I am sure has noticed that. And Hightower was probably not in danger of being cut heading into this year and his salary next year is just pretty much the same it would be this year. Defense has clearly suffered without him. One of the best Patriots defenders of all time so I doubt BB cuts him over just 1-2 million difference in salaries in a one year deal.

I kind of expect Hightower to retire but if he doesn't, I wouldn't be surprised if he signs a one year extension.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1297 » by Bleeding Green » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:55 pm

Hightower probably had his best year ever last year so I don't think he's washed at all. He could retire, but just playing one more year would increase his career earnings by nearly 30% so it's hard to really turn that down for most people. Especially after a year off he should be feeling pretty fresh, at least as fresh as you can after playing football for 20 years.

He's wildly underpaid for a top-end inside linebacker. He should easily be making 15+ a season. Even if they were to cut him they only save 6m I think.

I don't think just because a player didn't want to play football during an uncertain pandemic when the league showed zero interest in player safety that it means the players won't be back at all.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1298 » by GoCeltics123 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:16 pm

Kyle Dugger feels like the Timelord of the Patriots. Amazing athlete but makes so many mistakes
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1299 » by The Comedian » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:23 pm

GoCeltics123 wrote:Kyle Dugger feels like the Timelord of the Patriots. Amazing athlete but makes so many mistakes


Far, far better than RW3.

Just a rookie who came out of division
43 adjusting to the NFL.
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Re: General Boston Sports Thread, Phase 2 

Post#1300 » by Kemba For Three » Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:18 am

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