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Zaschrona wrote:I expect Warriors to trade Russell this season for the best package of role players and picks. They will need to retool and avoid the tax for at least a year.
Or can they make work longterm a line-up of Curry - Russell - Thompson - Looney - Draymond?
Slartibartfast wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Darth Celtic wrote:He is buddies with Tatum, and he is a star. But i'm not sure Danny wants a guy who is that bad on defense while trading 2 much better and longer defenders. On top of the griz pick. I could see JB/Smart/Semi and the bucks pick offered maybe. Danny holds JB in high regard and it sounds like teams keep calling about him too. The average Jo on realgm seems to undervalue him, c's and other fans alike.
Raptors fans saying OG and Powell plus a mid round pick from them beats the Celtics offer of smart/JB. Like.. what?
yea tbh i've been all aboard the get beal train but i also understand there's a heavy cost and get not going after him. i'm one of the guys who undervalues brown's ceiling but i see the potential and why he is so highly valued. i just question if he ever really get's there. also scared of his price tag that is most def coming.
i also don't think beal's defense is as bad as everyone makes it out to be but again we would be losing an all nba 1st team defender for him and putting him with kemba so there has to be reservation an it makes sense.
i just think kemba/beal/hayward/tatum with stevens would be deadly and given an offseason next summer to add depth and defensive dogs with heart and toughness they would have a chance to win it all.
I think that line-up would be a big mistake. Four guys whose primary claim to stardom is their ability to create and score. Putting them all together is taking stardom away from at least one of them and probably two. If Kemba is scoring 19ppg as a 2nd/3rd option is he worth his backed up Brinks truck?
It's a great offensive group, but the whole would be less than the sum - four 20+ppg talents are not gonna average 20+ppg on the same roster. And none of those guys is a star without averaging 20+ except for maybe Tatum if his man D makes a leap.
The gold plated championship foundation is a pair of top 10 stars or a superstar big man with dynamite supporting casts. MJ/Pippen, Hakeem, Kobe/Shaq, Duncan, Pierce/KG, Kobe/Gasol, Dirk, LBJ/Wade, Curry/KD, etc.
Stacking All-Star reserve talents only works when the talent fit and balance is awesome, like the 04 Pistons (Chauncey/Rip/Sheed/Ben) or the 14 Spurs (TP/Manu/young Kawhi/TD).
Tatum might be the best long-term talent on the roster, but it might be best to plan short-term contending with Kemba in mind.
Kemba's presence diminishes the value of another 25+ scoring guard. What you want next to Kemba is 16-20 ppg secondary weapons with defensive and playmaking strengths as well as off-ball comfort on offense. With Kemba so limited postionally and size wise, you'd like those support pieces to be on the bigger end too. Something like the 2012 editions of Pierce and KG.
I think Tatum's a decent fit for this model. He's a very good off-ball shooter. A very good 2nd option scorer. He's a plus defender (though not quite as versatile as you want next to Kemba). He's big for the wing. His playmaking is limited (especially when playing off a volume shooter like Kemba, you want your 2nd banana to be pretty good at setting other people up).
Jaylen is a decent fit too. Good off-ball. Has some potential as a 2nd option guy in the right set-ups. Good man defender with a lot of versatility. But even more of a playmaking problem than Tatum.
A most of the way back Hayward is the best fit offensively - a jack of all trades offensively, including high-quality secondary playmaking, but sketchy defensively.
I think Jaylen and Tatum could work as contender grade Kemba wingmen if you put a combo defensive/playmaking force like Draymond (or Giannis!) behind them.
I think Hayward (again, if he recovers) could work if you put a primo defensive frontcourt behind him (something like what Toronto had last year with Siakam/Gasol/Ibaka).
So I think we've got the wing covered. We just need to pick which wing(s) work best next to Kemba, and then use the surplus to get the right kind of championship grade big(s).
exculpatory wrote:Slartibartfast wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:
yea tbh i've been all aboard the get beal train but i also understand there's a heavy cost and get not going after him. i'm one of the guys who undervalues brown's ceiling but i see the potential and why he is so highly valued. i just question if he ever really get's there. also scared of his price tag that is most def coming.
i also don't think beal's defense is as bad as everyone makes it out to be but again we would be losing an all nba 1st team defender for him and putting him with kemba so there has to be reservation an it makes sense.
i just think kemba/beal/hayward/tatum with stevens would be deadly and given an offseason next summer to add depth and defensive dogs with heart and toughness they would have a chance to win it all.
I think that line-up would be a big mistake. Four guys whose primary claim to stardom is their ability to create and score. Putting them all together is taking stardom away from at least one of them and probably two. If Kemba is scoring 19ppg as a 2nd/3rd option is he worth his backed up Brinks truck?
It's a great offensive group, but the whole would be less than the sum - four 20+ppg talents are not gonna average 20+ppg on the same roster. And none of those guys is a star without averaging 20+ except for maybe Tatum if his man D makes a leap.
The gold plated championship foundation is a pair of top 10 stars or a superstar big man with dynamite supporting casts. MJ/Pippen, Hakeem, Kobe/Shaq, Duncan, Pierce/KG, Kobe/Gasol, Dirk, LBJ/Wade, Curry/KD, etc.
Stacking All-Star reserve talents only works when the talent fit and balance is awesome, like the 04 Pistons (Chauncey/Rip/Sheed/Ben) or the 14 Spurs (TP/Manu/young Kawhi/TD).
Tatum might be the best long-term talent on the roster, but it might be best to plan short-term contending with Kemba in mind.
Kemba's presence diminishes the value of another 25+ scoring guard. What you want next to Kemba is 16-20 ppg secondary weapons with defensive and playmaking strengths as well as off-ball comfort on offense. With Kemba so limited postionally and size wise, you'd like those support pieces to be on the bigger end too. Something like the 2012 editions of Pierce and KG.
I think Tatum's a decent fit for this model. He's a very good off-ball shooter. A very good 2nd option scorer. He's a plus defender (though not quite as versatile as you want next to Kemba). He's big for the wing. His playmaking is limited (especially when playing off a volume shooter like Kemba, you want your 2nd banana to be pretty good at setting other people up).
Jaylen is a decent fit too. Good off-ball. Has some potential as a 2nd option guy in the right set-ups. Good man defender with a lot of versatility. But even more of a playmaking problem than Tatum.
A most of the way back Hayward is the best fit offensively - a jack of all trades offensively, including high-quality secondary playmaking, but sketchy defensively.
I think Jaylen and Tatum could work as contender grade Kemba wingmen if you put a combo defensive/playmaking force like Draymond (or Giannis!) behind them.
I think Hayward (again, if he recovers) could work if you put a primo defensive frontcourt behind him (something like what Toronto had last year with Siakam/Gasol/Ibaka).
So I think we've got the wing covered. We just need to pick which wing(s) work best next to Kemba, and then use the surplus to get the right kind of championship grade big(s).
Thoughtful.
Insightful.
Agree w much of this.
I think JB is the wing who is moved (+/- Smart +/- Memphis) for a high quality big.
Beal very much intrigues me - but very expensive & how do we then get the high quality big we MUST have when the piggy bank is empty.
(Been traveling & working.)
MagicBagley18 wrote:Spoiler:
If we can get a high quality all star level big for that package- I’m all for it. I just don’t think it’s possible and I’m not even sure who would fit that criteria if it were. KAT isn’t available and Blake is too injured and on the downside of his prime. No thanks on love or Drummond and That package for Myles turner is an over pay to me and same with sabonis.
That’s why I think and agree with you that if brown is the odd man out that you have to maximize the value you get back and if that’s beal then just acquire talent and then maybe this season you don’t win a ring with that depth but it gives you an offseason to add to the bench and get a serviceable big in free agency.
I normally agree that you need top 10 talent to win it all and most def you did the last 5 years to even have a chance but the league is closer now than it has been before and I think if you have 2 top 20 guys and when healthy Hayward who can be top 20 you have a chance. I also think beal will get better. It also means that we hope Tatum turns into that superstar and as the other guys are descending he’s ascending to top 10 status and I think he’s a superstar in the making.
It doesn’t have to beal and I’m very open to another available all star but I feel way more comfortable get an all star player in return for brown and pay them the max than giving brown his max contract and hoping his potential pans out
Slartibartfast wrote:MagicBagley18 wrote:Spoiler:
If we can get a high quality all star level big for that package- I’m all for it. I just don’t think it’s possible and I’m not even sure who would fit that criteria if it were. KAT isn’t available and Blake is too injured and on the downside of his prime. No thanks on love or Drummond and That package for Myles turner is an over pay to me and same with sabonis.
That’s why I think and agree with you that if brown is the odd man out that you have to maximize the value you get back and if that’s beal then just acquire talent and then maybe this season you don’t win a ring with that depth but it gives you an offseason to add to the bench and get a serviceable big in free agency.
I normally agree that you need top 10 talent to win it all and most def you did the last 5 years to even have a chance but the league is closer now than it has been before and I think if you have 2 top 20 guys and when healthy Hayward who can be top 20 you have a chance. I also think beal will get better. It also means that we hope Tatum turns into that superstar and as the other guys are descending he’s ascending to top 10 status and I think he’s a superstar in the making.
It doesn’t have to beal and I’m very open to another available all star but I feel way more comfortable get an all star player in return for brown and pay them the max than giving brown his max contract and hoping his potential pans out
Brown isn't that huge of a risk at the max. Even if he stagnates, he'll be movable for his playoff pedigree, age and 2-way game. Otto Porter and Harrison Barnes are the most recent examples.
In fact I like JB best of our forward trio. The best athlete. The best and most versatile man defender. He's the best at generating points playing off of others or picking up scraps, and I think he can develop into a prime Richard Jefferson/Corey Maggette style volume scorer if we need him to absorb usage.
jmr07019 wrote:Gotta think the Magic would have interest in moving Bamba. Vucevuc and Gordon have big contracts. Isaac fits better next to those 2 than Bamba does. We would certainly need to send some value out but I think Bamba would be worth it. 14/11 per36 as a rookie. Bamba's potential is an elite defender / rebounder / finisher at the rim who is competent shooting and passing. His prime would align with that of Tatum, Brown and Smart's. Maybe the Magic would be interested in something like Edwards, Memphis pick + salary filler.
Andrew McCeltic wrote:jmr07019 wrote:Gotta think the Magic would have interest in moving Bamba. Vucevuc and Gordon have big contracts. Isaac fits better next to those 2 than Bamba does. We would certainly need to send some value out but I think Bamba would be worth it. 14/11 per36 as a rookie. Bamba's potential is an elite defender / rebounder / finisher at the rim who is competent shooting and passing. His prime would align with that of Tatum, Brown and Smart's. Maybe the Magic would be interested in something like Edwards, Memphis pick + salary filler.
Probably belongs in another thread.. not sure what Orlando will do, for years it seemed like they had to decide whether to trade Vucevic or build around him, and they never really did either. Right now they’ve got Vuc, Bamba, Isaac, Gordon and Aminu in their frontcourt - I could see Jaylen or Hayward appealing to them, or Smart, and they’re in a position where they could trade any of Bamba/Isaac/Gordon. They could be a dark horse for Bradley Beal, I guess. But Edwards/MEM pick for Bamba isn’t happening.
He’s probably not wrong though! Kd and Kyrie are just too perfect for each other. jmr07019 wrote:Andrew McCeltic wrote:jmr07019 wrote:Gotta think the Magic would have interest in moving Bamba. Vucevuc and Gordon have big contracts. Isaac fits better next to those 2 than Bamba does. We would certainly need to send some value out but I think Bamba would be worth it. 14/11 per36 as a rookie. Bamba's potential is an elite defender / rebounder / finisher at the rim who is competent shooting and passing. His prime would align with that of Tatum, Brown and Smart's. Maybe the Magic would be interested in something like Edwards, Memphis pick + salary filler.
Probably belongs in another thread.. not sure what Orlando will do, for years it seemed like they had to decide whether to trade Vucevic or build around him, and they never really did either. Right now they’ve got Vuc, Bamba, Isaac, Gordon and Aminu in their frontcourt - I could see Jaylen or Hayward appealing to them, or Smart, and they’re in a position where they could trade any of Bamba/Isaac/Gordon. They could be a dark horse for Bradley Beal, I guess. But Edwards/MEM pick for Bamba isn’t happening.
We don't have a trade thread so....
If Vuc, Isaac, Gordon is ever going to work they need elite shooting at the guard spots. Edwards has a lot to prove but he certainly looks shooting thing down. Trade wouldn't happen this offseason but if Edwards and Memphis pick both appreciate in value before the trade deadline I could see Orlando having interest.
Andrew McCeltic wrote:jmr07019 wrote:Gotta think the Magic would have interest in moving Bamba. Vucevuc and Gordon have big contracts. Isaac fits better next to those 2 than Bamba does. We would certainly need to send some value out but I think Bamba would be worth it. 14/11 per36 as a rookie. Bamba's potential is an elite defender / rebounder / finisher at the rim who is competent shooting and passing. His prime would align with that of Tatum, Brown and Smart's. Maybe the Magic would be interested in something like Edwards, Memphis pick + salary filler.
Probably belongs in another thread.. not sure what Orlando will do, for years it seemed like they had to decide whether to trade Vucevic or build around him, and they never really did either. Right now they’ve got Vuc, Bamba, Isaac, Gordon and Aminu in their frontcourt - I could see Jaylen or Hayward appealing to them, or Smart, and they’re in a position where they could trade any of Bamba/Isaac/Gordon. They could be a dark horse for Bradley Beal, I guess. But Edwards/MEM pick for Bamba isn’t happening.
