Change Offensive Philosophy?

[ddb]

Hello all,
I am a first time poster but have been viewing/reading this Celtics Forum for many years. Thank you to the Administrators, Moderators and all fans who come here or post here!
When I see Golden State play, to me seems like their offensive philosophy is pass/move the ball around until their top 3 (Durant, Curry or Thompson) or top 4 (with Cousins) are open or get them open through cuts, etc. and they pretty much take most of the shots. Of course, in the post season D. Green has joined the club. Where as Brad Stevens system has an equal opportunity offense, anyone who is open takes the shots unless Kyrie pushes the issue and goes solo to get his number of shots throwing of Steven's flow. This system can work if all players are fairly good shooters but we have some guys who shoot 42% or lower so naturally our offense will struggle with a lower FG%. To compensate for that, we have to play great defense that requires good energy and focus. I hope Brad Stevens introduces some tweaks to his system and Ainge gets a couple of good shooters even for off the bench. Just my opinion of course. On a separate topic, Kyrie will cost us $38M with his super max deal now so I think Ainge should let him go so we can develop the star potential of Tatum, Brown and feature a healthy Hayward with hopefully Horford coming back. Bring back Kyrie only if A. Davis comes over.

Welcome to the show bud! This is a great group of Celtics/NBA fans, most of which are pretty knowledgeable.

I get where you are going with this take but it's also important to note that winning breeds confidence. Right after Haywards injury during the long winning streak the Celtics were starting to remind me of young GS Warriors. The Celts had that swagger and it damn well took them to the finals despite injuries.
For whatever reason they lost it this season. chemistry was an issue. I still think they will get it back but the Warriors are the Warriors because they have fun, play loose, and KNOW they can beat anyone. They are dialed in.



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[zoyathedestroya]

Corner threes, transition baskets, inside scoring, and getting to the free throw line. Those are areas the team should focus on next season. Getting an athletic rolling big and teaching the young guys to cut and move without the ball would help increase our paint points and free throw rate.

[cloverleaf]

Hello all,
I am a first time poster but have been viewing/reading this Celtics Forum for many years. Thank you to the Administrators, Moderators and all fans who come here or post here!
When I see Golden State play, to me seems like their offensive philosophy is pass/move the ball around until their top 3 (Durant, Curry or Thompson) or top 4 (with Cousins) are open or get them open through cuts, etc. and they pretty much take most of the shots. Of course, in the post season D. Green has joined the club. Where as Brad Stevens system has an equal opportunity offense, anyone who is open takes the shots unless Kyrie pushes the issue and goes solo to get his number of shots throwing of Steven's flow. This system can work if all players are fairly good shooters but we have some guys who shoot 42% or lower so naturally our offense will struggle with a lower FG%. To compensate for that, we have to play great defense that requires good energy and focus. I hope Brad Stevens introduces some tweaks to his system and Ainge gets a couple of good shooters even for off the bench. Just my opinion of course. On a separate topic, Kyrie will cost us $38M with his super max deal now so I think Ainge should let him go so we can develop the star potential of Tatum, Brown and feature a healthy Hayward with hopefully Horford coming back. Bring back Kyrie only if A. Davis comes over.

Welcome to the show bud! This is a great group of Celtics/NBA fans, most of which are pretty knowledgeable.

I get where you are going with this take but it's also important to note that winning breeds confidence. Right after Haywards injury during the long winning streak the Celtics were starting to remind me of young GS Warriors. The Celts had that swagger and it damn well took them to the finals despite injuries.
For whatever reason they lost it this season. chemistry was an issue. I still think they will get it back but the Warriors are the Warriors because they have fun, play loose, and KNOW they can beat anyone. They are dialed in.



Sent from my SM-G960U using RealGM mobile app

The Warriors know they can beat anyone, because they can. The C's in their peak over the past decade couldn't make it out of a weak East. I'm with our Newbie in wanting to see JT, JB and GH handle the offensive load next year--and in not wanting to bring Kyrie back unless he's no more than #2 on the team. I think four years of the me-me-offensive-me strutting of IT and KI was a disastrous influence on the team culture, that finally fell to it this year. I'm hopeful the young guys we keep can steer themselves out of that selfish perspective this year, but I think it will take some coaching and team leadership changes to get them there.

[Darth Celtic]

Yeah, that is our offensive system. We just had a lot of guys not follow it, and really bad shooting games. Unfortunately we had 4 of those in a row to end the season.

Defense might need more length.

Kyrie can't sign a supermax with anyone.

[OldCeltics]

Brad Stevens said at beginning of year they would overhaul the offense.

They did..

It sucked, and was worse..

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[LuckyLeprechaun]

The 2017-18 Celtics played Brad ball. The 2018-19 Celtics played Kyrie ball.

[zoyathedestroya]

FWIW (probably nothing)...

In 322 possessions, the Celtics scored 115.8 points per 100 possessions and limited opponents to 101.2 points per 100 possessions whenever Hayward, Brown, and Tatum shared the floor without both Horford and Irving.

That 14.6 net rating would be in the 98th percentile among 5-man lineups in the league with at least 100 possessions.

Source: cleaningtheglass.com

[darrendaye]

Let's see what they learned from this season. Folks in here were rather critical of Kelly Olynyk and his tendency to defer. I'd bet a fair number of them would have loved to have him playing the minutes Morris got (from an offensive perspective). Horford's loss is also going to be felt offensively. I'm looking at how they approach the bigs in roster construction because bigs moving the ball is a large component of Brad's offense. Grant Williams likely has a spot in the rotation penciled in with hopefully a fallback plan option too. It's why I point to Robert Williams and his ability to see openings fairly quickly as a ball handling big. The bigs guiding the ball side to side in the half-court looking for matchups they can exploit on the perimeter as job #1.

From there you hope that all of the wing scorers Ainge has accumulated make smart, aggressive decisions. Danny has focused on guys who can get to the rim and break their man down one on one. Isolation scorers aren't a problem until they stop the ball to the detriment of better options. These guys have to learn how much "dribble setup" time is appropriate and when to swing the ball to someone similarly adept but with a better opening to attack. When your offense is predicated on moving the ball and shared responsibility, willingness to defer and quick decision making are traits they should be focused on and I sense they know this now.

Take Jaylen Brown, for instance. I actually think he checks both boxes. One concern people had about him is as a "thinker" is potentially having a longer processing time as someone who has a thirst for knowledge in a variety of interests rather than someone more narrowly focused (like most of the rest of us, lol). The dilemma with him is he's not an elite threat at either shooting 3's or one on one scoring and his next contract is likely to reflect he should be expected to be at some point. But he does, to me, seem to make quick decisions to attack or pass out. Anyway, guys like Tatum are going to have to learn how to stay ready and aggressive when they have an opening early after the catch but be looking around and ready to swing the ball quickly when they don't. Drive, kick, swing, move.

[Bleeding Green]

The offensive philosophy is great, you just need the players who can hit open threes. This team creates a lot of open threes every year, but if you have guys bricking everything when it matters, what good is it?

Get rid of the guys who shoot midrange shots below 45%, which is almost everyone. Or just coach them to not take them (a truly novel approach, I know) I'd really like if they could force certain players into certain types of shots. Hayward, Brown, Kemba can take midrange shots (only when they are forced to, though), no one else (especially Tatum). Maybe GWill or Langford or Edwards will prove to be not-awful there, but I'm not assuming that. Until the Celtics lead the league in threes taken by 20%, they aren't taking enough of them.

[Ernest]

Yeah but if the other teams know you are never going to shoot a mid range shot it hurts your ability to drive. Shot fakes become meaningless if they know you won't shoot. They can also not guard you as close which makes driving harder. I get that the analytics say never shoot anything but a 3 or dunk, but it's not that simple. Each thing effects other things. If you would like to read more of my new age meditations please subscribe to my newsletter!

[RB34]

We need to double the amount of dribble hand-offs we do!

[zoyathedestroya]

Half of our offensive playbook are out the window with Al's departure. I trust Stevens to come up with new sets that focus on our wing strength. I'm more confident that the players left on the roster would buy in. Young players are easier to mold. Kemba, Smart, and Hayward are team-first vets. Losing a skilled big like Horford hurts us bad. Hoping for at least one screen-roll big that can play above the rim and a stretch big to add options in our attack.

[sam_I_am]

Our new offensive philosophy.....score 125 ppg or lose.

[zoyathedestroya]

Run a ton of Kemba-Hayward/G.Williams pick-and-rolls (ala Curry-Draymond) w/ R.Williams at the dunker spot catching lobs or putting back misses. We actually have an above-the-rim big now that can play the Looney/Bogut role.

[zoyathedestroya]

Read on Twitter

BIG IF TRUE. Although Kemba is at his best when he has the ball in his hands (esp. in the PnR), I'd still go for what's best for the TEAM. If he's willing to sacrifice individual numbers in favor of team success, YAY! Less usage/touches for Kemba also means more for Tatum, Hayward, and Brown, hopefully. Gordon was hardest hit last season by being relegated to the 4th or 5th option on offense. His usage was way down from what he was used to in Utah.

[sam_I_am]

Our new offensive philosophy.....score 125 ppg or lose.

I meant score 120 points and win! This thread was so ahead of the curve and we are seeing it now. Losing Al and Kyrie has been such a boost to the offense. Passing has been quick and ISOs have practically disappeared except when Tatum gets it with 5 sec. left on shot clock which is when we want him to. We will definitely miss Al on defense and especially in playoffs when he has historically stepped up his game. However, the perimeter defense with Smart, Hayward, Brown and Tatum has been outstanding.

Coming into this season most of us have wondered how we can stop Embiid, Simmons and Giannis from scoring in the paint as this is a legitimate concern. But those teams might find themselves struggling to keep up with our pace. I can’t wait to see opening night against Sixers. I’m still a little pessimistic but our depth is going to allow the team to play at a frantic pace. Regardless of results, it is going to be lots of fun to watch.

[zoyathedestroya]

I do think our offensive philosophy has changed over the years. We used to be all about ball movement and passing up a good shot for a great shot. We also used to play at a higher pace during the IT years. Check out the shift/comparison in the charts below:

Spoiler:

So yes, Stevens does adapt to his personnel and the skills of his best players. I think this season we've seen the least passes per game compared to the past few seasons. We're not a particularly great passing team to begin with. Better than last season with the subtraction of Mook and Rozier, but apart from Hayward and Smart, our players aren't really known for their passing.

We've become more of a mixed bag on offense instead of a team that constantly shares the ball and anyone can just take the best shot available. Tatum is allowed more than ever to handle the ball and face up against a mismatch. Brown is afforded that leeway to a lesser extent. We run a ton of PnRs/handoffs for Smart, Kemba, and Hayward. We post up Kanter and almost any guy who has a clear advantage inside.

We don't limit ourselves to the restricted area and threes the way Nets or Rockets do. We have efficient midrange shooters in Brown and Hayward so they take those shots when they get to their spots and are open.

The hierarchy in shot attempts has also been clearer than ever. It's Tatum and Kemba (when healthy) at the top then Brown then Hayward/Smart then Kanter off the bench then the rest fight for scraps.

While I do prefer more ball movement and higher pace, the results speak for themselves. Per cleaningtheglass.com, we have the 3rd best offensive rating against the top 10 defenses of the league and 4th best offensive rating in general. If we can get to the line more often, that would be greaaaat. Tatum's FT rate has increased the past few weeks so that's a good sign.

Original source of offensive style chart: https://fansided.com/2020/02/28/nylon-calculus-categorizing-nba-teams-offensive-style/

[Fencer reregistered]

The hierarchy in shot attempts has also been clearer than ever. It's Tatum and Kemba (when healthy) at the top then Brown then Hayward/Smart then Kanter off the bench then the rest fight for scraps.

Brad has made it clear this season he believes in feeding the hot hand. Most commonly, that's been Tatum's. But five different guys this season have had games of 34 points or more, which I imagine is a pretty unusual thing. It didn't happen for the mid-80s Celtics, for example, since neither DJ nor any of the key reserves had games scoring that high. The 80s Lakers got close but weren't quite there.