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Tatum and Brown

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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#121 » by s1ickd » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:32 am

radcot wrote:Do they have weaknesses? Sure. Have they shown flashes of having very high ceilings? Also sure. Will they refine their games and develop the consistency necessary to be All-Star caliber players? Tatum is 21. Brown is 22. Anyone who claims to know the answer to that last question is imho full of ****.


Those are some pretty Kawhi colored glasses. Vince? McGrady? Miller? Hill?

I recall those guys being all time great wings and being below average on D.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#122 » by ParticleMan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:49 am

LuckyLeprechaun wrote:
Jaqua92 wrote:
Wes-J wrote:Not really concerned about Tatum and Brown's development. It's more about if and when Hayward returns to his all-star form.

It's not just about these kids having nice talent and perhaps great upside, I kinda feel like what gets lost is the fact between the two they have considerable playoff experience. They are battle tested. This is so huge, it's being vastly understand IMO. That's precisely why I'm less inclined to go balls out for a non-committal AD.

I'm ready to roll with Tatum and Brown. Sick of the obsessing over AD. He doesn't want Boston. We need to get over it.
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ftw. we still have brown, tatum, maybe rob develops, plus 4 picks coming in. it's not like the larder is bare.

tatum/brown/hayward/smart/horford is by no means a title contender but there are some nice assets there. we could even think about unloading horford and/or hayward to a contender midseason if hayward returns to form.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#123 » by cloverleaf » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:46 am

In his recent podcast interview Tatum really disappointed with some of his mindset:

1) When asked what he was going to work on most this summer, he responded first by saying how much time his endorsement obligations were going to take this summer.
2) He was still all gooey about Kobe and talking about going out to LA to work with him again this summer--without mention of taking Pierce up on his offer, even after KG had twisted his arm to do so in front of Danny several months ago, and
3) He sounded like a pathetic 12-year-old talking about how his mother does every little thing for him by going into his apartment (they have separate apartments in the same building) to do his laundry, lay out his clothes, etc.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#124 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:44 am

I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#125 » by djFan71 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:22 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.

Agreed. Not that Tatum doesn't work on his craft - I think he's got a little of that Duncan demeanor. I'm not gonna say much, I'll just be in the gym. But, Jaylen seems like he's always, always trying to improve something - desparately. Sometimes it's not ball-related, but a lot of times it is. And I like when he gets fired up and really locked in, you can sense it. It's almost a little playoff-Rondo-y (not to that level yet). In both a good and bad sense. Doesn't happen enough is the bad sense, but when it does, it can be special.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#126 » by bucknersrevenge » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:42 am

djFan71 wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.

Agreed. Not that Tatum doesn't work on his craft - I think he's got a little of that Duncan demeanor. I'm not gonna say much, I'll just be in the gym. But, Jaylen seems like he's always, always trying to improve something - desparately. Sometimes it's not ball-related, but a lot of times it is. And I like when he gets fired up and really locked in, you can sense it. It's almost a little playoff-Rondo-y (not to that level yet). In both a good and bad sense. Doesn't happen enough is the bad sense, but when it does, it can be special.


Playing faster alongside Rozier actually suits Brown better than it does Tatum. And unlike Tatum neither of them have the nasty habit of taking the wrong shots. Say what you will about their consistency (and there is plenty to say), but the one issue Brown and Rozier don't have is that they generally don't take the worst shots available.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#127 » by LuckyLeprechaun » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:07 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.
I don't actually think Tatum has more "natural talent". What Tatum has on Brown is that he is way ahead on the development curve due to being raised by a bball coaching father and having trained with actual NBA players multiple times while growing up.

As far as "natural talent" I think the only thing special about him physically is his longer than average arms. He isn't super fast or quick put there. He is not only not strong, he is way underweight for his height and position. He can jump high enough, but he isn't "special" there either.

Brown is one of the fastest guys on the floor in terms of covering ground and he can jump really high really fast. Defensively this lets him guard more floor space than most guys, and offensively it makes him a great fast break outlet. But he is really really raw even after his 3rd season.

To me this means Brown has way more room to grow as a player because he has some special physical tools, it's a question of if he will fully develop his game and how long it will take him to do that. Tatum will likely see incremental gains in his game, but never take a huge Siakim style leap from 1 year to the next and unless he can bulk up to at least 225lbs if not 235lbs he will have some things he will just never be able to do out there.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#128 » by Tiny ball » Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:51 am

LuckyLeprechaun wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.
I don't actually think Tatum has more "natural talent". What Tatum has on Brown is that he is way ahead on the development curve due to being raised by a bball coaching father and having trained with actual NBA players multiple times while growing up.

As far as "natural talent" I think the only thing special about him physically is his longer than average arms. He isn't super fast or quick put there. He is not only not strong, he is way underweight for his height and position. He can jump high enough, but he isn't "special" there either.

Brown is one of the fastest guys on the floor in terms of covering ground and he can jump really high really fast. Defensively this lets him guard more floor space than most guys, and offensively it makes him a great fast break outlet. But he is really really raw even after his 3rd season.

To me this means Brown has way more room to grow as a player because he has some special physical tools, it's a question of if he will fully develop his game and how long it will take him to do that. Tatum will likely see incremental gains in his game, but never take a huge Siakim style leap from 1 year to the next and unless he can bulk up to at least 225lbs if not 235lbs he will have some things he will just never be able to do out there.
Tatums strength should come in time he is still very young.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#129 » by celtics543 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:13 am

If you twisted my arm and made me pick between Jaylen and Jayson then I think I pick Jaylen. He's not as polished as Tatum but he's a better athlete and I believe his ceiling is higher. How much more polished can Tatum get? He came into the league and seemed to have all the little tricks in the bag, sort of like how old man Paul Pierce was still effective because of the tricks he had. Tatum is a unique young guy because he's not a super athlete that needs to learn how to play, he knows how to play and just isn't a super athlete. I think that drastically lowers his ceiling. On the plus side it also raises his floor to a level you know he isn't going to be a bust. I just wonder how much experience is going to help him versus how much it helps Jaylen.

Basically Jaylen is an athlete who's learning to be a basketball player. Jayson is a basketball player who is going to find it hard to become a significantly better athlete.

It's nice to have both but I'd probably sell high on Tatum and try to keep Brown.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#130 » by JSABleedsGreen » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:22 pm

I’ve read a lot of these posts and agree with most and disagree with some. Both of these guys are very talented and both can be All Stars, probably Tatum more than Brown but both still have tremendous upside. Gordon Hayward was not the reason they underachieved. My reason for saying that is because yes Gordon played more minutes at times then he probably should have but the man passed the ball and moved it based on Stevens game design. #11 (I’m done saying his name) is the reason they both underachieved. The guys dribbles the ball for 10-15 secs on the shot clock then takes a shot or finally passes the ball but only after realizing he’s not getting to the rim and it’s more of a bail out pass. And now you want to have both of these guys to knock down shots when they touch the ball so infrequent. They are professionals and need to adjust, I get that.

To be honest I’m glad former #11 is moving on because the game flow was horrible to watch. We’ll get to see these guys play ball the way they should now......and mid way through the season you guys will change your opinion again and be like......they are all stars, “where was this last year?”.....um it’s simple #11 is gone
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#131 » by ermocrate » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:50 pm

I like how people jumped at Jayson throat because he is a St.Luois fan (duh)... I think someone has to stop idiotic fans from making more damages than the ones they have already done... No wonder players are not so big on coming here...
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#132 » by ermocrate » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:51 pm

JSABleedsGreen wrote:I’ve read a lot of these posts and agree with most and disagree with some. Both of these guys are very talented and both can be All Stars, probably Tatum more than Brown but both still have tremendous upside. Gordon Hayward was not the reason they underachieved. My reason for saying that is because yes Gordon played more minutes at times then he probably should have but the man passed the ball and moved it based on Stevens game design. #11 (I’m done saying his name) is the reason they both underachieved. The guys dribbles the ball for 10-15 secs on the shot clock then takes a shot or finally passes the ball but only after realizing he’s not getting to the rim and it’s more of a bail out pass. And now you want to have both of these guys to knock down shots when they touch the ball so infrequent. They are professionals and need to adjust, I get that.

To be honest I’m glad former #11 is moving on because the game flow was horrible to watch. We’ll get to see these guys play ball the way they should now......and mid way through the season you guys will change your opinion again and be like......they are all stars, “where was this last year?”.....um it’s simple #11 is gone

That’s complete and utter bull.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#133 » by Jaqua92 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:59 pm

ermocrate wrote:
JSABleedsGreen wrote:I’ve read a lot of these posts and agree with most and disagree with some. Both of these guys are very talented and both can be All Stars, probably Tatum more than Brown but both still have tremendous upside. Gordon Hayward was not the reason they underachieved. My reason for saying that is because yes Gordon played more minutes at times then he probably should have but the man passed the ball and moved it based on Stevens game design. #11 (I’m done saying his name) is the reason they both underachieved. The guys dribbles the ball for 10-15 secs on the shot clock then takes a shot or finally passes the ball but only after realizing he’s not getting to the rim and it’s more of a bail out pass. And now you want to have both of these guys to knock down shots when they touch the ball so infrequent. They are professionals and need to adjust, I get that.

To be honest I’m glad former #11 is moving on because the game flow was horrible to watch. We’ll get to see these guys play ball the way they should now......and mid way through the season you guys will change your opinion again and be like......they are all stars, “where was this last year?”.....um it’s simple #11 is gone

That’s complete and utter bull.
Complete nonsense.

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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#134 » by LuckyLeprechaun » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:14 pm

Tiny ball wrote:
LuckyLeprechaun wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.
I don't actually think Tatum has more "natural talent". What Tatum has on Brown is that he is way ahead on the development curve due to being raised by a bball coaching father and having trained with actual NBA players multiple times while growing up.

As far as "natural talent" I think the only thing special about him physically is his longer than average arms. He isn't super fast or quick put there. He is not only not strong, he is way underweight for his height and position. He can jump high enough, but he isn't "special" there either.

Brown is one of the fastest guys on the floor in terms of covering ground and he can jump really high really fast. Defensively this lets him guard more floor space than most guys, and offensively it makes him a great fast break outlet. But he is really really raw even after his 3rd season.

To me this means Brown has way more room to grow as a player because he has some special physical tools, it's a question of if he will fully develop his game and how long it will take him to do that. Tatum will likely see incremental gains in his game, but never take a huge Siakim style leap from 1 year to the next and unless he can bulk up to at least 225lbs if not 235lbs he will have some things he will just never be able to do out there.
Tatums strength should come in time he is still very young.

No doubt he will add some. The question is how much. Some guys have underdeveloped bodies their whole careers. Other guys like Giannis start with slight frames and in a few years add so much bulk you'd think they were taking HGH.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#135 » by timpiker » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:57 pm

LuckyLeprechaun wrote:
Tiny ball wrote:
LuckyLeprechaun wrote:I don't actually think Tatum has more "natural talent". What Tatum has on Brown is that he is way ahead on the development curve due to being raised by a bball coaching father and having trained with actual NBA players multiple times while growing up.

As far as "natural talent" I think the only thing special about him physically is his longer than average arms. He isn't super fast or quick put there. He is not only not strong, he is way underweight for his height and position. He can jump high enough, but he isn't "special" there either.

Brown is one of the fastest guys on the floor in terms of covering ground and he can jump really high really fast. Defensively this lets him guard more floor space than most guys, and offensively it makes him a great fast break outlet. But he is really really raw even after his 3rd season.

To me this means Brown has way more room to grow as a player because he has some special physical tools, it's a question of if he will fully develop his game and how long it will take him to do that. Tatum will likely see incremental gains in his game, but never take a huge Siakim style leap from 1 year to the next and unless he can bulk up to at least 225lbs if not 235lbs he will have some things he will just never be able to do out there.
Tatums strength should come in time he is still very young.

No doubt he will add some. The question is how much. Some guys have underdeveloped bodies their whole careers. Other guys like Giannis start with slight frames and in a few years add so much bulk you'd think they were taking HGH.


Duh....to HGH
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#136 » by mzepol » Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:49 am

bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.


This is why I'm starting to sour on Tatum and beginning to think I'd prefer Jaylen. It's like being a headhunter looking for the right candidate for a job: do you choose the one with all the accolades but has the wrong mindset? Or do you pick the one who doesn't have an impressive resume but has the right attitude and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done? A doer vs an achiever? I think Jayson has a doer mindset, while Jaylen has an achiever mindset.

I hope Jayson proves me wrong though. I really like the kid.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#137 » by bucknersrevenge » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 pm

mzepol wrote:
bucknersrevenge wrote:I'll tell you what. Tatum may have more natural talent than Brown and a higher upside but Brown is way more mature both mentally and physically than him. He's a hard worker and I think Jaylen has a better chance of reaching his real ceiling (whatever that may be) as a player than Tatum will. When he got drafted he set a goal of becoming VP of the NBA Player's Association and he accomplished that. I really would like to see him be a Celtic for a long time.


This is why I'm starting to sour on Tatum and beginning to think I'd prefer Jaylen. It's like being a headhunter looking for the right candidate for a job: do you choose the one with all the accolades but has the wrong mindset? Or do you pick the one who doesn't have an impressive resume but has the right attitude and is willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done? A doer vs an achiever? I think Jayson has a doer mindset, while Jaylen has an achiever mindset.

I hope Jayson proves me wrong though. I really like the kid.


Here's what concerns me about whether or not Jayson will be a top echelon scorer. He takes the worst shots from just inside the arc and he avoids contact like the plague. I always seem him trying to weave around guys and lay the ball in instead of playing through contact. Refs don't like that s**t and they don't give him calls when it's 50/50 on whether or not he got fouled. Now maybe that's a mindset you break out of as you enter your prime years and get stronger and maybe it isn't. All I know is that it's given me some pause for concern. Jaylen plays through contact more. He goes up strong more consistently. Hell even Rozier plays stronger. That's what bothers me anyway. I think Tatum will definitely be a volume scorer. Not sure how efficient he'll ever be.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#138 » by ParticleMan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:35 pm

All things considered I'd still rather have Tatum over Brown. Definitely more upside. But he has to learn from Paul Pierce how to be a scorer not just a shooter. I think the difference between Brown and Tatum is not that large. Brown has serious upside as well, that kind of athleticism, shooting, and D is damn uncommon. I like Brown's mental makeup too, he needs to harness his aggressiveness but I like guys who want to step up and make things happen when the chips are down. This is why I'm fine with giving up Tatum for AD so long as we keep Brown.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#139 » by cloverleaf » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:25 pm

ParticleMan wrote:All things considered I'd still rather have Tatum over Brown. Definitely more upside. But he has to learn from Paul Pierce how to be a scorer not just a shooter. I think the difference between Brown and Tatum is not that large. Brown has serious upside as well, that kind of athleticism, shooting, and D is damn uncommon. I like Brown's mental makeup too, he needs to harness his aggressiveness but I like guys who want to step up and make things happen when the chips are down. This is why I'm fine with giving up Tatum for AD so long as we keep Brown.


In his recent podcast interview, he talked about going out to LA to train with Kobe again--not Pierce.

I'm starting to think his stubborn and simple-minded immaturity will really hold him back. JB had his own weird mindset coming into the league, but I really got the sense he grew mentally and emotionally last season.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#140 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:21 pm

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