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Tatum and Brown

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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#21 » by cloverleaf » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:10 am

I'm bullish on both of them (and think they have different enough games to be complementary on the court--along with Hayward btw), but Brown has never had the BBIQ, vision or skills that you see in top-25 talent. To me, at his best Brown is more of a Dominique Wilkins-type talent (though probably only 80% of Wilkins). Nique had 9 AS bids, so no slouch of course, but not the type to lead a championship team.

Tatum's got to get his head straight and really dig in, but he's still only 21! He could either hum along with a decent career close to his current level of play or IMO make it into that top-10 level.

Second generation pro players like Tatum get such maximal coaching, direction and motivation early on that they tend to be hatched into the NBA as full players with less improvement, whereas guys like Brown who did more getting there on their own are likely to still be adding skills longer into their NBA careers.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#22 » by sully00 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:39 am

Bleeding Green wrote:
sully00 wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:A lot of it centers around their very poor passing ability. You very seldom see players who have such poor court vision and passing ability make it into any kind of top-25 list unless they are unbelievable talents otherwise. The only guys who you can put in the top-25 who don't pass/create for others are guys like Rudy Gobert. Tatum improved here this season to some extent, but I don't ever see him being an above-average passer, and when you see Brown make even a routine pass it is worthy of note, which isn't a great sign.


I don't agree with this. Brown doesn't turn the ball over and he doesn't dominate the ball he is a finisher nobody cared that James Worthy avg around 2 apg most of his career because his job was to finish. When he got older he became a better passer. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone were total black holes. Klay Thompson isn't a playmaker but everyone wants him on their team. If you dominate the ball and don't pass that is a problem but if you catch and shoot and attack the rim and minimize the BS other guys can create shots for others.

I think Tatum was trying to come into his own as a go to offensive option and learned a lot of what doesn't work. I don't think he is a bad passer as much as his judgement around when and where to isolate got a little weird but the whole team sort of broke down the more the ball didn't touch Al's hands.

Yeah if you need to compare them to the development tracks of Hall of Fame players, it's not that great of an argument. James Worthy eventually became a good passer. McHale was a power forward from a different era. Klay Thompson is the most overrated player in the NBA to me. Put him on some team without Steph Curry. Also he's one of the best shooters in NBA history. What are these generational traits that Tatum/Brown possess that will allow them to be top-25 NBA players without the ability to create for others? Brown and Tatum have very little innate feel for the game and where they are on the court, especially offensively. This 100 pct has to change or they'll both just be what-ifs.

But they're both young, so who knows. Generally players don't follow the James Worthy path, or we'd have a few thousand James Worthys in NBA history.


The James Worthy path comes from playing with Kareem and Magic. Most of the time guys who are shot creators need the basketball they do not play well off of the ball. That is what makes Klay Thompson so special and make Ray Allen such an asset for the Celtics is that they can score 20-30 points on about 30 seconds worth of ball handling.

Right now one of Boston's challenges is that Hayward needs the ball to be effective, at least from the standpoint of getting his game back to a star level. Horford is a facilitator but he isn't a go to scorer. I am not the believer in the transcendent star. Too rare and to emotional when you get them to necessarily be championship caliber in todays NBA. Honestly I don't think any of the Warriors "Stars" have the same impact in another situation. They are stars because they play in a complementary and cohesive unit. Throwing 3 guys out there that need the ball in their hands to get their games going to fail. That was the beauty of Pierce, KG and Ray Allen they played to their strengths to compliment each other.

So sure you want to see Brown improve his awareness and make better decisions in the half court you want to see Tatum recognize his opportunities to take guys one on one and to realize that if you have dribbled 5 times trying to set someone up it ain't going to work and pass the ball. But that is part of being young.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#23 » by sully00 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:44 am

cloverleaf wrote:I'm bullish on both of them (and think they have different enough games to be complementary on the court--along with Hayward btw), but Brown has never had the BBIQ, vision or skills that you see in top-25 talent. To me, at his best Brown is more of a Dominique Wilkins-type talent (though probably only 80% of Wilkins). Nique had 9 AS bids, so no slouch of course, but not the type to lead a championship team.

Tatum's got to get his head straight and really dig in, but he's still only 21! He could either hum along with a decent career close to his current level of play or IMO make it into that top-10 level.

Second generation pro players like Tatum get such maximal coaching, direction and motivation early on that they tend to be hatched into the NBA as full players with less improvement, whereas guys like Brown who did more getting there on their own are likely to still be adding skills longer into their NBA careers.


I am pretty sure Dominique was a top 5 talent most of his career, he didn't lead a championship team because of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. Reggie Miller is another guy in the HOF who was tremendous at a couple of things but was far from the complete super star talent.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#24 » by cloverleaf » Tue Jun 4, 2019 4:08 pm

sully00 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:I'm bullish on both of them (and think they have different enough games to be complementary on the court--along with Hayward btw), but Brown has never had the BBIQ, vision or skills that you see in top-25 talent. To me, at his best Brown is more of a Dominique Wilkins-type talent (though probably only 80% of Wilkins). Nique had 9 AS bids, so no slouch of course, but not the type to lead a championship team.

Tatum's got to get his head straight and really dig in, but he's still only 21! He could either hum along with a decent career close to his current level of play or IMO make it into that top-10 level.

Second generation pro players like Tatum get such maximal coaching, direction and motivation early on that they tend to be hatched into the NBA as full players with less improvement, whereas guys like Brown who did more getting there on their own are likely to still be adding skills longer into their NBA careers.


I am pretty sure Dominique was a top 5 talent most of his career, he didn't lead a championship team because of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. Reggie Miller is another guy in the HOF who was tremendous at a couple of things but was far from the complete super star talent.


No, Nique was spectacular to watch and certainly could score, but wasn't the type to, as they say, make his teammates (or to a degree his team) better.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#25 » by cloverleaf » Tue Jun 4, 2019 4:11 pm

BRUNiNHO91 wrote:
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.


Both could be. Jaylen isn't as skilled, but is better in the open court and a better defender as of now. His attitude is also a lot more alpha than Tatum. Middleton never averaged more than 13ppg until his 4th season when he was 23. Look at him now. Jimmy played 38mpg in his 3rd NBA season at age 24 and averaged 13ppg. Hayward 14ppg in year 3 as a 22 year old. The most notable one, Kawhi 13ppg in his 3rd year at age 22. Most of those guys took great jumps in year 4..Paul George took a great one in year 3. Tatum at age 20 was already more productive than all these all stars at a more advanced age. Jaylen is pretty much right there with all of them. Obviously each player has his learning curve and reasons to why he did or did not play more, shoot more or whatever..but players take a while to develop. Victor Oladipo regressed for two straight years and looked like a nobody until he blew up in year 5 as a 25 year old. Just imagine where Tatum and Brown could be at 25.


Tatum has sneaky length on D, is a smarter player, and is out of position less often on team D. So I go with his D at this point, unless you are talking about a motivated JB focusing on a particular man-to-man defensive challenge. And he comes off at this point as more alpha, but I'm not so sure he's more than his year advantage ahead of Tatum on that.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#26 » by cloverleaf » Tue Jun 4, 2019 4:12 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:A lot of it centers around their very poor passing ability. You very seldom see players who have such poor court vision and passing ability make it into any kind of top-25 list unless they are unbelievable talents otherwise. The only guys who you can put in the top-25 who don't pass/create for others are guys like Rudy Gobert. Tatum improved here this season to some extent, but I don't ever see him being an above-average passer, and when you see Brown make even a routine pass it is worthy of note, which isn't a great sign.


Fair assessment all around.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#27 » by Bleeding Green » Tue Jun 4, 2019 5:46 pm

sully00 wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:
sully00 wrote:
I don't agree with this. Brown doesn't turn the ball over and he doesn't dominate the ball he is a finisher nobody cared that James Worthy avg around 2 apg most of his career because his job was to finish. When he got older he became a better passer. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone were total black holes. Klay Thompson isn't a playmaker but everyone wants him on their team. If you dominate the ball and don't pass that is a problem but if you catch and shoot and attack the rim and minimize the BS other guys can create shots for others.

I think Tatum was trying to come into his own as a go to offensive option and learned a lot of what doesn't work. I don't think he is a bad passer as much as his judgement around when and where to isolate got a little weird but the whole team sort of broke down the more the ball didn't touch Al's hands.

Yeah if you need to compare them to the development tracks of Hall of Fame players, it's not that great of an argument. James Worthy eventually became a good passer. McHale was a power forward from a different era. Klay Thompson is the most overrated player in the NBA to me. Put him on some team without Steph Curry. Also he's one of the best shooters in NBA history. What are these generational traits that Tatum/Brown possess that will allow them to be top-25 NBA players without the ability to create for others? Brown and Tatum have very little innate feel for the game and where they are on the court, especially offensively. This 100 pct has to change or they'll both just be what-ifs.

But they're both young, so who knows. Generally players don't follow the James Worthy path, or we'd have a few thousand James Worthys in NBA history.


The James Worthy path comes from playing with Kareem and Magic. Most of the time guys who are shot creators need the basketball they do not play well off of the ball. That is what makes Klay Thompson so special and make Ray Allen such an asset for the Celtics is that they can score 20-30 points on about 30 seconds worth of ball handling.

Right now one of Boston's challenges is that Hayward needs the ball to be effective, at least from the standpoint of getting his game back to a star level. Horford is a facilitator but he isn't a go to scorer. I am not the believer in the transcendent star. Too rare and to emotional when you get them to necessarily be championship caliber in todays NBA. Honestly I don't think any of the Warriors "Stars" have the same impact in another situation. They are stars because they play in a complementary and cohesive unit. Throwing 3 guys out there that need the ball in their hands to get their games going to fail. That was the beauty of Pierce, KG and Ray Allen they played to their strengths to compliment each other.

So sure you want to see Brown improve his awareness and make better decisions in the half court you want to see Tatum recognize his opportunities to take guys one on one and to realize that if you have dribbled 5 times trying to set someone up it ain't going to work and pass the ball. But that is part of being young.

I'm not discounting that they could improve, just that it's significantly more likely that they don't improve their passing/court vision/awareness since that's generally what happens with players. Some guys have it, others don't. Even in Robert WIlliams I see a more willing and able passer than what we've seen out of Brown so far. Tatum absolutely showed some flashes of hitting the right guy at the right time, but overall was pretty lackluster and just got the ball and put his head down. Which works for some guys if they are freaks like Kawhi. Or you just become Marcus Morris.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#28 » by sully00 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 5:52 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
sully00 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:I'm bullish on both of them (and think they have different enough games to be complementary on the court--along with Hayward btw), but Brown has never had the BBIQ, vision or skills that you see in top-25 talent. To me, at his best Brown is more of a Dominique Wilkins-type talent (though probably only 80% of Wilkins). Nique had 9 AS bids, so no slouch of course, but not the type to lead a championship team.

Tatum's got to get his head straight and really dig in, but he's still only 21! He could either hum along with a decent career close to his current level of play or IMO make it into that top-10 level.

Second generation pro players like Tatum get such maximal coaching, direction and motivation early on that they tend to be hatched into the NBA as full players with less improvement, whereas guys like Brown who did more getting there on their own are likely to still be adding skills longer into their NBA careers.


I am pretty sure Dominique was a top 5 talent most of his career, he didn't lead a championship team because of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. Reggie Miller is another guy in the HOF who was tremendous at a couple of things but was far from the complete super star talent.


No, Nique was spectacular to watch and certainly could score, but wasn't the type to, as they say, make his teammates (or to a degree his team) better.


I am sorry I saw those playoff series. There is no shame in losing to the '86 Celtics, the '87 Pistons, and the '88 Celtics Nique was amazing in the post season and his supporting cast was a joke he mode those dudes a ton of money.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#29 » by Celts17Pride » Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:30 pm

cloverleaf wrote:I'm bullish on both of them (and think they have different enough games to be complementary on the court--along with Hayward btw), but Brown has never had the BBIQ, vision or skills that you see in top-25 talent. To me, at his best Brown is more of a Dominique Wilkins-type talent (though probably only 80% of Wilkins). Nique had 9 AS bids, so no slouch of course, but not the type to lead a championship team.

Tatum's got to get his head straight and really dig in, but he's still only 21! He could either hum along with a decent career close to his current level of play or IMO make it into that top-10 level.

Second generation pro players like Tatum get such maximal coaching, direction and motivation early on that they tend to be hatched into the NBA as full players with less improvement, whereas guys like Brown who did more getting there on their own are likely to still be adding skills longer into their NBA careers.

Agree. The biggest thing holding Tatum, Brown and Hayward back is the right point guard to go with them in my opinion.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#30 » by AlCelticFan » Tue Jun 4, 2019 7:24 pm

Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.

I used to agree but Brown has shown up with some pretty sick games in the playoffs, and IMHO his mindset is more focused than Tatum. Who knows really, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone with Brown's focus and intensity get a lot better over the next 5 years.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#31 » by Half-Full » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:39 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:I think both guys each have their own glaring flaw.

Tatum: Shot selection. I truly believe shot selection is the only thing holding him back from being a borderline all star in the East. 40% 3pt shooter, 85% at the line and he finished at a very high rate of 68% at the basket last year. The problem is he is far to willing to just settle for a contested pull up mid range jumper. I think he can be deadly from the mid range, but it should never be his 1st or 2nd option. The mid range shot should be a changeup, not his go to move. He also needs to facilitate.

Brown: His handle is horrible. He is never going to be a consistent scoring threat until he improves his handle. Its way to slow and high. If he could improve his handle, he would be a terror slashing the basket. He is also a bad FT shooter and because of that, Im not sure how consistent he will be over his career from 3.


It's funny that you think Brown has a handle that is way too slow and high. I think Tatum's handle is slow, and definitely too high. While Jaylen is not an excellent FT shooter, he is not a bad one (unless you think 77% is a bad FT percentage).
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#32 » by Duke4life831 » Tue Jun 4, 2019 11:54 pm

Half-Full wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:I think both guys each have their own glaring flaw.

Tatum: Shot selection. I truly believe shot selection is the only thing holding him back from being a borderline all star in the East. 40% 3pt shooter, 85% at the line and he finished at a very high rate of 68% at the basket last year. The problem is he is far to willing to just settle for a contested pull up mid range jumper. I think he can be deadly from the mid range, but it should never be his 1st or 2nd option. The mid range shot should be a changeup, not his go to move. He also needs to facilitate.

Brown: His handle is horrible. He is never going to be a consistent scoring threat until he improves his handle. Its way to slow and high. If he could improve his handle, he would be a terror slashing the basket. He is also a bad FT shooter and because of that, Im not sure how consistent he will be over his career from 3.


It's funny that you think Brown has a handle that is way too slow and high. I think Tatum's handle is slow, and definitely too high. While Jaylen is not an excellent FT shooter, he is not a bad one (unless you think 77% is a bad FT percentage).


Tatum seems to be far more effective with his handle than Brown. Also not sure where you're getting the 77% for Brown. Shot 65% this year and is a career 65% shooter. Unless you're talking about the playoffs this year. A 9 game sample size is not enough to outweigh a 3 year sample size.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#33 » by Parasite » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:27 am

AlCelticFan wrote:
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.

I used to agree but Brown has shown up with some pretty sick games in the playoffs, and IMHO his mindset is more focused than Tatum. Who knows really, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone with Brown's focus and intensity get a lot better over the next 5 years.


Fair enough but with Brown’s game, in order for him to be a star he HAS to have good handles. Has to. I’ve been harping on this since his rookie year. They haven’t improved. If his focus was so good why haven’t they? He has to realize that without good handles, his particular strengths are largely nullified. So until I see some improvement there, I don’t think he becomes a star.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#34 » by AlCelticFan » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:35 am

Parasite wrote:
AlCelticFan wrote:
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.

I used to agree but Brown has shown up with some pretty sick games in the playoffs, and IMHO his mindset is more focused than Tatum. Who knows really, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone with Brown's focus and intensity get a lot better over the next 5 years.


Fair enough but with Brown’s game, in order for him to be a star he HAS to have good handles. Has to. I’ve been harping on this since his rookie year. They haven’t improved. If his focus was so good why haven’t they? He has to realize that without good handles, his particular strengths are largely nullified. So until I see some improvement there, I don’t think he becomes a star.

I mean, almost no one becomes a star, so it's an easy bet that he doesn't. But he's young and has a chance. That's all we can hope for -- that and trading one for AD :), we can hope for that as well.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#35 » by Parasite » Wed Jun 5, 2019 3:05 am

AlCelticFan wrote:
Parasite wrote:
AlCelticFan wrote:I used to agree but Brown has shown up with some pretty sick games in the playoffs, and IMHO his mindset is more focused than Tatum. Who knows really, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone with Brown's focus and intensity get a lot better over the next 5 years.


Fair enough but with Brown’s game, in order for him to be a star he HAS to have good handles. Has to. I’ve been harping on this since his rookie year. They haven’t improved. If his focus was so good why haven’t they? He has to realize that without good handles, his particular strengths are largely nullified. So until I see some improvement there, I don’t think he becomes a star.

I mean, almost no one becomes a star, so it's an easy bet that he doesn't. But he's young and has a chance. That's all we can hope for -- that and trading one for AD :), we can hope for that as well.


He’s a good player, seems like a good kid. But it’s just frustrating that he has a particularly glaring weakness and he hasn’t improved it at all. And with AD, we will see. I keep flopping back and forth if I think it’s worth it to bring him here. If he committed long term it would be but I just think he’s gone to LA no matter what. Idk. It’s rough. But that’s why Ainge gets the big bucks. He really can’t afford to **** this up though.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#36 » by djFan71 » Wed Jun 5, 2019 5:48 am

Parasite wrote:
AlCelticFan wrote:
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.

I used to agree but Brown has shown up with some pretty sick games in the playoffs, and IMHO his mindset is more focused than Tatum. Who knows really, but I wouldn't be surprised to see someone with Brown's focus and intensity get a lot better over the next 5 years.


Fair enough but with Brown’s game, in order for him to be a star he HAS to have good handles. Has to. I’ve been harping on this since his rookie year. They haven’t improved. If his focus was so good why haven’t they? He has to realize that without good handles, his particular strengths are largely nullified. So until I see some improvement there, I don’t think he becomes a star.

I feel like they have. They were BAD, BAD, BAD his rookie year. Now, they're BAD and he scares you a lot, but he actually makes some nice plays too. That full speed, length of the floor drive and pass to Tatum for the game winner - no way he does that his rookie year.

I completely agree they need to improve, but I think it's also a combo of that AND court awareness that need to improve together. I think he gets in trouble dribbling some times since he doesn't fully know what else happening as he's dribbling. If nobody's around, he can dribble pretty well. There's clips of him doing fancy dribbling drills, making little kids fall over, etc, just like everyone else has. But, when he gets in game action, that goes away. He just needs film study and reps, reps and more reps to increase his ability to dribble while a whole NBA game is going on around him. Compared to other 3 yr #3 picks, he hasn't gotten nearly those reps to improve.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#37 » by JR Hawks » Wed Jun 5, 2019 6:53 am

Brown is way behind where Pierce was at this age in his career. Unless Tatum makes a big jump next year, the same can be said for him.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#38 » by KevinGamble34 » Wed Jun 5, 2019 8:44 am

sully00 wrote:
cloverleaf wrote:
sully00 wrote:
I am pretty sure Dominique was a top 5 talent most of his career, he didn't lead a championship team because of Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Robert Parish. Reggie Miller is another guy in the HOF who was tremendous at a couple of things but was far from the complete super star talent.


No, Nique was spectacular to watch and certainly could score, but wasn't the type to, as they say, make his teammates (or to a degree his team) better.


I am sorry I saw those playoff series. There is no shame in losing to the '86 Celtics, the '87 Pistons, and the '88 Celtics Nique was amazing in the post season and his supporting cast was a joke he mode those dudes a ton of money.


So much this. Bird had McHale, Parish and DJ. Isaiah had Dumars, Dantley and Rodman. Who did Dominque have - Doc? Willis? Spud webb? I can't recall another HOF he had. I sometimes wonder about legacy of certain players who did not have the same supporting cast.

If Brown or Tatum turned out to be as good as Wilkins I would be over the moon, and Danny would put the talent around him for us to win. I can't see either reaching Wilkins level.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#39 » by Wes-J » Wed Jun 5, 2019 11:56 am

I've never seen the chemistry between Brown and Tatum. Now throw in Hayward?

Goes to show you there's more to roster building than NBA2k would indicate.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#40 » by OldCeltics » Wed Jun 5, 2019 2:41 pm

Tatum and Brown will both be all stars

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