ImageImageImage

Tatum and Brown

Moderators: ParticleMan, sully00, Froob, canman1971, The Comedian, Parliament10, djFan71

Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 20,192
And1: 7,818
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#341 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:29 am

PtruthP34 wrote:Also, can't seem to recall Jaylen ever taking a step-back jumper. Why is that? With his explosive first step he should be going to that more often a la Pierce. Does he just not feel comfortable shooting while on the move like that?


He has some backward leaning shots now, but generally in a more frenzied stop-and-pop than in a calm stepback.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,290
And1: 12,360
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#342 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:56 pm

sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 12,913
And1: 4,329
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#343 » by sam_I_am » Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:40 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:


Great video, thanks for posting.

The issue right now with our young studs....and I include Marcus Smart too ... is that they are still inconsistent. Kemba and Hayward (in Utah) have proven they can play at an all star level night in and night out for a season. You know you can get 20 from them every game with all around play as well. With Tatum....like a young Pierce....you can get an elite performance like the Bucks and then a stinker like Dallas. He is great 60% of the time. Brown is solid almost every night and then every 3rd or 4th game he flashes all star potential. Smart is the most inconsistent. He can literally will the team to a win with insane competitiveness and clutch shooting one day and be pretty mediocre the next 2.

This is going to be the biggest challenge with Hayward out - getting consistent top level performances from those guys on long road trips. Against Dallas, the team survived Tatum’s poor shooting thanks to Brown and Smart stepping up and Porzingas laying an egg too. However, without Hayward’s consistent play this season, the team won’t always be able to tolerate up and down play from these three. Kemba can’t do it alone.
Theocy
Pro Prospect
Posts: 777
And1: 695
Joined: Aug 27, 2017
 

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#344 » by Theocy » Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:14 pm

sam_I_am wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:


Great video, thanks for posting.

The issue right now with our young studs....and I include Marcus Smart too ... is that they are still inconsistent. Kemba and Hayward (in Utah) have proven they can play at an all star level night in and night out for a season. You know you can get 20 from them every game with all around play as well. With Tatum....like a young Pierce....you can get an elite performance like the Bucks and then a stinker like Dallas. He is great 60% of the time. Brown is solid almost every night and then every 3rd or 4th game he flashes all star potential. Smart is the most inconsistent. He can literally will the team to a win with insane competitiveness and clutch shooting one day and be pretty mediocre the next 2.

This is going to be the biggest challenge with Hayward out - getting consistent top level performances from those guys on long road trips. Against Dallas, the team survived Tatum’s poor shooting thanks to Brown and Smart stepping up and Porzingas laying an egg too. However, without Hayward’s consistent play this season, the team won’t always be able to tolerate up and down play from these three. Kemba can’t do it alone.


Gordon being out unfortunately limits our offence . Not just scoring wise. The ball goes through him 50% of the time. Kemba isn't a point guard in that sense. Gordon picked up Al's workload and to be Frank I think on this small sample size he does it much better. The fact is, Tatums success also depends on good ball movement as he struggles with generating for himself if the first buckets don't drop. Hayward had that role, reading the defence and directing traffic.

Crap basically I'm saying the dude has been balling out and it's not just the 20ppg.
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 12,913
And1: 4,329
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#345 » by sam_I_am » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:11 pm

Theocy wrote:
sam_I_am wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:


Great video, thanks for posting.

The issue right now with our young studs....and I include Marcus Smart too ... is that they are still inconsistent. Kemba and Hayward (in Utah) have proven they can play at an all star level night in and night out for a season. You know you can get 20 from them every game with all around play as well. With Tatum....like a young Pierce....you can get an elite performance like the Bucks and then a stinker like Dallas. He is great 60% of the time. Brown is solid almost every night and then every 3rd or 4th game he flashes all star potential. Smart is the most inconsistent. He can literally will the team to a win with insane competitiveness and clutch shooting one day and be pretty mediocre the next 2.

This is going to be the biggest challenge with Hayward out - getting consistent top level performances from those guys on long road trips. Against Dallas, the team survived Tatum’s poor shooting thanks to Brown and Smart stepping up and Porzingas laying an egg too. However, without Hayward’s consistent play this season, the team won’t always be able to tolerate up and down play from these three. Kemba can’t do it alone.


Gordon being out unfortunately limits our offence . Not just scoring wise. The ball goes through him 50% of the time. Kemba isn't a point guard in that sense. Gordon picked up Al's workload and to be Frank I think on this small sample size he does it much better. The fact is, Tatums success also depends on good ball movement as he struggles with generating for himself if the first buckets don't drop. Hayward had that role, reading the defence and directing traffic.

Crap basically I'm saying the dude has been balling out and it's not just the 20ppg.


It’s pretty amazing that when a guy like Gordon goes down, the next guy up is Brown ( or Smart ). The fact that there is a lottery pick talent in Langford that still won’t get minutes is a great sign of depth at the position. It’s just that our team as constructed relies on 3 guys getting 15-20 pts and when you can bank on Kemba and Gordon (9 game sample is small but convinced me he was back) every night you know that one of Smart/Tatum/Brown will come through. Kemba and Tatum can get their 20 most nights but can Smart or Brown be relied on when you don’t have Gordon attacking the rim and then whipping the ball around? Against many teams for sure they can.....but on road against Denver and LAC? Against Phoenix on back to back? On the road against weaker teams like Sac, GSW? It remains to be seen.
PtruthP34
Senior
Posts: 574
And1: 62
Joined: Dec 16, 2003

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#346 » by PtruthP34 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:01 am

Marvel wrote:
PtruthP34 wrote:Also, can't seem to recall Jaylen ever taking a step-back jumper. Why is that? With his explosive first step he should be going to that more often a la Pierce. Does he just not feel comfortable shooting while on the move like that?

Good point. maybe that's his next move he adds to his arsenal.

Would love to see him learn how to harness his nasty spin


That spin of his is nasty. Doesn't pull it out much anymore though. :cry:. One thing that has stood out to me with JB is his passing. He has really improved as a passer.


Proof Jaylen reads this board. Two sweet step-backs during that 3rd quarter flurry.
User avatar
31to6
RealGM
Posts: 12,538
And1: 13,998
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Location: all your picks

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#347 » by 31to6 » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:43 am

Love these guys and look forward to trading them to the Nets for a bunch of picks around 2030, after they’ve won us several titles.
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,290
And1: 12,360
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#348 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:44 pm

Read on Twitter
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 12,913
And1: 4,329
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#349 » by sam_I_am » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:05 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Read on Twitter


So to summarize.....

He leads NBA in +/- with +128 and Lebron is second at 96....AND ..... he is mired in a slump.

Our team is elite when he is on the court and as bad as NYKs when he rests .....AND .... he is mired in a slump.
User avatar
Green89
RealGM
Posts: 19,540
And1: 16,627
Joined: Apr 01, 2013

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#350 » by Green89 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:18 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Read on Twitter


You get better at finishing at the rim by consistent practice and work. Jaylen definitely put the effort in during this offseason, now it's Jayson's turn.
Ben-N1ce
RealGM
Posts: 13,733
And1: 10,046
Joined: Jul 18, 2009
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#351 » by Ben-N1ce » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:55 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Read on Twitter

Pretty much sums up his game right now. Brings a lot t the table but atrocious finisher, tunnel vision and doesn't pass enough. He's going to the rim double at least but worst percentage in all of basketball at the rim :lol: :-?
Ascrilas
Rookie
Posts: 1,120
And1: 1,991
Joined: Nov 13, 2012
Location: Munich, Germany
   

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#352 » by Ascrilas » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:06 pm

Raw plus-minus is misleading or even useless. It has become an argument to silence all critics ("but his plus-minus!") - and while we can acknowledge that Jayson does a lot of things right, especially on defense, we also have to criticize him.

It's his third season, and his offense has not progressed as much as we hoped. Actually, it has barely progressed at all. He is at .493 TS% right now, this is close to 7% below league average, yet we say "I like his confidence", "Good that he is still being aggressive" - if an opponent did that, we would label him a chucker. And I know that this is not a totally fair label as Tatum plays within the flow of the offense, but at the same time, he is a detriment on this side of the game right now, I don't care what raw plus-minus says.

It is right that much of his numbers will normalize with larger sample size - but they are also a reflection of glaring flaws in his game, flaws which will persist if he doesn't improve. Apart from one miraculous playoff run, Tatum has not shown he can be an efficient volume scorer. He has barely any playmaking instincts, he doesn't know how to utilize angles around the rim, his drives are unsophisticated and predictable.

And the worst thing which should be mentioned more: His Free Throw Rate is at a career low (.198). If he wants to become a dependable scorer, this is something he has to learn, there is no way around it, 3 or 4 free throws a game are not sufficient, and he has not made any progress in this regard since he entered the league despite vows to improve in this area.

I know he is somewhat of a holy cow for some and don't get me wrong, he is still obviously a net-positive player, but we should stop citing **** like unadjusted +/- to prove that he is somehow playing at an all-star level right now. He is not. Tatum can still become great, sometimes you only need that last 5% to explode, and at the age of 21, I am fine with betting on his development for the next years. But as of now, he is the fifth best player on our team. Kemba, Smart, Jaylen and Hayward are better.
User avatar
Edug27
RealGM
Posts: 10,540
And1: 6,903
Joined: Jun 24, 2009
   

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#353 » by Edug27 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:40 pm

BRUNiNHO91 wrote:
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.


Both could be. Jaylen isn't as skilled, but is better in the open court and a better defender as of now. His attitude is also a lot more alpha than Tatum. Middleton never averaged more than 13ppg until his 4th season when he was 23. Look at him now. Jimmy played 38mpg in his 3rd NBA season at age 24 and averaged 13ppg. Hayward 14ppg in year 3 as a 22 year old. The most notable one, Kawhi 13ppg in his 3rd year at age 22. Most of those guys took great jumps in year 4..Paul George took a great one in year 3. Tatum at age 20 was already more productive than all these all stars at a more advanced age. Jaylen is pretty much right there with all of them. Obviously each player has his learning curve and reasons to why he did or did not play more, shoot more or whatever..but players take a while to develop. Victor Oladipo regressed for two straight years and looked like a nobody until he blew up in year 5 as a 25 year old. Just imagine where Tatum and Brown could be at 25.


So far, they both seem comfortable out there doing what they want. They’re gonna get their minutes and shots, and don’t have to be concerned with Brad pulling them over one mistake... or the vets getting on them for taking a bad shot. Both have the freedom to grow and learn and expand their games. And like KD always mentions... that’s huge for young players.
User avatar
The Comedian
Forum Mod - Celtics
Forum Mod - Celtics
Posts: 5,279
And1: 10,937
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#354 » by The Comedian » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Like I said in the VC thread, Tatum is shooting nearly 20% below his career percentage at the rim. That is so obviously flukey, and likely in his head a bit. Once that normalizes, I'm willing to bet his TS will be in the high 50s.
Red2
RealGM
Posts: 11,360
And1: 2,141
Joined: Aug 04, 2003

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#355 » by Red2 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:54 pm

They both need to work in their handles and also on finishing at the rim . They miss way too many bunnies and close shots
"Now, there's a steal by Bird..!"
Gomes3PC
Head Coach
Posts: 6,867
And1: 2,537
Joined: Feb 10, 2006

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#356 » by Gomes3PC » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:15 pm

Jaylen has come along incredibly this year. If he keeps it up all year his contract is a steal. Whoever he worked with on his handle this off-season needs to live in St Louis with Jayson this coming summer.
rd26
Ballboy
Posts: 37
And1: 83
Joined: Nov 20, 2017
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#357 » by rd26 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:50 pm

Brown finally looks like an athletic basketball player, not a great athlete trying to play basketball.
brackdan70
RealGM
Posts: 11,850
And1: 6,934
Joined: Jul 15, 2013
Location: Ogden, UT
     

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#358 » by brackdan70 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:34 pm

Both averaging 20/7/2.5. Not too shabby.
Danny Ainge on Jayson Tatum and rational for not making him available in a trade for Anthony Davis
“And how can this be....for he is the Kwisatz Haderach”
GuyClinch
RealGM
Posts: 13,251
And1: 1,378
Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#359 » by GuyClinch » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:35 pm

The Comedian wrote:Like I said in the VC thread, Tatum is shooting nearly 20% below his career percentage at the rim. That is so obviously flukey, and likely in his head a bit. Once that normalizes, I'm willing to bet his TS will be in the high 50s.


We can hope but he was down last year in TS% from his rookie year. So if he falls again - that should set off alarms. He is starting to look Carmelo/Walkeresque - a "volume' shooter so to speak..

That would be okay - early Pierce was a volume shooter (on an offensively poor team) but the way he does it really hurts. Tatum takes tough shots at the wrong times. On the plus side he is a good shooter - when set up a bit - he can score quite well. Its when he tries to do all the creation work himself it fails often badly..
GuyClinch
RealGM
Posts: 13,251
And1: 1,378
Joined: Jul 19, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#360 » by GuyClinch » Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:37 pm

rd26 wrote:Brown finally looks like an athletic basketball player, not a great athlete trying to play basketball.


Perhaps - but to my eyes anyway he looks significantly stronger without being at all slower. So I think he is looking more athletic in a way. I do think his ball handling and finishing has made some solid improvements though. He is also an unselfish player but without great passing vision.. That's probably not going to change..

Return to Boston Celtics