Tatum and Brown, as 1-2 Options

[sam_I_am]

I thought Brown was a better cutter when younger, and then he stopped doing it. Similarly Avery Bradley. Both should have continued.

that's typical tho. backdoor cutting is an easy thing to stop defensively, if teams are aware of it. that's why it's so frustrating for coaches when teams give it up. with AB, at first literally nobody was paying any attention to him on offense, so it was working. similar to brown. then they got good, and teams started keeping track of where they are on the floor.

at this point tatum and brown are about neck and neck. when one gas a good game the other will be more complementary, but they've had about equal turns at being option 1a to kemba. they continue to work well together and play off of each other. it's really nice to see, actually.

my totally radical thinking is that we keep 'em both

As a fan of both players and Tatum takes on a lot more tough possessions than Brown does and he should he is a better ball handler at least relative to his position, often lining up as a PF where Brown is frequently a SG or SF right now. Even with both Kemba and Hayward out the tough shots seem to have fallen more to Smart than Brown who continues to take his shots in the flow of the offense. I think this is a good thing. Guys are going to have their roles on this team when it is full power. I think Brown is going to be a catch and shoot slash to the rim guy off of the action that Hayward and Walker create. I think Tatum will iso in the halfcourt. I think the real benefit of Smart getting this time right now is getting comfortable at running the point and being a primary offensive option which should allow him to help carry a reserve unit at times giving that unit a standout defender.

Brown has been outstanding in his role as third option with Hayward out. Tatum is struggling in his role as superstar. Tatum has been asked to play with 4 bench players as the #1 option and team has for the most part thrived despite Tatum’s struggles. Brown as well as he has played should not be asked to carry a group of role players regularly. I think that is the difference. Tatum is just a more talented player on another level (to quote Smart) but he is not playing as well right now in his role.

[TheMartian]

I don't think either player has shown YET that they could be effective and efficient as primary playmakers/shot creators for the team. It's part of our offensive struggles since Hayward went down. Tatum reverts to his iso back-to-the-basket Kobe jumpers. Brown is more of a catch-and-go guy. I don't think Stevens is comfortable yet putting the ball in their hands for most of the game. That's why Smart and Wanamaker are tasked to playmake more for the team. So far, the numbers reflect they're doing better as off-ball options. I do wish both learn how to cut to the basket more especially when someone else drives baseline or a guy like Kanter posts up.

I thought Brown was a better cutter when younger, and then he stopped doing it. Similarly Avery Bradley. Both should have continued.

Not putting it all on them. 'Cos I don't really know what the coaches instruct them to do. It just feels like they could find effective ways to score even playing off the ball. It's encouraging that both of them have done well in transition. Tatum especially has learned when to leak out. Brown has improved his handles and decision making on the break.

In the half-court, Brown has made quicker decisions as soon as he catches the ball. Tatum is still a bit indecisive and calculating, making it easier for the defense to set and predict what he would do.

Thank you! I can't quite put my finger on what is wrong with Tatum's offense up until now, and you summed it up perfectly. His indecisiveness is what is limiting him. Allows the defense to settle against him.

[zoyathedestroya]

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[thomas1897]

This season began as a season to rejuvenate the Celtics and to rebuild from last year. Tatum has become a very good offensive player a shooter not a scorer. (A shooter requires a lot of shots taken but a scorer requires a minimum amount of shots taken). Also, his passing skills and decision making can be a quizzical problem. Determining how to make the right decision can be a paradox. Jason Tatum needs to understand how to correct this and how to improve his skills and to integrate those skills into the team offense. This is an area where many good players could become great players if they comprehend how to integrate their skills into the team offense more efficiently. Rebounding better is another area Tatum should improve.He should make his presence known on the boards more than his absence. This has cause Daniel Theis to be the lone ranger in the rebounding department. Rebounding requires a relentless effort. Brad Stevens should help in this area and is Jason Tatum willing to learn how to improve his rebounding will be important for his development as a complete player.

[GuyClinch]

Both of these guys have been great at times. Tatum issue is his penchant for hero ball combined with mediocre shot selection..

Brown issue is that he plays inexplicably timid at times. Its like he forgets oh yeah I am an athletic god. I don't know if he is thinking about poetry or whatever.. It's like dude you are 6'6" built like an Adonis and can jump out of the gym. And you take 8 shots..WTF. But Harden's brain in Brown's body and he would be MVP next 6 years in a row..

So on balance its looking up. On the downside these guys have both overall been just above average starters - and not all-star level players. But perhaps in a few years they can get to that level.. This team is going to have to rely on the talents of Kemba and Hayward if they want to make a run this year..

[Jaqua92]

Both of these guys have been great at times. Tatum issue is his penchant for hero ball combined with mediocre shot selection..

Brown issue is that he plays inexplicably timid at times. Its like he forgets oh yeah I am an athletic god. I don't know if he is thinking about poetry or whatever.. It's like dude you are 6'6" built like an Adonis and can jump out of the gym. And you take 8 shots..WTF. But Harden's brain in Brown's body and he would be MVP next 6 years in a row..

So on balance its looking up. On the downside these guys have both overall been just above average starters - and not all-star level players. But perhaps in a few years they can get to that level.. This team is going to have to rely on the talents of Kemba and Hayward if they want to make a run this year..

Brown with the mindset of Harden is an MVP?

I mean... What the hell?

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[Homerclease]

Both of these guys have been great at times. Tatum issue is his penchant for hero ball combined with mediocre shot selection..

Brown issue is that he plays inexplicably timid at times. Its like he forgets oh yeah I am an athletic god. I don't know if he is thinking about poetry or whatever.. It's like dude you are 6'6" built like an Adonis and can jump out of the gym. And you take 8 shots..WTF. But Harden's brain in Brown's body and he would be MVP next 6 years in a row..

So on balance its looking up. On the downside these guys have both overall been just above average starters - and not all-star level players. But perhaps in a few years they can get to that level.. This team is going to have to rely on the talents of Kemba and Hayward if they want to make a run this year..

Brown with the mindset of Harden is an MVP?

I mean... What the hell?

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

What don’t you understand?

[AKFO]

Both of these guys have been great at times. Tatum issue is his penchant for hero ball combined with mediocre shot selection..

Brown issue is that he plays inexplicably timid at times. Its like he forgets oh yeah I am an athletic god. I don't know if he is thinking about poetry or whatever.. It's like dude you are 6'6" built like an Adonis and can jump out of the gym. And you take 8 shots..WTF. But Harden's brain in Brown's body and he would be MVP next 6 years in a row..

So on balance its looking up. On the downside these guys have both overall been just above average starters - and not all-star level players. But perhaps in a few years they can get to that level.. This team is going to have to rely on the talents of Kemba and Hayward if they want to make a run this year..

JB has always been scolded by teammates and/or benched for stretches for not making the right basketball play. You can see he has taken it upon himself to be the one who is doing this constantly (like making a swing pass without looking at the basket) even when others aren't. It's a tough balance, and he still has a lot to overcome mentally, as he has opened up about. But he has shown to be incredibly mature and resilient. His game should continue to progress steadily.

[celticfan42487]

Neither are creators. That is my fundamental concern for both. They are both good to great in terms of potential 1v1 scorers, defenders and Tatum has plus-plus potential as a shooter long term (if not already).

However, neither are natural playmakers for others. That is not an inherent guarantee they won't be stars, it just makes it a lot harder. Kawhi has shown you can be that, and to a lesser extent guys like Durant and Klay, but most top-25 players are good to elite in this respect.

Also, neither are good at drawing fouls. I'd say there is more promise as both continue to mature/get stronger, but if you don't draw tons of fouls or tons of scoring opportunities for teammates, it's unlikely you become an All-NBA type.

I think this about sums it up.

And if you're not a playmaker, you better be a top notch dribbler/slasher. It's easy to see how someone could develop into a playmaker for others if they are great at those skills.

Brown and Tatum are neither of those guys, and that typically is what separates a #1 and #2 best player on a championship team from a "helper" #3 and #4 all-star level player on a championship team (but like a Kris Mildeton level helper)

Tatum and Brown have both improved in this area, but in an easy to see manner from their awful driving skills where Tatum last year was regularly stripped driving to the basket and Brown frankly would just lose control of the ball.

Tatum's isn't young anymore but is in his third year so who knows, maybe his body is transformed into a much beefier version of his current form and that opens up things for him. Defensively he's already there as a plus defender so the realistic potential for him is still something you could see happen.

Brown's breakout is happening right now and it's the tier of a now decent driver to the basket when the lane is open, as opposed to the pathetic one he was in his first few years in the league where he was an offensive foul, dribble the ball off your foot waiting to happen kind of driver. His lack of control and vision would also see him get blocked on dunk attempts far too often before his current breakout season. It's extremely rare for someone to jump two levels like this after their 4th season. Brown is probably destined as a good 3 and D piece on a championship contender.

[celticfan42487]

I thought Brown was a better cutter when younger, and then he stopped doing it. Similarly Avery Bradley. Both should have continued.

Not putting it all on them. 'Cos I don't really know what the coaches instruct them to do. It just feels like they could find effective ways to score even playing off the ball. It's encouraging that both of them have done well in transition. Tatum especially has learned when to leak out. Brown has improved his handles and decision making on the break.

In the half-court, Brown has made quicker decisions as soon as he catches the ball. Tatum is still a bit indecisive and calculating, making it easier for the defense to set and predict what he would do.

Thank you! I can't quite put my finger on what is wrong with Tatum's offense up until now, and you summed it up perfectly. His indecisiveness is what is limiting him. Allows the defense to settle against him.

Well to be honest, a lot of is because Tatum still has a lot of holes offensively.

Everytime he settles for a mid range shot it's always a bad one that's off the dribble if not a fade away added. And he had the lowest conversion rate from the midrange of ANY NBA player last year. So he's an easy player for the defense to scheme around and partly it's because he likes to play like bad Carmelo Anthony at his core.

If Tatum had a successful mid range game, or a dominate ability to drive or an ability to draw fouls like Harden then his mentality would change because he'd have a deadly offensive game. As of now he's just an elite 3 point shooting player that has the versatility to do the other stuff but not at an amazing rate.

Typically that is someone who would thrive kind of in the position say Tobias Harris is in with the 76ers. Put him next to someone who is an MVP player to create opportunities for Tatum and he will hit the open shot or convert the open opportunity at an elite level.

There's still hope that Tatum develops a goto dominate move that will unlock the entire game for him on offense and catapult him into potential stardom. He's already having a breakout season on defense so it won't take much more... just one goto unstoppable move that forces defenses to adjust to him and puts them in a compromised position (either by being doubled, or having to slack off the 3 line to protect the paint from his drives) every time he touches the ball.

[zoyathedestroya]

2nd of many 25+ point games for these two... Both wins so far. This performance is as close to Paul George as Tatum has gotten. Forget Kobe or Truth, Tatum has a lot of PG in his game (both ends).

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Antoine Walker and Paul Pierce had 43 such games. The Celtics were 25-18 in those games.

[zoyathedestroya]

Currently, there are only two guys in the league who are averaging 19+ ppg, 7+ rpg, 1.2+ spg, and shooting 36+% from 3. I will give you three guesses who that pair is.

[Wes-J]

Watch on YouTube

Tremendous interview.

Very thoughtful JB. Barnes dope af conducting it.

Thx zoya

[ddb]

I love these guys. We are so spoiled as Boston sports fans that we tend to nitpick. As it relates to JB & JT we really need to relax. These young fellas are about as good as it gets as a young wing-duo. JB is locked up contract wise. JT will be locked up summer 2020. They're only going to get better and better. Just think about JT for a moment. He's 21. Turns 22 in March. He has broad shoulders. He can still add another 10-15 lbs of muscle. He's still maturing into his body. He's a smooth player..a Clutch player. His trajectory reminds me a little of Paul George during his early days in Indy. I'm not comparing the players....just comparing their development. Everyone with half a brain knew PG13 was going to be a star. Same thing can be said about JT. He's already an All-Star. through 19 games he has a strong All-Star case.
JB is a guy that looks much improved. he was dealt a tough hand last season. now he's back to being on the path to stardom that he was on prior to being pushed to the bench. if you put JB on Memphis he's averaging 23ppg. here he will probably end up around 17.5-18.5. but he's the 3rd or 4th option most nights. He's excellent. Both JB and JT defend too. really likable kids. I'm completely happy with these kids being here for years to come. I think they win titles together if Ainge builds around those 2, Kemba and hopefully Hayward right.

[jmr07019]

Too early to say whether or not Brown and Tatum will end up top 10 players. They are among the best young players in the game that much is clear. Luka, Siakim and Giannis are top 10 already but besides those 3 every other player 25 and under have hole(s) in their game. Simmons and Fox can’t shoot. Embiid isn’t an elite offensive creator. Trae Young, Jamaal Murray will never defend like Brown and Tatum. Towns generally doesn’t play D. Mitchell hasn’t scored efficiently. Jokic has conditioning issues and can be attacked in PnR. And on and on.

It’s up to the individual to continue to improve. I’m optimistic because Tatum is younger than most of those guys and Brown seems to have a great attitude and work ethic but I’m always optimistic about young Celtics players.

Devin Booker and Brandon Ingram look like they are separating themselves a bit though.

[Marvel]

I do like the PG comparison to Tatum. Their averages in their 3rd season is identical with Tatum being a year younger. PG also made it into the all star game that season. If Tatum can make it this season that would be something else. I also think Tatum's mid range game will come along which will really start to open up the game for him even more and he's developing a good post game which means he would be a threat anywhere on the floor. Once his passing skills get better and he can read defenses better he will become a star. There's a lot to like about the 2 Jay's, Danny needs to hold onto them both. I believe they will become one of the best wing duos in the league and they will both be in the top 10-15 players list soon enough. I also love the fact they are both good defenders and can hold it down on that end.

[Dannyboy36]

I love these guys. We are so spoiled as Boston sports fans that we tend to nitpick. As it relates to JB & JT we really need to relax. These young fellas are about as good as it gets as a young wing-duo. JB is locked up contract wise. JT will be locked up summer 2020. They're only going to get better and better. Just think about JT for a moment. He's 21. Turns 22 in March. He has broad shoulders. He can still add another 10-15 lbs of muscle. He's still maturing into his body. He's a smooth player..a Clutch player. His trajectory reminds me a little of Paul George during his early days in Indy. I'm not comparing the players....just comparing their development. Everyone with half a brain knew PG13 was going to be a star. Same thing can be said about JT. He's already an All-Star. through 19 games he has a strong All-Star case.
JB is a guy that looks much improved. he was dealt a tough hand last season. now he's back to being on the path to stardom that he was on prior to being pushed to the bench. if you put JB on Memphis he's averaging 23ppg. here he will probably end up around 17.5-18.5. but he's the 3rd or 4th option most nights. He's excellent. Both JB and JT defend too. really likable kids. I'm completely happy with these kids being here for years to come. I think they win titles together if Ainge builds around those 2, Kemba and hopefully Hayward right.

As of right now, if Tatum has an argument for an all star team, isn’t Jaylen currently the better player? I don’t see where Tatum is better THIS year.

[Theocy]

I love these guys. We are so spoiled as Boston sports fans that we tend to nitpick. As it relates to JB & JT we really need to relax. These young fellas are about as good as it gets as a young wing-duo. JB is locked up contract wise. JT will be locked up summer 2020. They're only going to get better and better. Just think about JT for a moment. He's 21. Turns 22 in March. He has broad shoulders. He can still add another 10-15 lbs of muscle. He's still maturing into his body. He's a smooth player..a Clutch player. His trajectory reminds me a little of Paul George during his early days in Indy. I'm not comparing the players....just comparing their development. Everyone with half a brain knew PG13 was going to be a star. Same thing can be said about JT. He's already an All-Star. through 19 games he has a strong All-Star case.
JB is a guy that looks much improved. he was dealt a tough hand last season. now he's back to being on the path to stardom that he was on prior to being pushed to the bench. if you put JB on Memphis he's averaging 23ppg. here he will probably end up around 17.5-18.5. but he's the 3rd or 4th option most nights. He's excellent. Both JB and JT defend too. really likable kids. I'm completely happy with these kids being here for years to come. I think they win titles together if Ainge builds around those 2, Kemba and hopefully Hayward right.

As of right now, if Tatum has an argument for an all star team, isn’t Jaylen currently the better player? I don’t see where Tatum is better THIS year.

He will put up better numbers. Probably 22ppg. Jaylen will end up with something closer to 18 points probably. Also Tatum is more hyped. Had a good first year, plays a bit like a star and he was pick 3 in a weird and talented draft.

Jaylen is probably the better player to date though. Just less hyped.

[ddb]

I love these guys. We are so spoiled as Boston sports fans that we tend to nitpick. As it relates to JB & JT we really need to relax. These young fellas are about as good as it gets as a young wing-duo. JB is locked up contract wise. JT will be locked up summer 2020. They're only going to get better and better. Just think about JT for a moment. He's 21. Turns 22 in March. He has broad shoulders. He can still add another 10-15 lbs of muscle. He's still maturing into his body. He's a smooth player..a Clutch player. His trajectory reminds me a little of Paul George during his early days in Indy. I'm not comparing the players....just comparing their development. Everyone with half a brain knew PG13 was going to be a star. Same thing can be said about JT. He's already an All-Star. through 19 games he has a strong All-Star case.
JB is a guy that looks much improved. he was dealt a tough hand last season. now he's back to being on the path to stardom that he was on prior to being pushed to the bench. if you put JB on Memphis he's averaging 23ppg. here he will probably end up around 17.5-18.5. but he's the 3rd or 4th option most nights. He's excellent. Both JB and JT defend too. really likable kids. I'm completely happy with these kids being here for years to come. I think they win titles together if Ainge builds around those 2, Kemba and hopefully Hayward right.

As of right now, if Tatum has an argument for an all star team, isn’t Jaylen currently the better player? I don’t see where Tatum is better THIS year.

He will put up better numbers. Probably 22ppg. Jaylen will end up with something closer to 18 points probably. Also Tatum is more hyped. Had a good first year, plays a bit like a star and he was pick 3 in a weird and talented draft.

Jaylen is probably the better player to date though. Just less hyped.

I wouldn't say one has better than the other. To me they are different players with different roles on this team. They are both playing well. It's only going to get better

[Feed Your Head]

I've made it clear that I was wrong on Jaylen, i completely undersold him. So hopefully the Jaylen fans don't get offended by this, but his one edge on Tatum has been his efficiency, and a big part of that is defenses scheme to stop Kemba/Tatum, while Jaylen has been feasting on mismatches.

It's not a knock, because he's playing his role to perfection for the most part. He's been the better of the two when it comes to playing being decisive and staying within his limits. But i think Tatum has been better all around, and now is starting to figure out defenses. Within a few weeks I have a feeling it will show up in the efficiency stats between them as well. Tatum is already 23rd in the league in PIPM even with his rough start finishing the ball.

Regardless of who we think has played better, we can all agree that having both of them is pretty damn sweet.