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Tatum and Brown

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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#421 » by The Comedian » Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:03 pm

Bleeding Green wrote:
The Comedian wrote:Tatum is now 11th in the league in PIPM. The names above him

Giannis
Luka
Harden
Kawhi
Lebron
AD
Towns
Butler
Embiid
Brook Lopez, who sticks out, but has been really good.

Third is RAPM, too. Siakam and Harden above him.

Of course Ben McLemore is fifth and Donte Divencenzo is 13th, so there is a lot of noise in the data still.


Up to 9th in PIPM after last night as well, and yeah there is a ton of noise for sure. When looking at them I just take into account which guys are playing bigger minutes and are high usage/volume.

I prefer PIPM/RAPM/RPM to basketball references advanced stats, but none of them are close to perfect.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#422 » by zoyathedestroya » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:54 pm

Read on Twitter

I was one of his many critics up until the playoffs two seasons ago. And he still keeps improving. At a faster rate than most guys taken near the top of the draft. Of course granted, he really started out raw. His dedication to mastering his craft should not be questioned at this point.

Now, you'll probably only hear me complaining about his defensive awareness and ability to fight through screens/chase shooters (or lack thereof). Even his passing/vision has improved a bit from last season.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#423 » by zoyathedestroya » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:59 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#424 » by djFan71 » Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:08 am

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Spoiler:
Read on Twitter

I was one of his many critics up until the playoffs two seasons ago. And he still keeps improving. At a faster rate than most guys taken near the top of the draft. Of course granted, he really started out raw. His dedication to mastering his craft should not be questioned at this point.

Now, you'll probably only hear me complaining about his defensive awareness and ability to fight through screens/chase shooters (or lack thereof). Even his passing/vision has improved a bit from last season.

Yep, those are the big things left. He's rebounding better this year as well (at least I feel he is without checking stats...).
On D he's so big and versatile that he's an asset regardless, but the screen dying / handing off his guy too easily and some general awareness are what's keeping him from being a monster on that end. He can definitely lock in for stretches, but isn't consistent.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#425 » by Bar Fight » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:42 am

If we could fuse these guys into one player we'd probably have the best scorer in the league with elite defense
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#426 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:23 pm

Tatum debuts at 4th in ESPN's RPM rankings. Brown and Hayward are 25th and 28th, respectively. Jayson is also 2nd in DRPM.

Image

Theis - 46 (4th in DRPM)
Kemba - 66 (13th in ORPM)
Kanter - 104

Ojeleye is 42nd in DRPM! Hayward is 20th in ORPM. Kanter being 17th among centers in DRPM instead of his usual bottom of the list placing is a minor miracle.


DISCLAIMER: SMALL SAMPLE CAVEAT APPLIES.
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Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#427 » by rywith22 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:12 am

I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#428 » by 31to6 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:17 am

Relax he’s only 9
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#429 » by Marvel » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:46 am

31to6 wrote:Relax he’s only 9

months.
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#430 » by Floody100 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:51 am

rywith22 wrote:I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.



Trade for Beal before he gets exposed :lol:
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#431 » by zoyathedestroya » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:50 pm

Me to myself...

Image

They can't possibly bring it each and every game. Gonna hold off on trading Tatum for Nwaba and Brown for Whiteside for now.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#432 » by Roddy » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:06 pm

Jaylen in december : 21.0pts, 6.0rbs, 2,7 ast, 54/40/75, 64.4 TS%
Tatum in december : 20.8pts, 6,3rbs, 4,0 ast, 39/37/87, 53.6 TS%

Jaylen shooting : 48/89 FG, 15/37 3Pts
Tatum shooting : 42/106 FG, 20/53 3Pts

I like them both, but don't tell me that Tatum is going to be a superstar and that Jaylen is overpaid...
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#433 » by 5InOfLouisville » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:08 pm

rywith22 wrote:I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.


Im optimistic about both brown and tatum but am not COMPLETELY sold on either. Nothing is for sure until it actually happens. Both have holes in their games, and both clearly need to work to improve

But they also both seem like hard workers with good physical gifts who display stretches of brilliance.

Consistency is the next step. Hopefully they get there.

You can also see both of them continuing to try and refine new facets of their games while working on Weaknesses and continuing to find new strengths

This learning process is unfolding on the court. Neither of these lottery picks has ever had the luxury of free reign on the court with low expectations and guaranteed touches.

This is the first year theyve really experienced being part time focal points with actual free reign on the court.

Do i think theyll become superstars? Honestly, no. Most players dont.

But do they gave the chance? Hell, theres always a chance? Top 25? Optimistic, but imo, very possible.

They work hard. They're figuring it out and getting better. I may not expect the moon, but im also very hesitant to cap their potential.

Lets see where they go. They have work to do, but i still see a lot of reason for optimism too. Who knows?
KGboss wrote:Brown doesnt need you to clean his jock strap for him


Captain_Caveman wrote:You are perfectly welcome to never read or respond to my posts ever again. I don't find you particularly knowledgeable or insightful from anything I have read to date.


:cry:
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#434 » by Soulcatcher33 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:21 pm

rywith22 wrote:I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.


Brad needs to reign Tatum in. He's taking the most shots on this team while being, by far, the least efficient of the big four. I don't get why he has the green light to just chuck away as he pleases. He's out there chucking away like he's on a bad team and is the only offensive option out there. He also seems to make everything harder than it has to be. He could learn a lot from Hayward if he was willing...they way he plays within the offense and is always in control. I'd like to see Tatum's shot attempts get down to 15-16 and Hayward's get up to 15-16. It's pretty clear to me that Kemba and Hayward are the best offensive players on the team and are the two that should be featured the most. I know there are some people that want to see the two Jay's featured the most since they are the future, but that's obviously not the plan right now. You don't sign Kemba Walker if that was the plan.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#435 » by ballup » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:35 pm

Both these guys added pump fakes and pivots to diversify their drives, but I do think both need an extra move to shake guys like Thybulle enough to get up a decent shot. Kemba was able to force Thybulle to foul him with that quick pull up after the screen.
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#436 » by 31to6 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:42 pm

5InOfLouisville wrote:This learning process is unfolding on the court. Neither of these lottery picks has ever had the luxury of free reign on the court with low expectations and guaranteed touches.

This is the first year theyve really experienced being part time focal points with actual free reign on the court.


Except for the playoffs two years ago when they had the highest usage of their careers (before now) and got to game 7 of the ECF! As you said they're better, now, than they were then, and I look forward to seeing where they're at in 2 years when Jaylen's 25 and JT's 19.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#437 » by Wes-J » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:00 pm

I just don't get the flaming, killing Tatum and Brown during these game threads.

SMH
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#438 » by cloverleaf » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:34 pm

rywith22 wrote:I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.


The dude's not even going to turn 22 until March. Right now he is taking the major step of consistently shooting like a #1-ish option, which is a big step up for him. He also is doing this without loafing on D, which many #1-ish options do. So it is not surprising everything hasn't all totally fallen into place yet. You can see his OPM is pretty pedestrian right now. Once he gets that where we expect he should have it, he'll be a top-5 player, not a top-10 player.

And actually there was a lot of complaining last year that he was turning down shots he should have been taking.

Patience!
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Re: Is Tatum Antoine Walker 2.0? 

Post#439 » by Soulcatcher33 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:38 pm

cloverleaf wrote:
rywith22 wrote:I’m easily one of the biggest fans of Tatum there is but the more I sit and watch him this year, he plays just like your average chucker. Sure, he hit that big 3 late in the game but prior to that I watched him miss 3-4 straight easy runner type shots 5-8 feet from the basket and constantly force a shot at some point in the possession. He reminds me a lot of Antoine Walker. Never met a shot he didn’t like and frankly, I’m worried.

Someone please talk me off the ledge.


The dude's not even going to turn 22 until March. Right now he is taking the major step of consistently shooting like a #1-ish option, which is a big step up for him. He also is doing this without loafing on D, which many #1-ish options do. So it is not surprising everything hasn't all totally fallen into place yet. You can see his OPM is pretty pedestrian right now. Once he gets that where we expect he should have it, he'll be a top-5 player, not a top-10 player.

And actually there was a lot of complaining last year that he was turning down shots he should have been taking.

Patience!


That's kind of the point, though...he shouldn't be shooting as much as he as a number one option as he's clearly isn't good enough to when this is a team with Kemba Walker and Gordon Hayward.
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Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#440 » by 24istheLAW » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:17 pm

Yeah, if Tatum wasn't the #2 defender in THE ENTIRE NBA by RPM so far this season, I'd be worried about him learning on the job. But he is.

I will say I don't like the runner at all. He's too big to be taking that shot. Get to the damn FT line.

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