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Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:18 pm
by hondobird
You guys know the Celtics and basketball better than I do so please share with my why people seem to have concluded that Tatum and Brown will never grow into the star/top 25 type player. They are both very talented and very young still.
Would appreciate any feedback on this.

Thanks.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:44 pm
by celtics543
Because everyone loves to make snap judgements on young guys. A year ago Tatum was a future superstar and Brown was too much to trade for Kawhi. If they open next season playing well then they'll be future stars again.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 8:49 pm
by hondobird
thanks

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:01 pm
by greenroom31
hondobird wrote:You guys know the Celtics and basketball better than I do so please share with my why people seem to have concluded that Tatum and Brown will never grow into the star/top 25 type player. They are both very talented and very young still.
Would appreciate any feedback on this.


Neither guy had the breakout type of season that was hoped for. Of course there are lots of great reasons for that, but if you view reasons as excuses, then the simple answer is they just aren't that good.

Brown started off the year poorly and it took him a couple of months to find a groove in his role off the bench. Tatum took too many long 2s, his handle didn't improve as much as hoped, and had trouble finding the balance between deferring and taking over.

Of course the mitigating factors include that GorDON was bequeathed 25-30 mpg and Brad took a page from the little league coaching playbook to try to keep everyone happy.

Spoiler:
it didn't work

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:09 pm
by Kyrie For Three
Tatum has potential to be a really strong all star caliber player IMO. Brown I think has a lot more weaknesses then most C's fans want to admit.

First thing someone has to do this offseason is shake the Kobe out of Tatum. It doesn't feel right either with Kobe/Tatum.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 9:30 pm
by Duke4life831
I think both guys each have their own glaring flaw.

Tatum: Shot selection. I truly believe shot selection is the only thing holding him back from being a borderline all star in the East. 40% 3pt shooter, 85% at the line and he finished at a very high rate of 68% at the basket last year. The problem is he is far to willing to just settle for a contested pull up mid range jumper. I think he can be deadly from the mid range, but it should never be his 1st or 2nd option. The mid range shot should be a changeup, not his go to move. He also needs to facilitate.

Brown: His handle is horrible. He is never going to be a consistent scoring threat until he improves his handle. Its way to slow and high. If he could improve his handle, he would be a terror slashing the basket. He is also a bad FT shooter and because of that, Im not sure how consistent he will be over his career from 3.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Mon Jun 3, 2019 11:02 pm
by truth18
Wouldn't mind Tatum getting bigger honestly. Dude's frame still seems slight at times banging against other SFs.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:11 am
by captain green
Both are top 10 players under 25 so there isn't much to aegue about. To me this season proved they can both be great. The early minutes of hayward and late game shift of brown proved the have adapting skills. Keeping brown and tatum with smart will be a great trio to build around.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:42 am
by Fencer reregistered
Also, great wing players tend to be all-World on defense early in their careers, before hitting their offensive peaks. These guys are good, but they don't look like lockdown defenders.

Exception: Paul Pierce, who locked people down only in crunch time, and probably peaked in that around the same time he peaked offensively.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:42 am
by radcot
Do they have weaknesses? Sure. Have they shown flashes of having very high ceilings? Also sure. Will they refine their games and develop the consistency necessary to be All-Star caliber players? Tatum is 21. Brown is 22. Anyone who claims to know the answer to that last question is imho full of ****.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 12:53 am
by hondobird
happy to see these responses

I am a believer in keeping these two

Think they can both be perennial all stars

Thanks for all the comments

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:24 am
by [EverGreen]
I think you need to treat Tatum and Brown differently.

Tatum, had a down year after an amazing rookie campaign. This often happens and I think a lot of the problem was being to comfortable shooting from mid-range. With an off-season to review, I'm confident he'll continue to his original path to being in the conversation for best small forward type in the league.

Brown on the other hand seems like a jack of all trades, master of none. At different points this season, he looked a great slasher, a great defender, a great shooter but he's streaky. He needs more minutes, but with Hayward on board I don't see that happening.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 1:45 am
by Bleeding Green
A lot of it centers around their very poor passing ability. You very seldom see players who have such poor court vision and passing ability make it into any kind of top-25 list unless they are unbelievable talents otherwise. The only guys who you can put in the top-25 who don't pass/create for others are guys like Rudy Gobert. Tatum improved here this season to some extent, but I don't ever see him being an above-average passer, and when you see Brown make even a routine pass it is worthy of note, which isn't a great sign.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:05 am
by sully00
Bleeding Green wrote:A lot of it centers around their very poor passing ability. You very seldom see players who have such poor court vision and passing ability make it into any kind of top-25 list unless they are unbelievable talents otherwise. The only guys who you can put in the top-25 who don't pass/create for others are guys like Rudy Gobert. Tatum improved here this season to some extent, but I don't ever see him being an above-average passer, and when you see Brown make even a routine pass it is worthy of note, which isn't a great sign.


I don't agree with this. Brown doesn't turn the ball over and he doesn't dominate the ball he is a finisher nobody cared that James Worthy avg around 2 apg most of his career because his job was to finish. When he got older he became a better passer. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone were total black holes. Klay Thompson isn't a playmaker but everyone wants him on their team. If you dominate the ball and don't pass that is a problem but if you catch and shoot and attack the rim and minimize the BS other guys can create shots for others.

I think Tatum was trying to come into his own as a go to offensive option and learned a lot of what doesn't work. I don't think he is a bad passer as much as his judgement around when and where to isolate got a little weird but the whole team sort of broke down the more the ball didn't touch Al's hands.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:32 am
by LuckyLeprechaun
They can be great, but players reaching the transcendent level is just so rare. There's probably an average of one player like that every 2-3 drafts.

People are down on Brown/Tatum because they see the possibility of getting an actual transcendent player in his prime and value that higher than betting on the low odds that one or both of them will be the rare exceptions and reach that level.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:33 am
by Gomes3PC
Neither are creators. That is my fundamental concern for both. They are both good to great in terms of potential 1v1 scorers, defenders and Tatum has plus-plus potential as a shooter long term (if not already).

However, neither are natural playmakers for others. That is not an inherent guarantee they won't be stars, it just makes it a lot harder. Kawhi has shown you can be that, and to a lesser extent guys like Durant and Klay, but most top-25 players are good to elite in this respect.

Also, neither are good at drawing fouls. I'd say there is more promise as both continue to mature/get stronger, but if you don't draw tons of fouls or tons of scoring opportunities for teammates, it's unlikely you become an All-NBA type.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:36 am
by Gomes3PC
I will say this - if we "rebuild" this year, one benefit of that will be both guys will be forced to become primary initiators (or should be asked to). Paul George in part became a plus playmaker because in his 3rd year the Pacers basically put the ball in his hands and told him to learn how to run the P&R. His turnovers spiked but IMO it was really important in his development as an all-around playmaker for his teammates.

Tatum especially needs more of this. They need to force him to work on his handle and vision in the P&R.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 2:53 am
by Parasite
Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 3:37 am
by Bleeding Green
sully00 wrote:
Bleeding Green wrote:A lot of it centers around their very poor passing ability. You very seldom see players who have such poor court vision and passing ability make it into any kind of top-25 list unless they are unbelievable talents otherwise. The only guys who you can put in the top-25 who don't pass/create for others are guys like Rudy Gobert. Tatum improved here this season to some extent, but I don't ever see him being an above-average passer, and when you see Brown make even a routine pass it is worthy of note, which isn't a great sign.


I don't agree with this. Brown doesn't turn the ball over and he doesn't dominate the ball he is a finisher nobody cared that James Worthy avg around 2 apg most of his career because his job was to finish. When he got older he became a better passer. Kevin McHale and Karl Malone were total black holes. Klay Thompson isn't a playmaker but everyone wants him on their team. If you dominate the ball and don't pass that is a problem but if you catch and shoot and attack the rim and minimize the BS other guys can create shots for others.

I think Tatum was trying to come into his own as a go to offensive option and learned a lot of what doesn't work. I don't think he is a bad passer as much as his judgement around when and where to isolate got a little weird but the whole team sort of broke down the more the ball didn't touch Al's hands.

Yeah if you need to compare them to the development tracks of Hall of Fame players, it's not that great of an argument. James Worthy eventually became a good passer. McHale was a power forward from a different era. Klay Thompson is the most overrated player in the NBA to me. Put him on some team without Steph Curry. Also he's one of the best shooters in NBA history. What are these generational traits that Tatum/Brown possess that will allow them to be top-25 NBA players without the ability to create for others? Brown and Tatum have very little innate feel for the game and where they are on the court, especially offensively. This 100 pct has to change or they'll both just be what-ifs.

But they're both young, so who knows. Generally players don't follow the James Worthy path, or we'd have a few thousand James Worthys in NBA history.

Re: Tatum and Brown

Posted: Tue Jun 4, 2019 6:26 am
by BRUNiNHO91
Parasite wrote:Tatum could and quite honestly should be a future star. I don’t see it in Brown. Good player but not star material.


Both could be. Jaylen isn't as skilled, but is better in the open court and a better defender as of now. His attitude is also a lot more alpha than Tatum. Middleton never averaged more than 13ppg until his 4th season when he was 23. Look at him now. Jimmy played 38mpg in his 3rd NBA season at age 24 and averaged 13ppg. Hayward 14ppg in year 3 as a 22 year old. The most notable one, Kawhi 13ppg in his 3rd year at age 22. Most of those guys took great jumps in year 4..Paul George took a great one in year 3. Tatum at age 20 was already more productive than all these all stars at a more advanced age. Jaylen is pretty much right there with all of them. Obviously each player has his learning curve and reasons to why he did or did not play more, shoot more or whatever..but players take a while to develop. Victor Oladipo regressed for two straight years and looked like a nobody until he blew up in year 5 as a 25 year old. Just imagine where Tatum and Brown could be at 25.