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Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

Personally, I think the other Williams has more potential.

captain green wrote:Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

I take this with a grain of salt.
I don't think that Grant plays as much on the Celtics, as do other Rookies on other teams.

theman wrote:Personally, I think the other Williams has more potential.

And Grant has already played 50% more minutes. Rob looks like a 30-50 game a year guy to me, never playing more than like 10 games in a row.

Parliament10 wrote:

captain green wrote:Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

I take this with a grain of salt.
I don't think that Grant plays as much on the Celtics, as do other Rookies on other teams.

Not to mention that if you're viewing traditional metrics like high level scoring and rebounding as a measure of impact for a rookie who is at best, the 9th man on the team you automatically set yourself up to be disappointed. The Top 7 guys (Starting 5 + Smart and Kanter) whichever have been available, are going to be responsible for 95% of the scoring. They are all more experienced in the system. Same with rebounding. This is also the reason why clamoring for some draft pick to come in and set the world on fire is utterly laughable. Because as long as those guys are here, that's going to be the case. The reason we have guys like Kanter is so that we don't have to rely on rookies to be scoring options here. They can just worry about getting comfortable in the system and playing defense --which he's doing. If Grant was scoring 10 ppg or something like that, he's probably taking shots away from Jayson Tatum and Kemba Walker to do it.

Bleeding Green wrote:

theman wrote:Personally, I think the other Williams has more potential.

And Grant has already played 50% more minutes. Rob looks like a 30-50 game a year guy to me, never playing more than like 10 games in a row.

This is a growing concern for me as well. The frustrating part about the stoppage was that it came just as he got healthy. Assuming this season does resume, this stretch run and playoffs will be big for him to prove that he can contribute to a winning team. If he has an uneventful postseason, the window might close on him.

captain green wrote:Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

Yet if on/off court plus/minus is any indication, he was our third best rotation player, behind only Tatum and Hayward. And our second best defensive player after Tatum.

Plus/minus obviously is not the greatest indicator, but the guy is an improved jumper and a little bit of refinement away from being a valuable role player.

Casuals looking at box score stats will be disappointed with him. However, much like Al Horford, his impact goes much further than the box score. I think everyone would agree he needs to add more with his offensive skillset and no doubt he will. The fact that he's even playing as many mins as a rookie tells you that he is a contributor, even without the shooting numbers. I don't see any reason why he can't develop into a high level role player/6th man.

He shot 82% from the line his last year at Tennessee and is at 73% this year so the shot mechanics are there. Just needs more reps. His splits were terrible to start the year but here is a look at month by month since:

November: 19%/0%
December: 48.9%/28%
January: 44%/43%
February: 57%/40%

Grant's a good glue guy - keeps things loose in the locker room, gets along with everyone, and puts the team first. He's stronger than he looks, which helps for his lack of length. I think he's going to have a 10 year career in this league.

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Grant's a good glue guy - keeps things loose in the locker room, gets along with everyone, and puts the team first. He's stronger than he looks, which helps for his lack of length. I think he's going to have a 10 year career in this league.

Sounds about right.
He's an NBA Bench Player, at the least.

Bleeding Green wrote:

theman wrote:Personally, I think the other Williams has more potential.

And Grant has already played 50% more minutes. Rob looks like a 30-50 game a year guy to me, never playing more than like 10 games in a row.

Whenever Rob gets minutes I like what I see. I wonder if injuries are really keeping him out or if he doesn't have it between the ears or to make in this system/nba you need a 3 point shot. I'm just saying I like what I see. But I am not a great evaluator of NBA talent.

Parliament10 wrote:

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Grant's a good glue guy - keeps things loose in the locker room, gets along with everyone, and puts the team first. He's stronger than he looks, which helps for his lack of length. I think he's going to have a 10 year career in this league.

Sounds about right.
He's an NBA Bench Player, at the least.

Would a poor-man's Shane Battier be a good description? Although I think Battier was more athletic but that may be why Grant is the poor man's version.

Parliament10 wrote:

captain green wrote:Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

I take this with a grain of salt.
I don't think that Grant plays as much on the Celtics, as do other Rookies on other teams.

Well he has played in 62 games and is 20th on total minutes. And is under performed thus far to all other rookies.

captain green wrote:

Parliament10 wrote:

captain green wrote:Outside his candles and niceness there is literally 48 rookies scoring more than he does. Oh but be rebounds right? Nope 32 rookies are avg better. 36 rookies better at passing too. 60 rookies better at the 3 ball. But hey he is in top 20 of minutes played. Face it he is what he is Semi 2.0

I take this with a grain of salt.
I don't think that Grant plays as much on the Celtics, as do other Rookies on other teams.

Well he has played in 62 games and is 20th on total minutes. And is under performed thus far to all other rookies.

Is he underperforming to all other rookies though? According to box score stats sure.

Take a look at net rating and advanced stats as well. I know it wouldn't fit your narrative but might be helpful to look at in future discussions.

I'm assuming Horford didn't deserve a max because he only averaged 12 and 6 right?

theman wrote:

Parliament10 wrote:

CeltsfanSinceBirth wrote:Grant's a good glue guy - keeps things loose in the locker room, gets along with everyone, and puts the team first. He's stronger than he looks, which helps for his lack of length. I think he's going to have a 10 year career in this league.

Sounds about right.
He's an NBA Bench Player, at the least.

Would a poor-man's Shane Battier be a good description? Although I think Battier was more athletic but that may be why Grant is the poor man's version.

I think, defensively, he's a poor man's Draymond Green. Very good at rotations, pretty vocal when he's quarterbacking the defense, nimble enough to switch onto guards and not get humiliated. The Celtics are much better defensively when he's on the floor, especially when he's playing the 5.

Grant Williams is a special defender. Like "should be all-defensive team at some point" special. You don't see he's understading of the game, positioning, rotations and passing from a rookie, even if he wasn't a OAD.

Looking at pure box scores is total bull. There's a reason why Carmelo, Towns, Booker and Wiggins haven't won and won't win jack.

themoneyteam2 wrote:

captain green wrote:

Parliament10 wrote:I take this with a grain of salt.
I don't think that Grant plays as much on the Celtics, as do other Rookies on other teams.

Well he has played in 62 games and is 20th on total minutes. And is under performed thus far to all other rookies.

Is he underperforming to all other rookies though? According to box score stats sure.

Take a look at net rating and advanced stats as well. I know it wouldn't fit your narrative but might be helpful to look at in future discussions.

I'm assuming Horford didn't deserve a max because he only averaged 12 and 6 right?

Well its not narrative it's stats an horford situation was earned. However I did find a top 10 Stat for him 8th in total blocks. Also found a top 5 Stat for him he is 3rd in total personal fouls. Net ratings and such I'll look into those to but I like basic stats because it doesn't assume.

captain green wrote:

themoneyteam2 wrote:

captain green wrote:Well he has played in 62 games and is 20th on total minutes. And is under performed thus far to all other rookies.

Is he underperforming to all other rookies though? According to box score stats sure.

Take a look at net rating and advanced stats as well. I know it wouldn't fit your narrative but might be helpful to look at in future discussions.

I'm assuming Horford didn't deserve a max because he only averaged 12 and 6 right?

Well its not narrative it's stats an horford situation was earned. However I did find a top 10 Stat for him 8th in total blocks. Also found a top 5 Stat for him he is 3rd in total personal fouls. Net ratings and such I'll look into those to but I like basic stats because it doesn't assume.

I think we can all agree his box score stats need to improve, which they have been since his rough start to the year. However, I think you have it backwards saying "basic stats because it doesn't assume". It's the opposite. Big box score numbers, for a guy like Devin Booker for example, would show he's a top 10 player in the league. There's a reason he wasn't originally voted in the ASG because he's a traffic cone on defense and advanced stats and net rating show he doesn't have as positive an impact on the game as one would expect looking at his box score.

themoneyteam2 wrote:

captain green wrote:

themoneyteam2 wrote:
Is he underperforming to all other rookies though? According to box score stats sure.

Take a look at net rating and advanced stats as well. I know it wouldn't fit your narrative but might be helpful to look at in future discussions.

I'm assuming Horford didn't deserve a max because he only averaged 12 and 6 right?

Well its not narrative it's stats an horford situation was earned. However I did find a top 10 Stat for him 8th in total blocks. Also found a top 5 Stat for him he is 3rd in total personal fouls. Net ratings and such I'll look into those to but I like basic stats because it doesn't assume.

I think we can all agree his box score stats need to improve, which they have been since his rough start to the year. However, I think you have it backwards saying "basic stats because it doesn't assume". It's the opposite. Big box score numbers, for a guy like Devin Booker for example, would show he's a top 10 player in the league. There's a reason he wasn't originally voted in the ASG because he's a traffic cone on defense and advanced stats and net rating show he doesn't have as positive an impact on the game as one would expect looking at his box score.

Well by basic stats I mean the box score but I get your point I'm just saying stats say a lot but sure he know his positions to be in sorta why we play semi, however just knowing where to be isn't enough and his fouls are certainly not a good sign. And for a rookie ya I like that he can play but give me something anything I'm tired of just players knowing where to go I want players that can hit shots after the mains get doubled. Does this mean I don't like him no it means I want to see more or at least just below avg stats. Which he hasn't yet.

captain green wrote:

themoneyteam2 wrote:

captain green wrote:Well its not narrative it's stats an horford situation was earned. However I did find a top 10 Stat for him 8th in total blocks. Also found a top 5 Stat for him he is 3rd in total personal fouls. Net ratings and such I'll look into those to but I like basic stats because it doesn't assume.

I think we can all agree his box score stats need to improve, which they have been since his rough start to the year. However, I think you have it backwards saying "basic stats because it doesn't assume". It's the opposite. Big box score numbers, for a guy like Devin Booker for example, would show he's a top 10 player in the league. There's a reason he wasn't originally voted in the ASG because he's a traffic cone on defense and advanced stats and net rating show he doesn't have as positive an impact on the game as one would expect looking at his box score.

Well by basic stats I mean the box score but I get your point I'm just saying stats say a lot but sure he know his positions to be in sorta why we play semi, however just knowing where to be isn't enough and his fouls are certainly not a good sign. And for a rookie ya I like that he can play but give me something anything I'm tired of just players knowing where to go I want players that can hit shots after the mains get doubled. Does this mean I don't like him no it means I want to see more or at least just below avg stats. Which he hasn't yet.

I know that we've been a little on the opposite sides of this debate but I understand this. And your desire to see players that can hit shots complement our stars on offense makes complete sense to me. I'd like to see Grant do that. Grant did most of his business from "15 feet and in" in college. He was not so perimeter-based. Just as a reminder, this is the former SEC Player of the year. What I'm suggesting is that this is an adjustment, not only learning the NBA speed, but adjusting to more of a complementary role from a starring role, as well as learning to hit the perimeter shot.

-He has a few things going for him though. He's super smart. Could've gone to Harvard. Brad's system requires intelligence. You need to learn how to make the appropriate reads.

-Grant is a basketball junkie. I'm sure every player will claim this but Grant really is a student of the game. He breaks down tape. And he really loves to work on his game. That work ethic will serve him well.

-Shooting is maybe the easiest skill to work on and improve once you get to the NBA level. More time to work on your shot. Access to skills coaches. The NBA offseason is where players often make their biggest jumps in skills improvements after they hit the league. We've just seen this with Jaylen. I look for Grant to get with an NBA training program after this season, work make his shot mechanics which look a little wonky but are fine for now. His body will continue to transform as well.

It may or may not start to happen this season but I do believe that he will get better shooting the 3. And rebounding and playing with confidence.

On a separate note, I love that he has chosen to stay with Kemba during the stoppage. Cozying up to a professional and an All-Star on the team like Kemba is never a bad way to start your career.

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/video/grant-williams-details-staying-kemba-walker-during-quarantine

If Kemba is looking out for you and showing that he has a stake in your success it certainly bodes well for you.