Do we need a 4?

[Gomes3PC]

Tatum at his full strength is not undersized. His frame, length and athleticism easily fit as a modern 4. What doesn't fit is his 215 lb weight. At 230, which I suspect he can easily fill into by the time he is 24-25 like Siakam did, he is plenty strong enough to hold up at the 4.

Hayward already is strong enough to hold up at the 4, it is just his T-Rex arms that hold him back from playing more as a 4.

Tatum's not a given to mature into a PF.

Otto Porter is still pretty much the same lanky SF he was when he came into the league.

Guys like KG and KD got stronger as they got older but always depended on superior length to make up for bulk deficits.

Tatum does have the Dwight/AD shoulders, so there's room for optimism, but I'm not convinced yet.

I mean, yes, but during the one year he was in the league it was clear he added like 10 pounds to his frame between his rookie and sophomore years. I'm not expecting him to turn into Ojeleye overnight but I think there will be a natural bulking of his frame. Part of that needs to be a directive of the team - I am guessing Otto didn't ever bulk up in part because WAS never asked him to do so. Maybe there's limits, maybe Otto doesn't want to be a stretch 4 (and maybe Tatum doesn't either) but if a guy as rail thin and under-developed as KD can turn himself into a frontcourt guy in his prime, Tatum probably can too if the team and he commit to that as his growth path.

[Gomes3PC]

6'9"/6'11" height/wingspan isn't anything special these days for a 4. KD (6'11'/7'5") Siakam (6'9"/7'3"). Horford is playing for Philly, Draymond has 7'1" wingspan, as does Jonathan Isaac. JJJ is 6'11"/7/4" and plays the 4 (and the 5).

At the 3, he has great advantages since he's fast for his height/length. Even at 230, at the 4, he's at best neutral physically, at worst slightly undersized. Hayward isn't even close, other than maybe strength he doesn't match up physically at all with other 4s.

Tatum's standing reach is 1 inch off of Siakam's and Horford's and .5" longer than Draymond's. That's at least as relevant in the frontcourt as wingspan, if not moreso given it's more about rim protection there than deflecting passes. Frankly my concern with Tatum is less about his ability to challenge PFs lengthwise and more whether is body frame may always be a guy who is a bit lacking sand in his pants - he has a good wide shoulder frame but his legs are narrow and he has no ass whatsoever. That higher center of gravity will be more of an inhibitor than if his 8-10 reach should be 8-11. The advanced metrics already show him as a premium defender at both the 3 and 4, and once he gets strong enough, I suspect he has everything needed to be good at the 4 defensively and dominate most of those slower PFs on the other end

For the record, I am confident JJJ is only playing the 4 right now because he's developing, just like KD started as a SG and moved down once he got stronger. In his prime he is a 5 and Clarke will be their 4. Tatum is the same - his strength makes it easier to play SF for now, but at maturity he will shift down to the 4 more and more.

This all circles back to - TODAY - we do not have an ideal frontcourt to battle in the east, but we don't have the requisite baseline talent on the roster to do so either. In 2 years I think the picture looks a lot different as this roster matures and Ainge continues to build around Tatum, Brown and Smart.

Agreed on JJJ and Horford both being more 5 than 4. I just think the trend is to taller/longer skilled bigs at 4 and those guys were off the top of my head. And I'd rather be longer at some positions than nuetral/short. We're short at PG, long with Brown at 2/short with Smart, neutral at 3 with Hayward, neutral/short at 4 if it's Tatum. 5 we're probably neutral this year. MIL just smothered us with length in the playoffs and rendered us ineffective.

And, I'm talking ideally, too, not just today. I think the only real long term option on the current roster at 4 is to develop RWilliams, but he just has so much to learn. I think he's just gotta focus on one position this year, and he's been playing center last year/SL, so that's probably the one. But, if you can do it, a 2-4 lineup of Brown/Tatum/Williams would be great.

I do agree at a fundamental level that more length is better than less. TOR also smothered their opponents the same way. It's just not everything, and Tatum playing the 4 won't be the inhibitor to true contention. If he develops into an All-NBA guy like we want him to, the hole to me is really finding another wing long term to fit between him and Brown.

My long-term goal is build a team around Smart at PG, Brown at SG, Tatum/[TBD] at the wings and Timelord at C (or another bouncy rim protector who doesn't need lots of touches). The ideal is to find some sort of primary initiator on the wing to fit between Brown and Tatum, which may be threading the needle too far, but if we can find that, I think you wind up with plus-plus length, defense and athleticism. Love Kemba but I think he is a stopgap on the way to building around the under-25 core sooner than later.

[djFan71]

Tatum's standing reach is 1 inch off of Siakam's and Horford's and .5" longer than Draymond's. That's at least as relevant in the frontcourt as wingspan, if not moreso given it's more about rim protection there than deflecting passes. Frankly my concern with Tatum is less about his ability to challenge PFs lengthwise and more whether is body frame may always be a guy who is a bit lacking sand in his pants - he has a good wide shoulder frame but his legs are narrow and he has no ass whatsoever. That higher center of gravity will be more of an inhibitor than if his 8-10 reach should be 8-11. The advanced metrics already show him as a premium defender at both the 3 and 4, and once he gets strong enough, I suspect he has everything needed to be good at the 4 defensively and dominate most of those slower PFs on the other end

For the record, I am confident JJJ is only playing the 4 right now because he's developing, just like KD started as a SG and moved down once he got stronger. In his prime he is a 5 and Clarke will be their 4. Tatum is the same - his strength makes it easier to play SF for now, but at maturity he will shift down to the 4 more and more.

This all circles back to - TODAY - we do not have an ideal frontcourt to battle in the east, but we don't have the requisite baseline talent on the roster to do so either. In 2 years I think the picture looks a lot different as this roster matures and Ainge continues to build around Tatum, Brown and Smart.

Agreed on JJJ and Horford both being more 5 than 4. I just think the trend is to taller/longer skilled bigs at 4 and those guys were off the top of my head. And I'd rather be longer at some positions than nuetral/short. We're short at PG, long with Brown at 2/short with Smart, neutral at 3 with Hayward, neutral/short at 4 if it's Tatum. 5 we're probably neutral this year. MIL just smothered us with length in the playoffs and rendered us ineffective.

And, I'm talking ideally, too, not just today. I think the only real long term option on the current roster at 4 is to develop RWilliams, but he just has so much to learn. I think he's just gotta focus on one position this year, and he's been playing center last year/SL, so that's probably the one. But, if you can do it, a 2-4 lineup of Brown/Tatum/Williams would be great.

I do agree at a fundamental level that more length is better than less. TOR also smothered their opponents the same way. It's just not everything, and Tatum playing the 4 won't be the inhibitor to true contention. If he develops into an All-NBA guy like we want him to, the hole to me is really finding another wing long term to fit between him and Brown.

My long-term goal is build a team around Smart at PG, Brown at SG, Tatum/[TBD] at the wings and Timelord at C (or another bouncy rim protector who doesn't need lots of touches). The ideal is to find some sort of primary initiator on the wing to fit between Brown and Tatum, which may be threading the needle too far, but if we can find that, I think you wind up with plus-plus length, defense and athleticism. Love Kemba but I think he is a stopgap on the way to building around the under-25 core sooner than later.

Agree almost completely with that core - other than the Tatum position slideup. Keep him at 3, get a young Al next to Timelord and you're golden (simple, right?). I love Kemba as well, but really didn't want him - would have used cap space to take on assets (like the Iggy/Harkless trades), seen whether Smart could have done it, drafted NAW/Clarke/Claxton, etc. But, I get it, we don't have that playmaking without Kemba when Hayward sits. I personally don't care since we aren't winning it this year, but I get the thought process.

[canman1971]

What is this, Hoosiers? We need 5 to play a game.

[djFan71]

What is this, Hoosiers? We need 5 to play a game.

Big 3. We're debating whether a 4th would help or clog up the spacing.

[Slartibartfast]

Tatum's standing reach is 1 inch off of Siakam's and Horford's and .5" longer than Draymond's. That's at least as relevant in the frontcourt as wingspan, if not moreso given it's more about rim protection there than deflecting passes. Frankly my concern with Tatum is less about his ability to challenge PFs lengthwise and more whether is body frame may always be a guy who is a bit lacking sand in his pants - he has a good wide shoulder frame but his legs are narrow and he has no ass whatsoever. That higher center of gravity will be more of an inhibitor than if his 8-10 reach should be 8-11. The advanced metrics already show him as a premium defender at both the 3 and 4, and once he gets strong enough, I suspect he has everything needed to be good at the 4 defensively and dominate most of those slower PFs on the other end

For the record, I am confident JJJ is only playing the 4 right now because he's developing, just like KD started as a SG and moved down once he got stronger. In his prime he is a 5 and Clarke will be their 4. Tatum is the same - his strength makes it easier to play SF for now, but at maturity he will shift down to the 4 more and more.

This all circles back to - TODAY - we do not have an ideal frontcourt to battle in the east, but we don't have the requisite baseline talent on the roster to do so either. In 2 years I think the picture looks a lot different as this roster matures and Ainge continues to build around Tatum, Brown and Smart.

Agreed on JJJ and Horford both being more 5 than 4. I just think the trend is to taller/longer skilled bigs at 4 and those guys were off the top of my head. And I'd rather be longer at some positions than nuetral/short. We're short at PG, long with Brown at 2/short with Smart, neutral at 3 with Hayward, neutral/short at 4 if it's Tatum. 5 we're probably neutral this year. MIL just smothered us with length in the playoffs and rendered us ineffective.

And, I'm talking ideally, too, not just today. I think the only real long term option on the current roster at 4 is to develop RWilliams, but he just has so much to learn. I think he's just gotta focus on one position this year, and he's been playing center last year/SL, so that's probably the one. But, if you can do it, a 2-4 lineup of Brown/Tatum/Williams would be great.

I do agree at a fundamental level that more length is better than less. TOR also smothered their opponents the same way. It's just not everything, and Tatum playing the 4 won't be the inhibitor to true contention. If he develops into an All-NBA guy like we want him to, the hole to me is really finding another wing long term to fit between him and Brown.

My long-term goal is build a team around Smart at PG, Brown at SG, Tatum/[TBD] at the wings and Timelord at C (or another bouncy rim protector who doesn't need lots of touches). The ideal is to find some sort of primary initiator on the wing to fit between Brown and Tatum, which may be threading the needle too far, but if we can find that, I think you wind up with plus-plus length, defense and athleticism. Love Kemba but I think he is a stopgap on the way to building around the under-25 core sooner than later.

I think Romeo-Brown-Tatum as 2-3-4 makes sense so long as Tatum gets stronger and Romeo's shot improves.

Could work with Kemba too - sort of a Cav's championship model. Obv no LBJ, but the idea of stacking so much talent in perimeter scoring and shooting and then using a quick-footed garbage man in Tristan Thompson to keep it from falling apart defensively.

We'd have a lot riding on Tatum really exploding on both sides of the floor tho.

[canman1971]

What is this, Hoosiers? We need 5 to play a game.

Big 3. We're debating whether a 4th would help or clog up the spacing.

You may have missed my lame joke (reference) regarding "Hoosiers."

Watch on YouTube

[djFan71]

What is this, Hoosiers? We need 5 to play a game.

Big 3. We're debating whether a 4th would help or clog up the spacing.

You may have missed my lame joke (reference) regarding "Hoosiers."

Watch on YouTube

Nah, I was with ya. Just (tried) redirecting/inverting the joke to the Big 3 tournament.

[canman1971]

Big 3. We're debating whether a 4th would help or clog up the spacing.

You may have missed my lame joke (reference) regarding "Hoosiers."

Watch on YouTube

Nah, I was with ya. Just (tried) redirecting/inverting the joke to the Big 3 tournament.

Haha, gotcha. I thought that briefly, but a butterfly flew in front of me then I thought of Bird/McHale/Parish.