Ainge must bring in players with different skill sets

[Celtics_History_Lesson]

Kemba Walker is the biggest pile of trash as a "max" player there could be, except for Enis Kanter at big money. Certainly shows why the "super-max" is a terrible idea, and how Charlotte is wrecked if they pay that, and their "superstar" is "insulted" and leaves if not paid it.


K Walker may kill the Celtics, 30 points a game on big %s, but that is just an indictment on how the Celtics can be confused and lazy in recent seasons.

Walker is short and weak, selfish, and does not win. If the Celtics replace half their team with overpaid K Walker they will be a less-entertaining version of the Hornets.

Someone is trying to turn the Celtics into ESPN-approved basketball, with a few highlight plays but nobody mentions all the missed shots and stupid plays, and all the losing.

Rozier isn't worth league minimum, and K Walker is just a slight upgrade from Rozier. Most teams build their offense around their highest-paid and their highest draft pick. Those players, who should be the starters at shooting guard and small forward because they are too small for power forward and the team has no chance of winning if they play power forward, won't see the ball once again if little, selfish point guard is around.

Rozier from 3 35% for his career, K Walker 36%. Per minute, Rozier more rebounds, Walker has more shot attempts and points and a little bit more passing.

Just last season, Walker 43% from the field, Smart 42%, Rozier 39%, Wanamaker 48%.

Assist rate per 36, Walker 6, Smart 5, Rozier 5, Wanamaker 6.

Shot attempt rate, Walker 21, Smart 9, Wanamaker 11, Rozier 13.


Just a little chucker on a bad team.

True Shooting %, Walker 56%, Smart 57%, Wanamaker 60%, Rozier 50%.


I Thomas at league minimum, or K Walker at $100million over 3 or 4 seasons?


Ainge must bring in players with skills. Chucking is not a skill. K Walker, Kanter, selfish chuckers who have never played defense.





What a terrible offseason, which is worse than the terrible season.



If the team had a competent front office, they would build around shooting guard Tatum. That means a point guard who can pass him the ball, maybe Rubio. At least a player at point guard who knows their job is to pass the ball. That then means a small forward who can space the floor and move the ball around, which due to overpaying means Hayward. They then need rebounding and defense and inside scoring, so R Williams is a start.

A defensive guard off the bench, Smart. A solid backup point guard, Wanamaker. A shooting spark for when offense is lacking, maybe C Edwards. The versatile bench forward, possibly G Williams.

Many more holes to fill. Trading J Brown is the obvious move, or the choice then becomes losing him for nothing or giving him $120million to brick free throws and dribble the ball behind his back and out of bounds. They already used a very high pick on Brown's replacement, Langford, so Brown has to go as Tatum and Hayward need to play. Inside scoring, wasting all the money on Orlando's center or Kanter won't help. Better to be paid to take a bad contract for a year, and then address inside scoring in the next draft or free agency or trade, than locking the team into losing with Vucevic at max money. If a team can't win with Horford and Irving, then replacing them with only Vucevic means the team really can't win.


They can't have the same mess this upcoming season, when Rozier and Morris and Brown were shooting more often than $60million worth of Horford and Hayward. By per game assists, the Celtics are losing their top 2 players. Replacing them with selfish chuckers is a plan to make things worse.

Everyone here is correct, if the only "skill" that more than half the roster has is "iso" chucking of low-percentage shots, the team is a disaster. At least in the first half of the season, a lot of those bad Marcus Morris selfish iso shots went in, which was a surprise. He then reverted to what he has always been, selfish chucker who missed and fell over.


The Hornets were terrible. If the Celtics become the Hornets, the Kemba Chucking Show, that will be the most unwatchable Celtics team ever.

[[EverGreen]]

I agree that a complementary skillset is great for our roster construction. We almost have that as is, though. Say we add Capella, then we could be looking at:

G: SMART- Ball movement, Secondary playmaker, Defensive anchor, Low Usage Shooter
G: BROWN - Transition Offense, Above Average 3P shooter, Point of Attack Defense
F: HAYWARD - Balanced Offensive Game, Primary Ball Handler, Switch Defense
F: TATUM - Isolation Scoring, Shot Creation, 3P Shooter, Switch Defense
C: CAPELLA - Defensive anchor, Rebounding, Transition Offense

That's a pretty diverse skillset. And actually, writing it out gets me hyped for it lol.

I'm on board with this and I think is my preferred line-up for next season. There are some question marks about Smarts quickness on D, but he will be a beast in the pick and roll. He's going to fight and I'm down with that.

I would have liked to keep Baynes to be able swap out with Capella at times, because I think we still will need another big off the bench.

[OldCeltics]

Capella is the key.

He's 13 rbd, 56% fg, 1.5 blks, 1.5 stl. 25 years old.

Those are Anthony Davis numbers minus the scoring.

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[Bleeding Green]

Is a big all that necessary? What team has a big that is even the 5th best player on their team? And certainly if they do he's not a traditional big, but more like Dray Green.

Philly and Denver, but those are generational talents. There is one Jokic. There are a few Embiid-like players, but good luck getting one without a top-3 pick (KAT, AD, Embiid, Ayton all in this mold, all taken #1 overall except Embiid who would have been taken there if not for injury). Notice they're all on bad teams except Embiid.

Vuc is nice, but he's not max contract nice. I'd love to see Kemba on a team where his best teammate isn't Cody Zeller (but also not interested in giving Kemba the max unless there are additional moves in place). Definitely this team needs some guys who can play off-ball, though. Not familiar enough with Hornets basketball to know if Kemba has that game in him. Certainly I think you'd see his efficiency spike up a little on a team where he didn't need to have a 30+% USG rate.

They all need to watch D-Wade highlights and how he cut to the basket without the ball. It should be something that every athletic wing player has in his game, but no one on this team seems capable of making basic cuts and reads to the basket for some reason.

Main reason to have a big is to deal with Embiid and Giannis. The guy doesn't have to get a ton of points but if we can't replace Horford's defense with something close, we're not going to beat many good teams.

I guess, but this team isn't going to beat a lot of good teams by just bringing in some expensive big who defends Embiid well (literally Marc Gasol and....). And the Celtics even with Horford played Giannis like ****. I'm all for going all-in if it makes sense, but I'm not seeing it with this club barring some unforeseen trade. Vucevic ain't that guy, that's for sure.

[s1ickd]

Kemba has had Marvin William's and Batum as his best teammates.

Upgrade that to Hayward Tatum Brown and it's a different story.

[Red2]

I like Kemba walker but I sure hope we don’t spend all our $$ on him . It will doom us to mediocrity

[Red2]

I think Danny is desperately trying to salvage something after a disastrous off season. I hope he doesn’t give a max contract to a good but not great player. I’d rather take our lumps and build through the draft and smart signings of up and coming talent

[Gomes3PC]

Ainge is a lot of things but hes not a guy who will make a move just to try to save face. He has more job security than anyone in the NBA, and he uses that to his advantage.

If Danny makes a big move this offseason it will be because he thinks its the right thing to do, and not to try to appease fans or the talk radio shows.

[ballup]

While I do agree the basic premise of successful teams having players with varying offensive skills, the Celtics' problem was the lack of dribble penetration. The Celtics couldn't break down the defense and they ended up throwing up bad shots. Less than 10% of their possessions came from ISOs, but they were in the bottom of the league in terms of converting them. Kyrie isn't a drive and kick kind of player (think early Rondo or Rose). Hayward was extremely passive, Tatum stopped driving, Rozier can't finish, Brown's dribbling wasn't good enough, and Morris was a shoot first kind of guy. That combination leads to nothing being shifted around and not much productive ball movement.

Kemba is a heavy pick and roll player, not an ISO player. Combine him with Vucevic, who is a good screener and has the ability to pop, you get a great combo. Kemba is a near the top for drives per game and he is capable of kick outs. The problem is that they limit how much the other three get in touches, turning them into heavy spot up guys.

I don't think Ainge should bring either Kemba or Vucevic onto the team despite how good both are. They don't extend the ceiling high enough for contention and there would still be too many mouths to feed again.

[scootch]

I posted this in the general off-season, but:

Why don't we just offer those non-Memphis firsts we'll have next year as incentive to clear ALL the capspace for Houston? Then we have something like this if we absorb all three of the contracts they are trying to move (if they even want to move all three):

PG: Smart/Gordon/Edwards
SG: Brown/Gordon/Langford
SF: Hayward/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
PF: Tatum/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
C: Capela/R. Williams/Depth Big

Wing City. Just like Brad wants it. And still some room to fill out. This also moves away from the offensive system we've been reliant on the past few years. It has been getting a little stagnant, and maybe a refocusing is for the best. Very versatile.

[soxfan2003]

Ainge is a lot of things but hes not a guy who will make a move just to try to save face. He has more job security than anyone in the NBA, and he uses that to his advantage.

If Danny makes a big move this offseason it will be because he thinks its the right thing to do, and not to try to appease fans or the talk radio shows.

I think you overstate Ainge's job security a bit. I suspect Ainge's is starting to lose medium term job security . Over 10 years since a title and just one title in title town. And head of a team that just disappointed in the playoffs and lost in 5 games. The Warriors and Raptors have gms's that must have bigger job security right now....

Right thing to do from what perspective? Maximize profit?
Win banner 18? Or something else perhaps in between?

We shall see but I am nervous in the sense Celtics have money to spend and quite frankly only 1-2 FAs are even worth the maximum that the Celtics can offer in Celtics current position. And one of those Leonard has about a 0% chance of going to the Celtics. And the other one post injury KD probably has a less than 1% chance of going to Celtics even if makes some logical sense for him to join Boston.

[Fencer reregistered]

Celtics 2008:

Pierce - Driving the lane and getting fouls
Ray Allen - Shooting specialists, 3pt assassin

I remember one of those guys winning the three-point contest, and it wasn't the "shooting specialist".

My point is that the roles weren't as narrow as you're suggesting.

[ParticleMan]

I posted this in the general off-season, but:

Why don't we just offer those non-Memphis firsts we'll have next year as incentive to clear ALL the capspace for Houston? Then we have something like this if we absorb all three of the contracts they are trying to move (if they even want to move all three):

PG: Smart/Gordon/Edwards
SG: Brown/Gordon/Langford
SF: Hayward/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
PF: Tatum/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
C: Capela/R. Williams/Depth Big

Wing City. Just like Brad wants it. And still some room to fill out. This also moves away from the offensive system we've been reliant on the past few years. It has been getting a little stagnant, and maybe a refocusing is for the best. Very versatile.

we can't fit all 3 of gordon,capela,tucker. but we can for just capela+tucker, both are pretty solid players on reasonable deals. we can slot them right into our 25m space. give them two non-memphis picks. they pass one on to philly, they use the other as an incentive to dump gordon. we even have 9m left to potentially re-sign rozier or renounce him and sign someone else.

we get some actual talent at C and PF, and let the kids develop. i'm fine with having capela long term at like 18m per, that will increasingly be a bargain.

[GrandTheftRondo]

How does Vucevic fill a need? Why do some on here still think having a post game as a big is beneficial these days?

He’s big and can rebound. His best skill is a post game which hasn’t been of major use on a championship team since 2010 or 2011.

Not worth the money.

5 men honestly aren’t that big of a concern in the modern NBA. The Raptors had Gasol but he wasn’t really that influential. Helped protect the rim I guess. The Warriors have had a revolving door of centres since Bogut left. At times they didn’t even care to have a 5 on the floor in key stretches. The Cavs won with Tristan Thompson playing the five.

Point is I think having a rim protector is far more important. Doesn’t have to be a five. As long as they rebound and can challenge shots.

[OldCeltics]

How does Vucevic fill a need? Why do some on here still think having a post game as a big is beneficial these days?

He’s big and can rebound. His best skill is a post game which hasn’t been of major use on a championship team since 2010 or 2011.

Not worth the money.

Toronto just won. Leonard, Siakam were ok.

However Marc Gasol was the real reason they won. Anytime he scored over 15 points they were unbeatable.

It's because he brought an entirely new dimension to defend inside the post. Warriors could not defend him effectively.

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[cloverleaf]

Kemba has had Marvin William's and Batum as his best teammates.

Upgrade that to Hayward Tatum Brown and it's a different story.

8

Could be some shot-sharing issues again with that foursome starting together? Who will be happy off the bench next year? Are you sending Smart there?

[scootch]

I posted this in the general off-season, but:

Why don't we just offer those non-Memphis firsts we'll have next year as incentive to clear ALL the capspace for Houston? Then we have something like this if we absorb all three of the contracts they are trying to move (if they even want to move all three):

PG: Smart/Gordon/Edwards
SG: Brown/Gordon/Langford
SF: Hayward/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
PF: Tatum/Tucker/Ojeleye/G. Williams
C: Capela/R. Williams/Depth Big

Wing City. Just like Brad wants it. And still some room to fill out. This also moves away from the offensive system we've been reliant on the past few years. It has been getting a little stagnant, and maybe a refocusing is for the best. Very versatile.

we can't fit all 3 of gordon,capela,tucker. but we can for just capela+tucker, both are pretty solid players on reasonable deals. we can slot them right into our 25m space. give them two non-memphis picks. they pass one on to philly, they use the other as an incentive to dump gordon. we even have 9m left to potentially re-sign rozier or renounce him and sign someone else.

we get some actual talent at C and PF, and let the kids develop. i'm fine with having capela long term at like 18m per, that will increasingly be a bargain.

I believe we can if we trade Yabu back.

[GrandTheftRondo]

How does Vucevic fill a need? Why do some on here still think having a post game as a big is beneficial these days?

He’s big and can rebound. His best skill is a post game which hasn’t been of major use on a championship team since 2010 or 2011.

Not worth the money.

Toronto just won. Leonard, Siakam were ok.

However Marc Gasol was the real reason they won. Anytime he scored over 15 points they were unbeatable.

It's because he brought an entirely new dimension to defend inside the post. Warriors could not defend him effectively.

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Siakim and Leonard have post games that complement their ability to put the ball on the floor and create their own shot.

Marc Gasol came in a mid season trade and is a former DPOY. Of course he was going to have some sort of positive impact. He impacts games without having to score a lot.

The Warriors couldn’t defend simple pick and rolls. Didn’t matter who was the roll man. Had little to do with Gasol’s post game.

[OldCeltics]

How does Vucevic fill a need? Why do some on here still think having a post game as a big is beneficial these days?

He’s big and can rebound. His best skill is a post game which hasn’t been of major use on a championship team since 2010 or 2011.

Not worth the money.

Toronto just won. Leonard, Siakam were ok.

However Marc Gasol was the real reason they won. Anytime he scored over 15 points they were unbeatable.

It's because he brought an entirely new dimension to defend inside the post. Warriors could not defend him effectively.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

Siakim and Leonard have post games that complement their ability to put the ball on the floor and create their own shot.

Marc Gasol came in a mid season trade and is a former DPOY. Of course he was going to have some sort of positive impact. He impacts games without having to score a lot.

The Warriors couldn’t defend simple pick and rolls. Didn’t matter who was the roll man. Had little to do with Gasol’s post game.

I disagre. They would often dump it inside to Gasol and let him work inside. It opened up the play of all his team mates.

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[GrandTheftRondo]

Toronto just won. Leonard, Siakam were ok.

However Marc Gasol was the real reason they won. Anytime he scored over 15 points they were unbeatable.

It's because he brought an entirely new dimension to defend inside the post. Warriors could not defend him effectively.

Sent from my SM-G930V using RealGM mobile app

Siakim and Leonard have post games that complement their ability to put the ball on the floor and create their own shot.

Marc Gasol came in a mid season trade and is a former DPOY. Of course he was going to have some sort of positive impact. He impacts games without having to score a lot.

The Warriors couldn’t defend simple pick and rolls. Didn’t matter who was the roll man. Had little to do with Gasol’s post game.

I disagre. They would often dump it inside to Gasol and let him work inside. It opened up the play of all his team mates.

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Gasol’s biggest impact with the Raptors was defensively. They had an incredible defence and he absolutely helped there.

Anyway my point was that he came cheap in a deadline trade and had a side role in the scheme of things, just like other 5s on title teams in recent times.

For the Celtics to throw big money at Vucevic who has had one all star year, is nowhere near the defender Gasol is (I don’t care what RPM says) and isn’t going to sacrifice shots at this stage of his career would be sheer madness.

Wings rule the NBA.

Much rather the Celtics have a revolving door on centres until they are ready to compete for a title and even then I don’t think an expensive centre will be that necessary.