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Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread

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Sign & Trade Won't Die \ Cap Thread 

Post#1 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:39 pm

Just to stop Zoya, William and I from derailing every other thread.

zoyathedestroya wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:I think we're done. Just bring back Theis and sign a vet. That's 14 spots.


Just when I was falling in love with my Meyers Leonard scenario. The Cody Zeller one is a bit sketchy. Dunno if it'll work.

1. Sign Terry.
2. Sign Kanter.
3. Have ~$12M left for your big trade.
4. Continue.



1. Trade Semi for Meyers Leonard.
2. Sign Rozier into cap space.
3. Trade Rozier, Yabu, Baynes++ for Kemba in 3-way w/ PHO.
4. Sign Kanter for room exception.
5. Sign 1st round picks.
6. Re-sign Theis. Sign veterans including Carsen Edwards.

#1 gonna be unlikely though.

#1 could be anyone, or just a straight FA signing, though. Overpay Looney\Vonleh to a 2 year starting at $10-12M, partial guarantee or team option on 2nd year. Great trade chip and if they earn the money, even better.

I think the hold up will actually be the S&T of Yabu part. Doubt CHA wants him - they're already overpaying for Rozier. So, we probably need to convince PHO to take him (if they still can) or find a 4th team.

But, if it did work out:

Kemba, Smart, Edwards
Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Langford, GWill, Semi
RWIII, Kanter, Vonleh, Theis
Vet min PG?

That's a pretty good salvage and you have that extra salary for the deadline if something really good comes up.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#2 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 7:45 pm

Is this even legal? I feel we're missing something. Otherwise, we would've signed someone with that cap space already. That's more than the full MLE.

We didn't use the cap space for Kemba since salary matching rules applied so I feel that part's correct.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#3 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:03 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:Is this even legal? I feel we're missing something. Otherwise, we would've signed someone with that cap space already. That's more than the full MLE.

We didn't use the cap space for Kemba since salary matching rules applied so I feel that part's correct.

It seems like it, but I've only been on board for a few hours now and, in theory, am at work..... so haven't really dug in.
I wonder if the hold up is finding someone to take Yabs?

williambh3 wrote:

Any thoughts on this?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#4 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:08 pm

Added background:
djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:
djFan71 wrote:Pretty slick, but couple questions.
1) Leonard is just to get a big under the cap before the other steps, right? He's not involved in the S&T?
2) Why isn't Terry BYC in this s&t? I'm missing why he wouldn't only could for half his salary.

1) Yes, it's our way to get a decent big. Expiring too. Possible trade ballast midseason. Costing us only Semi. Easier now since Heat need to unload salary.
2) Since Rozier is still signed into cap space. I haven't done the math to the last dollar. But it's probably close.

Hmmmm..... ZarrenTheDestroyan, you may be on to something here.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q93
The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 92). If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

Since we'd be under, that doesn't apply. That and the Baynes deal combo gets us there. Impressive. Since we use the cap for Terry signing, we don't end up with any exceptions after, but we do the trade for the big first into cap space, instead of trying to use an exception to sign one later.

It's probably why Terry got so much. You/Zarren floated the starting salary number out, and we may even send some $ to CHA to help. That actually works quite well. I should actually do some work, but will have to run the #s later to see how big a big salary we could absorb. Would assume it would be roughly up to $15-16M + whoever we send out to stay just under the cap to sign Terry after.


From #92:
The starting salary in a contract signed for a sign-and-trade may be any amount up to the player's maximum, however if the player meets the 5th Year 30% Max criteria (see question number 24) he cannot receive a salary greater than 25% of the cap. Raises are limited to 5%. The player also may be considered to have a lower outgoing salary for trade purposes, which can complicate the trade (see question number 93).

Terry fits all of that as well.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#5 » by ZeroTolerance » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:28 pm

djFan71 wrote:Added background:
djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:1) Yes, it's our way to get a decent big. Expiring too. Possible trade ballast midseason. Costing us only Semi. Easier now since Heat need to unload salary.
2) Since Rozier is still signed into cap space. I haven't done the math to the last dollar. But it's probably close.

Hmmmm..... ZarrenTheDestroyan, you may be on to something here.
http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q93
The 2011 CBA mostly eliminated BYC -- in fact, the term "Base Year Compensation" was removed from the agreement entirely. The rules formerly known as BYC now apply under just one circumstance -- during sign-and-trade transactions (see question number 92). If a team re-signs its Larry Bird or Early Bird free agent in order to trade the player in a sign-and-trade transaction, the player's new salary is greater than the minimum, he receives a raise greater than 20%, and the team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing, then the player's outgoing salary for trade purposes is either his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. The team receiving the player always uses his new salary.

Since we'd be under, that doesn't apply. That and the Baynes deal combo gets us there. Impressive. Since we use the cap for Terry signing, we don't end up with any exceptions after, but we do the trade for the big first into cap space, instead of trying to use an exception to sign one later.

It's probably why Terry got so much. You/Zarren floated the starting salary number out, and we may even send some $ to CHA to help. That actually works quite well. I should actually do some work, but will have to run the #s later to see how big a big salary we could absorb. Would assume it would be roughly up to $15-16M + whoever we send out to stay just under the cap to sign Terry after.


From #92:
The starting salary in a contract signed for a sign-and-trade may be any amount up to the player's maximum, however if the player meets the 5th Year 30% Max criteria (see question number 24) he cannot receive a salary greater than 25% of the cap. Raises are limited to 5%. The player also may be considered to have a lower outgoing salary for trade purposes, which can complicate the trade (see question number 93).

Terry fits all of that as well.


There still seems like hope for something going on here...I'm wondering about WCS and Looney's status and thinking there might be enough money if you include Yabs contract to get one of the two?

If they could get Sacramento or Golden State to absorb Yabs contract in return for a late first round pick (lets say) on a S@T that would be huge!

To me to get one of them using that front office tactic would be a home run....And a terrific end to this FA season...
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#6 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:34 pm

I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#7 » by Andrew McCeltic » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:36 pm

The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#8 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 8:58 pm

DISCLAIMER: I don't know what I'm doing lol. CBA math is hard.

Assume that Baynes hasn't been traded yet (more on this later).
1. Renounce all FAs except Rozier (cap hold) and Theis (cap hold). Remaining space: $19,160,234.00
2. Sign Rozier to his 3-yr/$58M deal starting at $18,412,698.00 (replaces cap hold amount). Remaining space: $10,797,016.00
3. Sign FA or trade for player(s) up to the remaining space. Ex. Jon Leuer*. Remaining space: $1,288,973.00
4. TRADE:

Celtics need $26,080,000.00 outgoing salary to match for Kemba's incoming salary ($32.7M).
Rozier - $18,412,698.00 (BYC not triggered)
Yabu - $3,117,240.00
Baynes - $5,453,280.00
TOTAL: $26,983,218.00

BOS gets Kemba, 32nd pick, 2020 MIL 1st
CHA gets Rozier
PHO Baynes, Yabu, 24th pick

Legal trade? I think so.

5. Sign 1st round rookies G.Williams and Langford.
6. Sign Theis using Bird Rights.
7. Sign Kanter w/ room exception.
8. Sign veteran's minimum guy. Sign Carsen Edwards w/ veteran's minimum.

ROSTER:
Kemba / Brown / Tatum / Hayward / Kanter
Smart / Langford / G.Williams / Leuer / R.Williams
Edwards / vet min / Ojeley / Theis

*Ignore the lame example. Point is, more cap space could be opened up if needed.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#9 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:01 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I like it better when you use your beautiful mind for good rather than evil.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#10 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:04 pm

djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:I just realized it could be Marcus Morris. Cs don't renounce his cap hold ($10.21M). Re-sign him after Kemba trade.
Not that I want him back. But maybe Ainge and co. are holding the spot for him?

I like it better when you use your beautiful mind for good rather than evil.

Opens up options for signings/trades if this is legal/allowed in CBA.

$10.8M is a lot of money for a rotation guy.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#11 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:05 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?

In the scenario we're talking about, we have room to sign Rozier's new contract completely into cap. Then use it's full value (since we think BYC isn't triggered) combined with Baynes & Yabu to get above the minimum outgoing salary to trade for Kemba. At that point cap space doesn't matter, since the trade is legal for a team ending over the cap (which we would).

Before kemba, renouncing everybody (incl Morris): ~$34M space.
Sign Kanter for $5M: $29M
~10M to play with for a big to sign, or $10M + outgoing salary in a trade
Resign Rozier to his $19M - just under cap.
Trade for Kemba.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#12 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:07 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?

I don't think cap space works that way for salary matching. You still have to follow the salary matching rules if you're expected to go over the cap, post-trade.

Rozier's first year salary can fit into the cap space. We need to send out $26.08M for the Kemba deal if we're NOT absorbing Walker into cap space.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#13 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:09 pm

djFan71 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?

In the scenario we're talking about, we have room to sign Rozier's new contract completely into cap. Then use it's full value (since we think BYC isn't triggered) combined with Baynes & Yabu to get above the minimum outgoing salary to trade for Kemba. At that point cap space doesn't matter, since the trade is legal for a team ending over the cap (which we would).

Before kemba, renouncing everybody (incl Morris): ~$34M space.
Sign Kanter for $5M: $29M
~10M to play with for a big to sign, or $10M + outgoing salary in a trade
Resign Rozier to his $19M - just under cap.
Trade for Kemba.


We can do the Kanter signing at the very end since room exception is being used. Baynes's salary takes up that $5M space.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#14 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:12 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?

In the scenario we're talking about, we have room to sign Rozier's new contract completely into cap. Then use it's full value (since we think BYC isn't triggered) combined with Baynes & Yabu to get above the minimum outgoing salary to trade for Kemba. At that point cap space doesn't matter, since the trade is legal for a team ending over the cap (which we would).

Before kemba, renouncing everybody (incl Morris): ~$34M space.
Sign Kanter for $5M: $29M
~10M to play with for a big to sign, or $10M + outgoing salary in a trade
Resign Rozier to his $19M - just under cap.
Trade for Kemba.


We can do the Kanter signing at the very end since room exception is being used. Baynes's salary takes up that $5M space.

Right!
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#15 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:24 pm

We could have gotten that 1st round pick and Mo Harkless from the Heat. Zarren, where you at?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#16 » by Andrew McCeltic » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:29 pm

djFan71 wrote:
Andrew McCeltic wrote:The one thing I’m not clear on is what the rules are for salary matching when you’re under the cap, or will be over it after a trade- if you have 20 million in cap room, you can trade a player making 10 million for a player making 30? And if you have 10 million in cap room, how much salary do you need to send out for a player making 30 million?

I think Rozier’s salary number - 18 million - required us to be far enough under the cap to absorb more money than we were sending out - so that’s 12 million? 9 million?

In the scenario we're talking about, we have room to sign Rozier's new contract completely into cap. Then use it's full value (since we think BYC isn't triggered) combined with Baynes & Yabu to get above the minimum outgoing salary to trade for Kemba. At that point cap space doesn't matter, since the trade is legal for a team ending over the cap (which we would).

Before kemba, renouncing everybody (incl Morris): ~$34M space.
Sign Kanter for $5M: $29M
~10M to play with for a big to sign, or $10M + outgoing salary in a trade
Resign Rozier to his $19M - just under cap.
Trade for Kemba.


Ahh, got it. We’d be at 34 million in cap, 75 million in committed salary even with Baynes?

The problem then is getting Charlotte to take on another 8 million in salary - does that keep them under the luxury tax line?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#17 » by Andrew McCeltic » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:30 pm

djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:
djFan71 wrote:In the scenario we're talking about, we have room to sign Rozier's new contract completely into cap. Then use it's full value (since we think BYC isn't triggered) combined with Baynes & Yabu to get above the minimum outgoing salary to trade for Kemba. At that point cap space doesn't matter, since the trade is legal for a team ending over the cap (which we would).

Before kemba, renouncing everybody (incl Morris): ~$34M space.
Sign Kanter for $5M: $29M
~10M to play with for a big to sign, or $10M + outgoing salary in a trade
Resign Rozier to his $19M - just under cap.
Trade for Kemba.


We can do the Kanter signing at the very end since room exception is being used. Baynes's salary takes up that $5M space.

Right!


That would actually give us room to trade for Capela...?
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#18 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:33 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
djFan71 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:
We can do the Kanter signing at the very end since room exception is being used. Baynes's salary takes up that $5M space.

Right!


That would actually give us room to trade for Capela...?

Nope. Limit up to $10.8M. It's awfully close.
Theoretically, Celtics can sign Morris to that amount. Need to be within $5M of Capela's salary though.

I don't think Houston is interested in moving Capela now that Butler is no longer available.
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#19 » by Andrew McCeltic » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:41 pm

19 million to Rozier, don’t sign Kanter yet, that leaves 15 million in open cap space? Trade Semi and/or Theis for Capela, give Rozier his raise into the remaining cap, package him with Baynes and Yabu for Kemba, then use the RooMLE on Kanter...

Walker/Smart/Edwards
Brown/Langford
Hayward/vet min
Tatum/Grant Williams
Capela/Kanter/Rob Williams?

Doesn’t Kemba have BYC issues going out from Charlotte, though? He counts as 16 million outgoing - which is why they can take back Rozier’s 18 - and it works because we can take Kemba’s full 32.7 into our cap space? Adding another 8 million means Charlotte would be sending out “16” (under Kemba BYC) and taking back 26..
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Re: Sign & Trade Won't Die Thread 

Post#20 » by djFan71 » Mon Jul 1, 2019 9:52 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:19 million to Rozier, don’t sign Kanter yet, that leaves 15 million in open cap space? Trade Semi and/or Theis for Capela, give Rozier his raise into the remaining cap, package him with Baynes and Yabu for Kemba, then use the RooMLE on Kanter...

Walker/Smart/Edwards
Brown/Langford
Hayward/vet min
Tatum/Grant Williams
Capela/Kanter/Rob Williams?

Doesn’t Kemba have BYC issues going out from Charlotte, though? He counts as 16 million outgoing - which is why they can take back Rozier’s 18 - and it works because we can take Kemba’s full 32.7 into our cap space? Adding another 8 million means Charlotte would be sending out “16” (under Kemba BYC) and taking back 26..

Gotta have Baynes' money included before signing Terry.

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