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Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1421 » by Ernest » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:29 am

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Ernest wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
just because a team is interested in him in free agency and willing to offer him max money it doesn't mean his trade market will be high because of that. the minute he signs a max deal, the perception of the player changes and especially if he isn't living up to the deal he just signed and it's usually a bad look if the team who just signed him to it- is trying to trade that player away so quickly into a newly signed contract.


Teams wanting to sign Brown to big money and potential trade partners for him are def different things. No one is saying that a team who is willing to sign him is later also willing to trade assets for him But it gauges the interest. What else could they go on? How good do our guy think he is? How good do other teams think he is?



My point is I don’t want to be the team to pay him his max and HOPE he pans out. I don’t wanna be the team to over pay him.


Well the alternative is to lose him for nothing. We'll see how things go this year, but he doesn't have to become a star this year to justify the contract. He's gotten better each season, so as long as he keeps that up there is reason to think he will improve each year in his new contract.

Maybe someone who really knows the CBA and cap can chime in here, but it's not like if we let him walk we can go out and sign someone else right?

Hopefully it will work out like it did with Smart and Bradley. We sign Brown to a reasonable deal, half the forum here flips out and then a year or 2 later it's looked at as one of the best deals in the league.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1422 » by Parliament10 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:51 am

Ernest wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
Ernest wrote:
Teams wanting to sign Brown to big money and potential trade partners for him are def different things. No one is saying that a team who is willing to sign him is later also willing to trade assets for him But it gauges the interest. What else could they go on? How good do our guy think he is? How good do other teams think he is?



My point is I don’t want to be the team to pay him his max and HOPE he pans out. I don’t wanna be the team to over pay him.


Well the alternative is to lose him for nothing. We'll see how things go this year, but he doesn't have to become a star this year to justify the contract. He's gotten better each season, so as long as he keeps that up there is reason to think he will improve each year in his new contract.

Maybe someone who really knows the CBA and cap can chime in here, but it's not like if we let him walk we can go out and sign someone else right?

Hopefully it will work out like it did with Smart and Bradley. We sign Brown to a reasonable deal, half the forum here flips out and then a year or 2 later it's looked at as one of the best deals in the league.

Exactly. Totally Agree. Signing Brown seems like a No-Brainer to me.
He'll likely be one of the best deals in 2 years, like you said.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1423 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:23 pm

Ernest wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
Ernest wrote:
Teams wanting to sign Brown to big money and potential trade partners for him are def different things. No one is saying that a team who is willing to sign him is later also willing to trade assets for him But it gauges the interest. What else could they go on? How good do our guy think he is? How good do other teams think he is?



My point is I don’t want to be the team to pay him his max and HOPE he pans out. I don’t wanna be the team to over pay him.


Well the alternative is to lose him for nothing. We'll see how things go this year, but he doesn't have to become a star this year to justify the contract. He's gotten better each season, so as long as he keeps that up there is reason to think he will improve each year in his new contract.

Maybe someone who really knows the CBA and cap can chime in here, but it's not like if we let him walk we can go out and sign someone else right?

Hopefully it will work out like it did with Smart and Bradley. We sign Brown to a reasonable deal, half the forum here flips out and then a year or 2 later it's looked at as one of the best deals in the league.


If you think we have Danny Ainge as a GM and we would let him walk for nothing - you’ve missed the last 10 years. Also if you think brown gets a “reasonable” deal, that means he underperformed this season even more than I’m projecting. It’s been well documented he’s expecting a max deal and will get one.

That’s why I never mentioned letting him walk nor do I think that’s even a remote possibility and it’s the reason why in everyone one of my posts about this I say “if we can get an all star or near all star or player who has potential under a team controlled contract” to do it.

Him not becoming a star this year is one thing but handing him 30 million hoping he does is a really bad mistake.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1424 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:25 pm

Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1425 » by FlatearthZorro » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:44 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.


If you're talking about Horfie, he got 27 mils :D a year. Avery's deal was great, that's why I got my trust in Danny that he will make the right call on Jaylen's next contract or if he trades him.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1426 » by Higgs Boston » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:01 pm

at best an elite 3-D role player? more like at worst, what he has done in the playoffs as 21-22 years only elite role player can do it in their prime.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1427 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:26 pm

Higgs Boston wrote:at best an elite 3-D role player? more like at worst, what he has done in the playoffs as 21-22 years only elite role player can do it in their prime.


except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1428 » by Higgs Boston » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:59 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:at best an elite 3-D role player? more like at worst, what he has done in the playoffs as 21-22 years only elite role player can do it in their prime.


except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...


The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1429 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:06 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.


I agree with this statement. To me Jaylon is a 3 and D wing without the BBIQ, ball handling or shooting to play the 2. Boston’s team 3 point shooting was average at best and Jaylon was a part of the problem. Nor did he appear much improved in FIBA. It should be a concern that Team USA with 4 Celtics was one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the tournament from 3.

The Celtics need a high BBIQ good shooting 2 guard.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1430 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:11 pm

Higgs Boston wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:at best an elite 3-D role player? more like at worst, what he has done in the playoffs as 21-22 years only elite role player can do it in their prime.


except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...


The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually average elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.



Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1431 » by GoGreen » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:44 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.


I agree with this statement. To me Jaylon is a 3 and D wing without the BBIQ, ball handling or shooting to play the 2. Boston’s team 3 point shooting was average at best and Jaylon was a part of the problem. Nor did he appear much improved in FIBA. It should be a concern that Team USA with 4 Celtics was one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the tournament from 3.

The Celtics need a high BBIQ good shooting 2 guard.


That's why it kills me we didn't take Buddy Hield. Danny again fell in love with the long, athletic guy that can't shoot. I had high hopes for him, but it looks like he just doesn't have the instincts to really break through. His feel is just awful.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1432 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:11 pm

Higgs Boston wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:at best an elite 3-D role player? more like at worst, what he has done in the playoffs as 21-22 years only elite role player can do it in their prime.


except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...


The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.


I most def care if I am paying him 30 per for 4-5 years and how it relates to his trade value IF it doesn’t work here. You can harp on how I worded his ceiling or floor all you want and if I used the wrong comparison but the point is that he is far from a star an all star or a superstar and u can bring up the playoffs all you want but when your building around him and he’s supposed to be a building block piece his ENTIRE body of work counts- especially when you have to write that check to him.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1433 » by 100proof » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:14 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.


I agree with this statement. To me Jaylon is a 3 and D wing without the BBIQ, ball handling or shooting to play the 2. Boston’s team 3 point shooting was average at best and Jaylon was a part of the problem. Nor did he appear much improved in FIBA. It should be a concern that Team USA with 4 Celtics was one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the tournament from 3.

The Celtics need a high BBIQ good shooting 2 guard.


Jaylen looked fantastic at FIBA.

Running PGA some and defending 1-5.

Poor shooting on team USA was Boston players fault? Smart is ok and was playing hurt. Tatum got hurt but shot very well. Kemba was off, but hurt . Brown took what was given.

Really reaching with the FIBA stuff imo
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1434 » by 100proof » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:15 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...


The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually average elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.



Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.


Jaylens 3pter has improved non stop since entering the league outside of a couple months last season with an injured hand.

Look at his splits from 3
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1435 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:25 pm

GoGreen wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:Giving Avery Bradley an extra 1 or 2 million per with an expected significant jump of the cap is not the same as paying a 20 million dollar player 32.

Jaylen has all the potential in the world and yes you can name the butlers, kawhi’s etc who have blossomed and hopefully /maybe brown is one of them and we have seen him play great in the playoffs but consistency is his problem.

At the end of the days he’s averaged 11 points and 4 boards a game for his career while shooting pretty bad from the free throw line (65%) and still can’t dribble the ball in a straight line while chewing a piece of bubble gum.

To me at best he’s an elite 3&d role player with extreme athleticism whose ceiling is the 4th best player on a championship team during a super team era and 3rd best in this current landscape. I’d love to be wrong and I’ll admit it if I am, but I’d hate to see the Celtics be wrong and pay him his max and have a Harrison Barnes level contract and production from him.

IF we can get established talent for him that isn’t diminishing - take the proven talent always.


I agree with this statement. To me Jaylon is a 3 and D wing without the BBIQ, ball handling or shooting to play the 2. Boston’s team 3 point shooting was average at best and Jaylon was a part of the problem. Nor did he appear much improved in FIBA. It should be a concern that Team USA with 4 Celtics was one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the tournament from 3.

The Celtics need a high BBIQ good shooting 2 guard.


That's why it kills me we didn't take Buddy Hield. Danny again fell in love with the long, athletic guy that can't shoot. I had high hopes for him, but it looks like he just doesn't have the instincts to really break through. His feel is just awful.


Well given the fact the Kings have Bogdan and Hield it’s not impossible Boston could trade Brown for one of them.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1436 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:36 pm

100proof wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:
The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually average elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.



Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.


Jaylens 3pter has improved non stop since entering the league outside of a couple months last season with an injured hand.

Look at his splits from 3


34.7 is hardly elite 3 point shooting which was his average last year.

Small sample size but he shot 19% in FIBA.

Not saying Brown isn’t a good defender but with Smart, and Ojele we have two very similar players.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1437 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:38 pm

I don’t put any real value in FIBA positively or negatively...couldn’t careless tbh. Carmelo Anthony was a hero on team USA with his play style
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1438 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:45 pm

MagicBagley18 wrote:I don’t put any real value in FIBA positively or negatively...couldn’t careless tbh. Carmelo Anthony was a hero on team USA with his play style


Not talking about his value as an overall player as the FIBA game is very different than the NBA game. However, if he is shooting 19% from 3 it seems unlikely he is suddenly a 40% 3 point shooter during the NBA season.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1439 » by 100proof » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:04 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
100proof wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:

Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.


Jaylens 3pter has improved non stop since entering the league outside of a couple months last season with an injured hand.

Look at his splits from 3


34.7 is hardly elite 3 point shooting which was his average last year.

Small sample size but he shot 19% in FIBA.

Not saying Brown isn’t a good defender but with Smart, and Ojele we have two very similar players.


I don't think anyone believe brown is elite.

I debate against the notion that brown has not improved his shooting. To which I disagree.

He was brutal to start the year and up to allstar break was 31% from 3.
After allstar break was 41% from 3.

45 and 50 from 2 over the same splits.

And looking at fiba for a reference; his defense was superb. Best on the team and most versatile on the team
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1440 » by Parliament10 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:09 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I don’t put any real value in FIBA positively or negatively...couldn’t careless tbh. Carmelo Anthony was a hero on team USA with his play style


Not talking about his value as an overall player as the FIBA game is very different than the NBA game. However, if he is shooting 19% from 3 it seems unlikely he is suddenly a 40% 3 point shooter during the NBA season.

I think that you may be wrong there. Jaylen Brown was a 39.5% shooter in 2017-18.
That being the year the Celtics came within 5 mins of the Finals.

FIBA is all kinds of different. Not to mention the whole time shift, and world wide travel.
But basically, the team just didn't click, and came up far short of the Gold.

Meanwhile back on the Celtics, I think that Team Shamrock's experiences together, will translate well.
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