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Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player

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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1441 » by Parliament10 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:13 pm

100proof wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
100proof wrote:
Jaylens 3pter has improved non stop since entering the league outside of a couple months last season with an injured hand.

Look at his splits from 3


34.7 is hardly elite 3 point shooting which was his average last year.

Small sample size but he shot 19% in FIBA.

Not saying Brown isn’t a good defender but with Smart, and Ojele we have two very similar players.


I don't think anyone believe brown is elite.

I debate against the notion that brown has not improved his shooting. To which I disagree.

He was brutal to start the year and up to allstar break was 31% from 3.
After allstar break was 41% from 3.

45 and 50 from 2 over the same splits.

And looking at fiba for a reference; his defense was superb. Best on the team and most versatile on the team

I don't think that Brown is "Elite", per se. But I do think that he may make an All-Star team or two, in his career.
What he needs to improve upon, is his handles, and absolutely his horrendous Free Throw averages.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1442 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:23 pm

100proof wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
100proof wrote:
Jaylens 3pter has improved non stop since entering the league outside of a couple months last season with an injured hand.

Look at his splits from 3


34.7 is hardly elite 3 point shooting which was his average last year.

Small sample size but he shot 19% in FIBA.

Not saying Brown isn’t a good defender but with Smart, and Ojele we have two very similar players.


I don't think anyone believe brown is elite.

I debate against the notion that brown has not improved his shooting. To which I disagree.

He was brutal to start the year and up to allstar break was 31% from 3.
After allstar break was 41% from 3.

45 and 50 from 2 over the same splits.

And looking at fiba for a reference; his defense was superb. Best on the team and most versatile on the team


Again not arguing the value of Brown’s defense or as a total player. I think on a team that plays with more pace than the Celtics, Brown would be even better.

Brown’s shooting last year was inconsistent. You would hope you might see better shooting during FIBA as a prelude to the season but we did not at all:

Brown: 50.9 TS%

Other Celtics
Smart 58.0%
Tatum 42.6%
Kemba 61.0%

Other NBA guards
Bogdanovic. 74.1
Schroder. 56.8
Sato. 58.9
Gallinari. 70.1
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1443 » by MagicBagley18 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:25 pm

As parl mentioned, the best thing about FIBA was the players got a chance to bond and form chemistry together that hopefully translates to the regular season.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1444 » by Sactowndog » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:24 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:I don’t put any real value in FIBA positively or negatively...couldn’t careless tbh. Carmelo Anthony was a hero on team USA with his play style


Not talking about his value as an overall player as the FIBA game is very different than the NBA game. However, if he is shooting 19% from 3 it seems unlikely he is suddenly a 40% 3 point shooter during the NBA season.

I think that you may be wrong there. Jaylen Brown was a 39.5% shooter in 2017-18.
That being the year the Celtics came within 5 mins of the Finals.

FIBA is all kinds of different. Not to mention the whole time shift, and world wide travel.
But basically, the team just didn't click, and came up far short of the Gold.

Meanwhile back on the Celtics, I think that Team Shamrock's experiences together, will translate well.


You could well be right. I was hoping to see what we saw end of season in FIBA. We shall see how the year starts.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1445 » by 100proof » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:27 pm

Parliament10 wrote:
100proof wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
34.7 is hardly elite 3 point shooting which was his average last year.

Small sample size but he shot 19% in FIBA.

Not saying Brown isn’t a good defender but with Smart, and Ojele we have two very similar players.


I don't think anyone believe brown is elite.

I debate against the notion that brown has not improved his shooting. To which I disagree.

He was brutal to start the year and up to allstar break was 31% from 3.
After allstar break was 41% from 3.

45 and 50 from 2 over the same splits.

And looking at fiba for a reference; his defense was superb. Best on the team and most versatile on the team

I don't think that Brown is "Elite", per se. But I do think that he may make an All-Star team or two, in his career.
What he needs to improve upon, is his handles, and absolutely his horrendous Free Throw averages.



Agreed.

He is an excellent Robin.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1446 » by Darth Celtic » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:10 am

Sactowndog wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:
MagicBagley18 wrote:
except that means that what he has done in the playoffs carries over to the regular season and it hasn't and i believe wont...


The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually average elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.



Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.

Stevans doesn't play with a 2 guard. He plays "wings" and he's one of them. Ball handler. Wings. Bigs. It's more of a 1 pg, 3 wing, 1 big game for him. Always has been. For some teams he goes 2 bigs. So the point about him not being a 2 guard makes no sense at all. He'll be a wing.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1447 » by Sactowndog » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:32 am

Darth Celtic wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Higgs Boston wrote:
The context was different in RS and who cares about RS, the important is playoffs. His performance in RS is what usually average elite role players do, 12-16 PPG with decent efficiency and good defense, what he has done in playoffs is elite among elite role players and few elite role players can do it in their prime.

So like I said, he is a elite role player at worst.



Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.

Stevans doesn't play with a 2 guard. He plays "wings" and he's one of them. Ball handler. Wings. Bigs. It's more of a 1 pg, 3 wing, 1 big game for him. Always has been. For some teams he goes 2 bigs. So the point about him not being a 2 guard makes no sense at all. He'll be a wing.


Whether you call them a wing or 2 guard you need a secondary ball handler and a person who can shoot on the wing. The Celtics have not been a good shooting team.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1448 » by Triple7 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:41 am

The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1449 » by Darth Celtic » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:27 am

Sactowndog wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:

Right but what he does well is not great for your starting 2 guard. He hasn’t grown as a shooter and based on output from FIBA still isn’t much better. Nor is he effective as a secondary ball handler. He is fine as a 3 and D wing but the Celtics have a ton of those. What they don’t have are players who can run off screens and make a 3 point shot consistently.

Stevans doesn't play with a 2 guard. He plays "wings" and he's one of them. Ball handler. Wings. Bigs. It's more of a 1 pg, 3 wing, 1 big game for him. Always has been. For some teams he goes 2 bigs. So the point about him not being a 2 guard makes no sense at all. He'll be a wing.


Whether you call them a wing or 2 guard you need a secondary ball handler and a person who can shoot on the wing. The Celtics have not been a good shooting team.

The Celtics were 7th in the entire NBA as a team shooting 3 point %. And ironically shot the 7th most in the entire NBA. I don't think that's the issue we need to worry about. And maybe you should worry more about your team making the playoffs this decade, I don't see it happening.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1450 » by Jurry » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 am

I've come around on paying Jaylen an 80-90/4 deal, really safe bet that it will pay off in the longrun. But currently, like right this minute (which doesn't matter) theres probably only 1 or 2 desperate reckless teams that would offer him more than 20 per. to date he just hasn't earned it. Good for everyone we have this season to make it more clear.

As to triple7 point we still have an issue from last year of kemba (kyrie) brown hayward and tatum all needing shots and opportunity. You can break that unit up with Smart, theres no ball dominating douches like Rozier or Morris. What helps is if Tatum and Brown are more mature this year and show a better understanding of how to make the offense flow. Another thing is how much does Kemba resemble Kyries role and how willing is he to run an offense and be unselfish. A lot of this is on Brad too. I give him a pass on last year but this year I want to see that overachieving gene again.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1451 » by Ernest » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:10 am

I don't think the positions matter so much when thinking about long term investments in young guys. Sure it would be better if Brown was a 2, but a few years from now maybe we have a team full of 2s. No was to know.

Everyone is a gamble. At the end of the day, you have to gamble on someone. The question shouldn't be about Browns numbers now, it should be about if there are any red flags we can see to make us not want to gamble on him. Sure there is a trade option, but that needs another team to play ball. So the main question for Danny and co is is he worth investing in. Common sense says he is until there is a good reason he isn't.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1452 » by Fencer reregistered » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:26 am

Teams have made bad roster decisions in the past by worrying too much about positional balance -- such as Bowie drafted over Jordan, Milicic drafted over Carmelo, or Harden dumped instead of Ibaka. I can't think of offsetting cases in which they screwed up by worrying about it too little.

Of course, there could be examples where the guy at the balancing position turned out to be better. E.g., Sampson/Olajuwon wasn't an imbalance problem, given how short Sampson's career was, but if Houston had been determined to go small, maybe they would have taken Jordan instead. But that's just coincidence, rather than an argument for a deliberate roster-balance strategy.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1453 » by Sactowndog » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:12 pm

Darth Celtic wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:Stevans doesn't play with a 2 guard. He plays "wings" and he's one of them. Ball handler. Wings. Bigs. It's more of a 1 pg, 3 wing, 1 big game for him. Always has been. For some teams he goes 2 bigs. So the point about him not being a 2 guard makes no sense at all. He'll be a wing.


Whether you call them a wing or 2 guard you need a secondary ball handler and a person who can shoot on the wing. The Celtics have not been a good shooting team.

The Celtics were 7th in the entire NBA as a team shooting 3 point %. And ironically shot the 7th most in the entire NBA. I don't think that's the issue we need to worry about. And maybe you should worry more about your team making the playoffs this decade, I don't see it happening.


You can drop the your team thing. I’m at least as invested in the Celtics success as you.

The Celtics lose Irving, Morris, and Horford. They replace them with largely less efficient shooters. Irving shot 40% and Kemba shoots 35%. Al shot 36% and Kanter shot 29.4%. A lot of shooting walked out the door. If you play Tatum at the 4, right now Smart is our most efficient shooter at the 1, 2, 3.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1454 » by Sactowndog » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:19 pm

Triple7 wrote:The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.


Jaylen like Pippen is a defensive stopper and a very good one. The problem is we already have Smart who is even better. And behind Smart we have Ojele who is capable in that role. How many defensive stoppers does one team need? What we don’t have unless Hayward regains form is a 40% plus 3 point shooter.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1455 » by Ernest » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:24 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
Triple7 wrote:The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.


Jaylen like Pippen is a defensive stopper and a very good one. The problem is we already have Smart who is even better. And behind Smart we have Ojele who is capable in that role. How many defensive stoppers does one team need? What we don’t have unless Hayward regains form is a 40% plus 3 point shooter.


Can't count Semi for anything because he has never cracked the rotation. Maybe he will. Maybe he'll be out of the league soon. Could go either way. But the point is you can't make decisions about your starters based on end of the bench guys.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1456 » by Darth Celtic » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:57 pm

Sactowndog wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Whether you call them a wing or 2 guard you need a secondary ball handler and a person who can shoot on the wing. The Celtics have not been a good shooting team.

The Celtics were 7th in the entire NBA as a team shooting 3 point %. And ironically shot the 7th most in the entire NBA. I don't think that's the issue we need to worry about. And maybe you should worry more about your team making the playoffs this decade, I don't see it happening.


You can drop the your team thing. I’m at least as invested in the Celtics success as you.

The Celtics lose Irving, Morris, and Horford. They replace them with largely less efficient shooters. Irving shot 40% and Kemba shoots 35%. Al shot 36% and Kanter shot 29.4%. A lot of shooting walked out the door. If you play Tatum at the 4, right now Smart is our most efficient shooter at the 1, 2, 3.

And Kemba shot 39% 2 years ago and 38% the year before, and Kyrie shot 32% 3 years ago. In Brads system they will all get more open 3's. It's not just dribble up and shoot.

Kanter was 30% shooter because nobody asked him to. Baynes was a nothing shooter till 2 seasons ago in the playoffs. Expect a lot of corner 3's and a higher % than 30%. It won't be 35, but it will be fine.

Remember on Morris's 3pt shooting. He was on fire the first month or 2, then came way back down to earth in the second half and playoffs. He's not the overall 3 pt shooter he showed last year, AND he also got a lot of wide open looks in brad's system.

Hell, you expect a career 36% 3pt shooter who shot 40% the year before he got injured to shoot 33% again from 3 in Hayward?

Hayward is a secondary ball hander who can shoot. Tatum is as well. Having 1 guy who can only drive dunk and hit spot up 3's like Brown is the least of our worries. A defensive scheme that works with Kanter/Walker is. Not 3pt shooting or JBrowns ability to create off the dribble.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1457 » by Sactowndog » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:59 pm

Ernest wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Triple7 wrote:The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.


Jaylen like Pippen is a defensive stopper and a very good one. The problem is we already have Smart who is even better. And behind Smart we have Ojele who is capable in that role. How many defensive stoppers does one team need? What we don’t have unless Hayward regains form is a 40% plus 3 point shooter.


Can't count Semi for anything because he has never cracked the rotation. Maybe he will. Maybe he'll be out of the league soon. Could go either way. But the point is you can't make decisions about your starters based on end of the bench guys.


That’s fair but the point is the same. We have other players who are athletic good defenders. I didn’t even include Langford who is a long athletic wing that shot poorly from 3. .272%

How many of those guys do we need? If Jaylon showed progress as a shooter great. But I don’t see it.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1458 » by Sactowndog » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:07 pm

Darth Celtic wrote:
Sactowndog wrote:
Darth Celtic wrote:The Celtics were 7th in the entire NBA as a team shooting 3 point %. And ironically shot the 7th most in the entire NBA. I don't think that's the issue we need to worry about. And maybe you should worry more about your team making the playoffs this decade, I don't see it happening.


You can drop the your team thing. I’m at least as invested in the Celtics success as you.

The Celtics lose Irving, Morris, and Horford. They replace them with largely less efficient shooters. Irving shot 40% and Kemba shoots 35%. Al shot 36% and Kanter shot 29.4%. A lot of shooting walked out the door. If you play Tatum at the 4, right now Smart is our most efficient shooter at the 1, 2, 3.

And Kemba shot 39% 2 years ago and 38% the year before, and Kyrie shot 32% 3 years ago. In Brads system they will all get more open 3's. It's not just dribble up and shoot.

Kanter was 30% shooter because nobody asked him to. Baynes was a nothing shooter till 2 seasons ago in the playoffs. Expect a lot of corner 3's and a higher % than 30%. It won't be 35, but it will be fine.

Remember on Morris's 3pt shooting. He was on fire the first month or 2, then came way back down to earth in the second half and playoffs. He's not the overall 3 pt shooter he showed last year, AND he also got a lot of wide open looks in brad's system.

Hell, you expect a career 36% 3pt shooter who shot 40% the year before he got injured to shoot 33% again from 3 in Hayward?

Hayward is a secondary ball hander who can shoot. Tatum is as well. Having 1 guy who can only drive dunk and hit spot up 3's like Brown is the least of our worries. A defensive scheme that works with Kanter/Walker is. Not 3pt shooting or JBrowns ability to create off the dribble.


I agree Hayward is a wild card. I expect to see Smart starting with Kemba. It will be interesting to see if Kemba’s efficiency increases.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1459 » by FlatearthZorro » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:57 am

Sactowndog wrote:
Triple7 wrote:The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.


Jaylen like Pippen is a defensive stopper and a very good one. The problem is we already have Smart who is even better. And behind Smart we have Ojele who is capable in that role. How many defensive stoppers does one team need? What we don’t have unless Hayward regains form is a 40% plus 3 point shooter.


Are you a Celtics fan? Had no idea, tbh, I've seen you post thought you were a Kings' fan.

Btw, to me I think the offense will be great, problem is defense. Horford is LARGELY underrated defender, he is a poor man's Tim Duncan and I'm not even joking. Dude does absolutely everything on defense. Kemba's offense will improve, and he's a better defender than Kyrie according to stats. Also Kemba's 2 best teammates were Batum and Lamb, so his shooting numbers wont be great. Biggest loss right now is easily Horford, that's why Ainge was pissed about him having an agreement with 6ers way before FA started. :lol: I have a feel Ainge wasn't gonna offer 80+ mils on 3 years and 50% guarantee in the 4th like the 6ers did. Rumors were he offered 3-70(75) according to some of the known insiders on twitter.

I think wing defense will be okay, but big men are gonna have to put in some work. I'm counting on Theis and Poirier to step up. Theis' defensive stats are pretty good and he's gonna have a much bigger role this year. Poirier was very good for France in the World cup. Better athlete than Baynes, better shot blocker and rebounder, taller, younger, but can't shoot 3s.

Oh and when it comes to offense, as I wrote above I doubt it will be that big of a problem. The rebounding should improve as well with Kanter/Theis/Poirier, Horfie ain't too strong on the boards(his main weakness imo)... The offense should be good, too, cause Irving left and the ball will be moving. I expect Hayward to run half of our offense(initiating, etc), maybe 30-40% in Kemba's hands and then the young guys.
Good assessment:

PLO wrote:Tatum played OK - took advantage of a few mismatches - decent on the defensive end. He is what we thought he was going into the season - a technically very proficient player operating close to his career ceiling as a rookie.
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Re: Celtics General Offseason Thread Pt 11: Kanter believe you thought of former player 

Post#1460 » by Triple7 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:20 am

Sactowndog wrote:
Triple7 wrote:The Jaylen situation is very confusing. We all know he’s expecting a max offer, and that team’s would probably offer him somewhere close to it, if not the max. The problem is, while i think he has an outside chance to be good, i don’t think he can show that to us this year. Playing behind Kemba, Tatum, hayward, and may be Kanter on offense. My hope is that he turns out like a Pippen type of player, and complementing Kemba and Tatum. The thing is, i don’t think we can see his true potential next season, and his actual play right now wouldn’t justify paying him 33M per year. If we could find a deal around 25M on a four year deal with team option, that would be ideal.


Jaylen like Pippen is a defensive stopper and a very good one. The problem is we already have Smart who is even better. And behind Smart we have Ojele who is capable in that role. How many defensive stoppers does one team need? What we don’t have unless Hayward regains form is a 40% plus 3 point shooter.


While i agree that we need shooters in our team, i think it’s best for us moving forward, is for brown to develop what we hope him to be. A good two way player to complement kemba and tatum. Smart is more of a 6th man type defensive specialist. At 6’4”, he’s basically underheight for most shooting guards, it’s better if he backs up Kemba instead and bully the likes of Lillard and Kyrie. Brown is the ideal 2 guard. Long and athletic. Him and Tatum can be both disruptive on defense because of their length and athleticism. I think Hayward returns to form this season, and if that happens, then that solves our shooting with Kemba and hayward. The problem is if we’re willing to commit big money to Brown based on potential alone. Ainge has a big decision to make. Brad needs to step up this season and maximize the talent we have. He needs to take control of the team early, especially with the rotations. Last year was a mess, with some starters sitting down for almost 2 quarters, just to be able to please everybody. That can’t happen his season.

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