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Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year?

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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#41 » by return2glory » Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:The last thing Tatum and Brown should be thinking about is making the all star game. There was way too much selfishness on last year;s team: no ball movement, too many ISO's, i.e. guys trying to "create their own shot" instead of running the offense.

I'll take a 55 or 60 win team without a single all star. Carmello Anthony was a 10-time all star and got past the first round of the playoffs exactly once.


So with this logic, all star players are selfish.

Tatum should definitely aim to be an all-star because that means he has elevated his game to a very high level. Being an all-star is not something that’s easy to do.

As far as Brown, there is nothing that he had done in this league at resembles anything close to an all-star. I know lot of people here will disagree and that’s normal since it’s a Celtic board. But Brown has had the same issues since day one of being a Celtic. Ball handling issues, poor BBIQ, which includes below average passing and court awareness. Not to mention poor FT shooting.

If Brown became at all star next season, to me it would mean he made great strides in improving his all around game and it wouldn’t be because he was selfish. And I would be happy for Brown and this team if he became an all-star. The more all-stars on this team, the better.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#42 » by sully00 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:42 pm

return2glory wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:The last thing Tatum and Brown should be thinking about is making the all star game. There was way too much selfishness on last year;s team: no ball movement, too many ISO's, i.e. guys trying to "create their own shot" instead of running the offense.

I'll take a 55 or 60 win team without a single all star. Carmello Anthony was a 10-time all star and got past the first round of the playoffs exactly once.


So with this logic, all star players are selfish.

Tatum should definitely aim to be an all-star because that means he has elevated his game to a very high level. Being an all-star is not something that’s easy to do.

As far as Brown, there is nothing that he had done in this league at resembles anything close to an all-star. I know lot of people here will disagree and that’s normal since it’s a Celtic board. But Brown has had the same issues since day one of being a Celtic. Ball handling issues, poor BBIQ, which includes below average passing and court awareness. Not to mention poor FT shooting.

If Brown became at all star next season, to me it would mean he made great strides in improving his all around game and it wouldn’t be because he was selfish. And I would be happy for Brown and this team if he became an all-star. The more all-stars on this team, the better.


I think we hyper focus on Brown's faults way too much and often miss what the rest of the NBA sees. The rest of the NBA can see a really athletic player who is willing to commit defensively and is fearless in big spots. He may never be a 5 apg guy but he could be an elite 3 and D wing who can do some special things athletically. I am not concerned about the All Star thing I want championships and the rest will follow.

The fascinating part of this season for me is that we will likely revisit a similar starting line up that we felt essentially failed at the start of last season. I looked back over the starting line up numbers and basically the team had two starting line ups over the season and neither of them was much better than .500. The line up with Brown and Hayward went 7-6 and the Morris and Smart unit went 19-14. For almost half the season (36 games) they played 21 different random starting line ups none for more than 5 games and they went 23-13.

At first it makes me question the value of having a set starting line up but to be fair some of that is cherry picking as guys like Horford and Irving would take off games against bad teams. The other piece is the Baynes factor. I think his impact ironically contributed to both his and Horford's departure. The two were really good together defensively but not really productive offensively getting a combined 18 ppg and 10 rpg when the teams your competing with our getting a combined 40/20 from those two spots. It is why Kanter makes sense from a production standpoint even if kind of a horror show defensively historically.

But can a starting unit that includes Hayward/Brown and Tatum be effective on both ends. Can they defend well enough and rebound enough next to a productive big to offset the front courts in PHI and MIL. Is there enough shots and touches to make the most of the fire power in that line up.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#43 » by sam_I_am » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:49 pm

sully00 wrote:
return2glory wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:The last thing Tatum and Brown should be thinking about is making the all star game. There was way too much selfishness on last year;s team: no ball movement, too many ISO's, i.e. guys trying to "create their own shot" instead of running the offense.

I'll take a 55 or 60 win team without a single all star. Carmello Anthony was a 10-time all star and got past the first round of the playoffs exactly once.


So with this logic, all star players are selfish.

Tatum should definitely aim to be an all-star because that means he has elevated his game to a very high level. Being an all-star is not something that’s easy to do.

As far as Brown, there is nothing that he had done in this league at resembles anything close to an all-star. I know lot of people here will disagree and that’s normal since it’s a Celtic board. But Brown has had the same issues since day one of being a Celtic. Ball handling issues, poor BBIQ, which includes below average passing and court awareness. Not to mention poor FT shooting.

If Brown became at all star next season, to me it would mean he made great strides in improving his all around game and it wouldn’t be because he was selfish. And I would be happy for Brown and this team if he became an all-star. The more all-stars on this team, the better.


I think we hyper focus on Brown's faults way too much and often miss what the rest of the NBA sees. The rest of the NBA can see a really athletic player who is willing to commit defensively and is fearless in big spots. He may never be a 5 apg guy but he could be an elite 3 and D wing who can do some special things athletically. I am not concerned about the All Star thing I want championships and the rest will follow.

The fascinating part of this season for me is that we will likely revisit a similar starting line up that we felt essentially failed at the start of last season. I looked back over the starting line up numbers and basically the team had two starting line ups over the season and neither of them was much better than .500. The line up with Brown and Hayward went 7-6 and the Morris and Smart unit went 19-14. For almost half the season (36 games) they played 21 different random starting line ups none for more than 5 games and they went 23-13.

At first it makes me question the value of having a set starting line up but to be fair some of that is cherry picking as guys like Horford and Irving would take off games against bad teams. The other piece is the Baynes factor. I think his impact ironically contributed to both his and Horford's departure. The two were really good together defensively but not really productive offensively getting a combined 18 ppg and 10 rpg when the teams your competing with our getting a combined 40/20 from those two spots. It is why Kanter makes sense from a production standpoint even if kind of a horror show defensively historically.

But can a starting unit that includes Hayward/Brown and Tatum be effective on both ends. Can they defend well enough and rebound enough next to a productive big to offset the front courts in PHI and MIL. Is there enough shots and touches to make the most of the fire power in that line up.


Sully, you make a great point. Kanter/Tatum might get 36/15 a game while giving up 40/20. However, one would hope that Kemba/Hayward/Brown plus a solid bench might be able to make up the difference and then some against 85% of NBA. I can see us being a flawed 55 win team that nobody believes can get past Bucks or 76ers. However, it buys the team time to showcase Brown and Hayward and to develop the Williamses and Langford etc. into desirable trade chips and then who knows what could happen at trade deadline.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#44 » by Curmudgeon » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:16 pm

I don't know what "all-star level" means. The real question is whether or not Tatum and Brown can make the leap to the NBA finals. I know what that means.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#45 » by Celticfan_N_FL » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:50 pm

Don't care about "leaps" right now. All I want is to see both guys make improvements to the areas of their games that are below average. In many ways it felt like a lost season last year for their development.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#46 » by canman1971 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 pm

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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#47 » by Andrew McCeltic » Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:06 pm

sully00 wrote:
return2glory wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote:The last thing Tatum and Brown should be thinking about is making the all star game. There was way too much selfishness on last year;s team: no ball movement, too many ISO's, i.e. guys trying to "create their own shot" instead of running the offense.

I'll take a 55 or 60 win team without a single all star. Carmello Anthony was a 10-time all star and got past the first round of the playoffs exactly once.


So with this logic, all star players are selfish.

Tatum should definitely aim to be an all-star because that means he has elevated his game to a very high level. Being an all-star is not something that’s easy to do.

As far as Brown, there is nothing that he had done in this league at resembles anything close to an all-star. I know lot of people here will disagree and that’s normal since it’s a Celtic board. But Brown has had the same issues since day one of being a Celtic. Ball handling issues, poor BBIQ, which includes below average passing and court awareness. Not to mention poor FT shooting.

If Brown became at all star next season, to me it would mean he made great strides in improving his all around game and it wouldn’t be because he was selfish. And I would be happy for Brown and this team if he became an all-star. The more all-stars on this team, the better.


I think we hyper focus on Brown's faults way too much and often miss what the rest of the NBA sees. The rest of the NBA can see a really athletic player who is willing to commit defensively and is fearless in big spots. He may never be a 5 apg guy but he could be an elite 3 and D wing who can do some special things athletically.


Any comps like that? We’ve all mentioned Harrison Barnes, but.. if Jaylen never really gets his handles and awareness together but is strong, athletic, defensively locked in, hits threes, attacks gaps in the defense and has a post up game..
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#48 » by Slartibartfast » Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:03 pm

Andrew McCeltic wrote:
sully00 wrote:
return2glory wrote:
So with this logic, all star players are selfish.

Tatum should definitely aim to be an all-star because that means he has elevated his game to a very high level. Being an all-star is not something that’s easy to do.

As far as Brown, there is nothing that he had done in this league at resembles anything close to an all-star. I know lot of people here will disagree and that’s normal since it’s a Celtic board. But Brown has had the same issues since day one of being a Celtic. Ball handling issues, poor BBIQ, which includes below average passing and court awareness. Not to mention poor FT shooting.

If Brown became at all star next season, to me it would mean he made great strides in improving his all around game and it wouldn’t be because he was selfish. And I would be happy for Brown and this team if he became an all-star. The more all-stars on this team, the better.


I think we hyper focus on Brown's faults way too much and often miss what the rest of the NBA sees. The rest of the NBA can see a really athletic player who is willing to commit defensively and is fearless in big spots. He may never be a 5 apg guy but he could be an elite 3 and D wing who can do some special things athletically.


Any comps like that? We’ve all mentioned Harrison Barnes, but.. if Jaylen never really gets his handles and awareness together but is strong, athletic, defensively locked in, hits threes, attacks gaps in the defense and has a post up game..


Shawn Marion is the star version of that archetype.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#49 » by Tiny ball » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:01 pm

Curmudgeon wrote:I don't know what "all-star level" means. The real question is whether or not Tatum and Brown can make the leap to the NBA finals. I know what that means.

They sure were close with 60 million dollars not playing.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#50 » by Tiny ball » Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:04 pm

Celticfan_N_FL wrote:Don't care about "leaps" right now. All I want is to see both guys make improvements to the areas of their games that are below average. In many ways it felt like a lost season last year for their development.

If you are playing ball 3 times a week for months even dealing with drama queens and thugs you must learn and develop.imho
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#51 » by GuyClinch » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:18 pm

The biggest problem for these two will be Stevens and the offense, IMHO.

He likes a pass friendly offense high BBIQ offense but what we have seen out of these guys is mediocre decision making and poor passing. Because these guys are below average as passers (not Kanter level bad) - they need to be really drilled on making passes when appropriate, picking good shots or good times to drive.

Tatum in particular spends way to much clock time setting up for low percentage shots. Brown will get tentative and start passing on shots he should take and passing when he doesn't need to - or not driving at all. Stevens needs to coach these guys up - and not be afraid to hit their ego a little bit.

Hayward wasn't a great passer in college but in the pros seems far more capable - so there is hope. But out of both of these guys I haven't seen the decisive play you need to be a star. Pierce wasn't the greatest passer either - but he became well above average and yet knew when he should try to score and drive. He made few great passes - but made lots of decent ones.

I think both guys have the raw offensive skills to be all-stars. Tatum can take and make difficult shots - and can make easy ones too. Brown has great quickness and could easily make a living just driving to the hoop and getting fouled. But can they learn the thinking part of the game.. How to be a better team player on offense and play within Brad's system - yet still be aggressive.

Jury is still out. This is why Brown isn't resigned and people aren't sure if Tatum really will be a star. Highlight clips - they both have the individual moves. But team play? I dunno. Unlike most posters I don't think its a skill problem - its a strategy/tactics issue with them. Brown suffers so much from his **** college experience, IMHO. He learned plenty of faux intellectualism but **** about basketball. Tatum does not have that excuse.. but he is a very young.

I am excited to see what will happen - but it wouldn't shock me at all to see someone like Romeo soar past them both. At the pro level everyone is pretty athletic so you need some basketball smarts to dominate.
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Re: Can Brown/Tatum make leap to all-star level this year? 

Post#52 » by cloverleaf » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:28 pm

GuyClinch wrote:The biggest problem for these two will be Stevens and the offense, IMHO.

He likes a pass friendly offense high BBIQ offense but what we have seen out of these guys is mediocre decision making and poor passing. Because these guys are below average as passers (not Kanter level bad) - they need to be really drilled on making passes when appropriate, picking good shots or good times to drive.

Tatum in particular spends way to much clock time setting up for low percentage shots. Brown will get tentative and start passing on shots he should take and passing when he doesn't need to - or not driving at all. Stevens needs to coach these guys up - and not be afraid to hit their ego a little bit.

Hayward wasn't a great passer in college but in the pros seems far more capable - so there is hope. But out of both of these guys I haven't seen the decisive play you need to be a star. Pierce wasn't the greatest passer either - but he became well above average and yet knew when he should try to score and drive. He made few great passes - but made lots of decent ones.

I think both guys have the raw offensive skills to be all-stars. Tatum can take and make difficult shots - and can make easy ones too. Brown has great quickness and could easily make a living just driving to the hoop and getting fouled. But can they learn the thinking part of the game.. How to be a better team player on offense and play within Brad's system - yet still be aggressive.

Jury is still out. This is why Brown isn't resigned and people aren't sure if Tatum really will be a star. Highlight clips - they both have the individual moves. But team play? I dunno. Unlike most posters I don't think its a skill problem - its a strategy/tactics issue with them. Brown suffers so much from his **** college experience, IMHO. He learned plenty of faux intellectualism but **** about basketball. Tatum does not have that excuse.. but he is a very young.

I am excited to see what will happen - but it wouldn't shock me at all to see someone like Romeo soar past them both. At the pro level everyone is pretty athletic so you need some basketball smarts to dominate.


JB needs more BB smarts and vision in general, but his larger issue than getting timid is just plowing into a crowd for a shot without the wherewithal or ability to make a timely pass out to a teammate, whereas JT needs to be more persistent at taking it to the hoop. And Hayward is a great passer and smart player who will probably take Horford's place in being the secondary playmaker on O.

I don't see Brad as particularly to be holding either Jay back on becoming stars. And the C's as far as I can recall have zero record, for good reason, of extending players on their rookie contracts more than two months before the deadline.

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